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Author Topic: More about Pro engines - Part 9
Viking Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I tend to not be so politically correct sometimes, so what the hell. Charlie, if I am out of line from what you want to see on this post then please edit me or delete.

Engine builders will always have jobs building legal AND illegal motors, there will always be customers for both. All the big names building SM "pro motors" have been building engines for years in other race classes and will continue building for SM or some other class for as long as they want to.

Racing will always have legal AND illegal cars, thats why we have a GCR rulebook 4 inches thick in fine print, as well as protests,tech inspectors, etc.

Steve has opened up the eyes of many as to what can go on inside an engine. Nothing he has shown is anything really new. Coatings, modified deck heights to allow different pistons, modified valve seats,intake porting, etc., these tricks are all old race tricks reapplied to our SM engines.

Guys that have illegal hp will get caught sooner or later and then it is their bad. They are actually easy to spot anyway, just watch the straights or buy a radar gun.

SM has gotten much more competitive which is a great thing! - To be at the top in a National race you must now be a good driver, have a well built car,run tires at the exact optimum tread depth, have a good race strategy, and have a very good maintenance program so you car is always running at 100% -, can a do-it yourselfer do this himself in his own garage at home, yes he can. - Can illegal hp make up for some of this prep ? yes, but not all, and if the top guys are running illegal they will get caught, maybe not today but they will and then they must live with the outcome. Of course, everyone always has an excuse for how that illegal piston,etc. just jumped into their engine, and those things are quickly forgotten anyway.

I'm just gonna post this rather than reread it otherwise I may delete it myself. If I stepped on anyones toes I apologize, no harm was meant to anyone in a personal nor business manner.

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Viking Sjovall
Viking Motorsports

Jim Daniels
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quote:
Originally posted by Viking:
I tend to not be so politically correct sometimes, so what the hell. Charlie, if I am out of line from what you want to see on this post then please edit me or delete.

Engine builders will always have jobs building legal AND illegal motors, there will always be customers for both. All the big names building SM "pro motors" have been building engines for years in other race classes and will continue building for SM or some other class for as long as they want to.

Racing will always have legal AND illegal cars, thats why we have a GCR rulebook 4 inches thick in fine print, as well as protests,tech inspectors, etc.

Steve has opened up the eyes of many as to what can go on inside an engine. Nothing he has shown is anything really new. Coatings, modified deck heights to allow different pistons, modified valve seats,intake porting, etc., these tricks are all old race tricks reapplied to our SM engines.

Guys that have illegal hp will get caught sooner or later and then it is their bad. They are actually easy to spot anyway, just watch the straights or buy a radar gun.

SM has gotten much more competitive which is a great thing! - To be at the top in a National race you must now be a good driver, have a well built car,run tires at the exact optimum tread depth, have a good race strategy, and have a very good maintenance program so you car is always running at 100% -, can a do-it yourselfer do this himself in his own garage at home, yes he can. - Can illegal hp make up for some of this prep ? yes, but not all, and if the top guys are running illegal they will get caught, maybe not today but they will and then they must live with the outcome. Of course, everyone always has an excuse for how that illegal piston,etc. just jumped into their engine, and those things are quickly forgotten anyway.

I'm just gonna post this rather than reread it otherwise I may delete it myself. If I stepped on anyones toes I apologize, no harm was meant to anyone in a personal nor business manner.

A perfect post, no harm at all, well said!

Reading through some of the search topics you will find much more harsh comments, all worthy of the read.

Charlie James Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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No problem with this post. Just trying to keep personal attacks to a minimum.

--------------------
www.SafeRacer.com
"Life is short, Eternity is forever"

Jim Daniels
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quote:
Originally posted by Tom Scheifler:
I will wait to hear back from Charlie (I sent him a PM) before I respond publicly to JD's comment regarding my post.

...

I interpreted JD's response as a statement that I should "get out of the kitchen". JD clarified for me that I misinterpreted his statement.

NO NO, sorry late I was at the boat today. I agree with what you said! The motor builders need to take the heat that comes after they make the statements you mentioned. Being one sided is not what SM.com is about.

Steve, great series!!!!

vanarkel Verified Driver
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I'm going to disagree with Mr. Viking and Mr. Daniels.

The exponential commitment needed to be competive these days is not a "great thing".

Tripling the cost of the cars and multiplying the time needed has benefited only commercial interests.

And not the average racer.

As a result Spec miata has gone downhill.

Were this not a race series built and differentiated from other race products because it was designed to attract the average racer I would not be saying these things.

But that's where it's strength was. That's where it's spectacular growth came from. That's where its heart was.

And then it was hijacked by the wrong people.

I don't know one person who's doing this now that can honestly look around and say that the last couple of years have been an improvement.

We are seeing fewer new guys entering. Costs escalating. And more and more cars for sale.

These are not healthy indicators.

The last couple of years have been a particular mess.

But it does seem to be slowly improving from not long ago when it was likely at it's worst. Cheater cams, cheater pistons, cheater who knows what and various other components that ultimately add up to cheater drivers.

Everyone complicit in that behavior can rationalize all you want. And you will. And you have.

But in the end that's what it comes down to. Cheating. It lessens the sport significantly, but it lessens the individual that chooses to follow that path even more so.

On a more positive note we owe Steve and others a big thank you for their quest to help to dislodge these elements from our race series.


jh

steveracer Verified Driver
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Boy am I naieve.

I just ordered a new compliant helmet, driving suit and the new boring clutch parts.

If I don't open the boxes, I can still return them and sell the car and get out can't I?

And I was really looking forward to some competitive driving again after a year off...

--------------------
"To punish me for my contempt for authority, fate made me an authority myself"

Albert Einstein

TimBuck Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
I'll believe it when I believe it.

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Vanarkel- I must take exception to part of your statement. SM suspension kits are still selling VERY well. Last time I checked we were still averaging more than one PER DAY. Spec Miata is very healthy as a class.

It has evolved, yes. But you can still have just as much fun in a $7k-$10k car.

There are actually very few cars for sale (percentage-wise).

As for the cheating thing... Blame NASCAR. They have brought it to the sport on a grand scale, popularized it, and practically made heroes of their biggest cheaters.

I wholeheartedly agree with you that cheating has lessened our sport.

That said, I am the FIRST to look for any advantage within a given ruleset. Give me a rulebook and I will PICK IT APART!!!

[Big Grin]

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Tim Buck

MAZDASPEED Motorsports Development
Mazda North American Operations
phone (800) 435-2508
fax (949) 222-2650

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TimBuck Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
I'll believe it when I believe it.

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Hey Bob, maybe you should post pics of those lightened pistons you found in my 2001 motor...

--------------------
Tim Buck

MAZDASPEED Motorsports Development
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Viking Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by vanarkel:
I'm going to disagree with Mr. Viking and Mr. Daniels.
The exponential commitment needed to be competive these days is not a "great thing".

On a more positive note we owe Steve and others a big thank you for their quest to help to dislodge these elements from our race series.
jh

I respect your disagreement with my opinion, and understand the foundation behind it in regards to SM.

To further my thoughts please consider the differences between people in ANY form of competition, or even life for that matter, is the level of commitment they are willing to go to get their personal desired results. I have seen this from running marathons to racing cars. There is nothing wrong with someone willing to go to a higher level of committment as long as it is within the rules.
Winning in SM now requires 100% from driver and car, if you have 99.9% from any factor then odds are you will not be on the podium that day. Competition is good.

A few feel that starting with a car that is 110% will make up for their driving 95% and allow them to win. Obviously some have been willing to lower their morals some to win, which is bad for SM but has always been a part of ANY competition(think steriods in running). They are easy to spot though, and odds are you know exactly who those are in your region, you know the guy pulling everyone down the straight and then blowing the corners.
Steve has been doing a great job exposing some of these examples,of which all are very old tricks. - I commend his work as well.

Have a great week !
Viking

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Viking Sjovall
Viking Motorsports

Viking Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Rereading my post reminded me of the old breakfast joke.
The chicken and the pig both take a important roll in the meal, but the pig....... he is committed !

--------------------
Viking Sjovall
Viking Motorsports

TimBuck Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
I'll believe it when I believe it.

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Well said Viking!

Homer: Are you saying you're never going to eat any animal again? What about bacon?
Lisa: No.
Homer: Ham?
Lisa: No.
Homer: Pork chops?
Lisa: Dad, those all come from the same animal.
Homer: Heh heh heh. Ooh, yeah, right, Lisa. A wonderful, magical animal.

--------------------
Tim Buck

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Dusty Bottoms Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
99 all the way!

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Pig quotes!

Vincent: Want some bacon?
Jules: No man, I don't eat pork.
Vincent: Are you Jewish?
Jules: Nah, I ain't Jewish, I just don't dig on swine, that's all.
Vincent: Why not?
Jules: Pigs are filthy animals. I don't eat filthy animals.
Vincent: Bacon tastes gooood. Pork chops taste gooood.
Jules: Hey, sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie, but I'd never know 'cause I wouldn't eat the filthy mrfer. Pigs sleep and root in $#it. That's a filthy animal. I ain't eat nothin' that ain't got enough sense enough to disregard its own faeces.
Vincent: How about a dog? Dogs eats its own feces.
Jules: I don't eat dog either.
Vincent: Yeah, but do you consider a dog to be a filthy animal?
Jules: I wouldn't go so far as to call a dog filthy but they're definitely dirty. But, a dog's got personality. Personality goes a long way.
Vincent: Ah, so by that rationale, if a pig had a better personality, he would cease to be a filthy animal. Is that true?
Jules: Well we'd have to be talkin' about one charmin' mrfin' pig. I mean he'd have to be ten times more charmin' than that Arnold on Green Acres, you know what I'm sayin'?

--------------------
"Your victory is tainted! Asterisk! Asterisk!!!"--Lisa Simpson

TimBuck Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
I'll believe it when I believe it.

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mayonnaise, brain detail, honey-bunny, Zed's dead... definitely a quote-rich environment.

--------------------
Tim Buck

MAZDASPEED Motorsports Development
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Casey Z Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Antonio Garza:
Pig quotes!

Jules: I wouldn't go so far as to call a dog filthy but they're definitely dirty. But, a dog's got personality. Personality goes a long way.

And that my friends is why we will always have pro motors. We may get mad that they $hit in the house every now and again, but we like them and the are good for going after our on track enemies.

That and most of them seem to be pretty darn funny. Personality goes a long way.

Hope you all see the jest in this post as that is how it was intended...

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----------------
Z Brothers Racing / East Street Auto

Casey Z - 1.6 Kettle
MidDiv National #13

Steven Holloway Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Blue Eyes, Aquarius, hates being squeezed to the grass in SowDiv!

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My favorite:

Spider caught a fly

--------------------
If you can't fix it with a hammer, it's got electrical problems.

Bob Thornton - Race Engineering Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
When the eagles are silent, the parrots begin to jabber. - Sir Winston Churchill

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How about I post e mail of people asking for cheated up stuff? have lots of detailed info.
Don't know why I haven't done it, talk about sinking ships.
Just setting back watching for now.

--------------------
Bob Thornton
http://www.raceengineering.org
Race Engineering Championship Winning Engines

Viking Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Bob Thornton - Race Engineering:
How about I post e mail of people asking for cheated up stuff? have lots of detailed info.
Don't know why I haven't done it, talk about sinking ships.
Just setting back watching for now.

I think it would be a good thing, although I would recommend leaving out the names if you'd like to stay in business.

Bob Thornton - Race Engineering Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
When the eagles are silent, the parrots begin to jabber. - Sir Winston Churchill

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When I post it (or should I say if I post it) it will tell all.
As for staying in business, I get at least 2 job offers from cup busch and truck teams every month and to run a engine program for a NASCAR team pays about 1 mill per year.
So as You can guess this Miata stuff gets old.

--------------------
Bob Thornton
http://www.raceengineering.org
Race Engineering Championship Winning Engines

Jim Boemler Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Bob Thornton - Race Engineering:
How about I post e mail of people asking for cheated up stuff? have lots of detailed info.
Don't know why I haven't done it, talk about sinking ships.
Just setting back watching for now.

Do it -- I dare ya. [Wink]

jim

--------------------
Just a clown

Jason Holland Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Mediocrity rules!

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I triple dog dare ya.

Jason

--------------------
Jason Holland
Semi-interested civilian

IPRESS Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Antonio Garza:
Pig quotes!

Vincent: Want some bacon?
Jules: No man, I don't eat pork.
Vincent: Are you Jewish?
Jules: Nah, I ain't Jewish, I just don't dig on swine, that's all.
Vincent: Why not?
Jules: Pigs are filthy animals. I don't eat filthy animals.
Vincent: Bacon tastes gooood. Pork chops taste gooood.
Jules: Hey, sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie, but I'd never know 'cause I wouldn't eat the filthy mrfer. Pigs sleep and root in $#it. That's a filthy animal. I ain't eat nothin' that ain't got enough sense enough to disregard its own faeces.
Vincent: How about a dog? Dogs eats its own feces.
Jules: I don't eat dog either.
Vincent: Yeah, but do you consider a dog to be a filthy animal?
Jules: I wouldn't go so far as to call a dog filthy but they're definitely dirty. But, a dog's got personality. Personality goes a long way.
Vincent: Ah, so by that rationale, if a pig had a better personality, he would cease to be a filthy animal. Is that true?
Jules: Well we'd have to be talkin' about one charmin' mrfin' pig. I mean he'd have to be ten times more charmin' than that Arnold on Green Acres, you know what I'm sayin'?

You guys will love this:http://www.team1200.com/tgor/video_viewer_jules.asp

--------------------
Mac Spikes
IPRESS Racing
MER
East Street Auto
SAFERACER
Hoosier
Carbotech
MotorSport Ranch
Cresson, Texas
"To hell with you Gen. Sheridan...I 'll take Texas!"

LOREN WALLACE IS MY HERO!

Tom Scheifler Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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[rolling on floor laughin] Freakin, hill-lari-ous. [rolling on floor laughin]

--------------------
http://www.plainoldgas.com

TimBuck Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
I'll believe it when I believe it.

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oh DAMN!!! THAT was funny!

--------------------
Tim Buck

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IPRESS Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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You gotta love the expression on the other coaches face...... that's even before his team got the Englewood Jack!

Mark McCallister Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Just graduated from novice to rookie!!

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quote:
Originally posted by IPRESS:
You guys will love this:
http://www.team1200.com/tgor/video_viewer_jules.asp
[/QB]

I was trying to figure out how to watch the Juan Pablo Drago video on specmiatavideos.com while listening to the audio from the above clip...no luck yet... [Wink]

MiataRacer31 Verified Driver
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I'm in favor of changing the rules so that we all must used sealed motors. Small cost up front, but nothing like what it costs for a "pro motor". When I started racing SM in 2002, I won consistently and with a 104K-mile old junkyard motor no less. The next year I had to get a new motor and opted for a $1650 crate motor (yeah, that was dealer cost). I raced with that motor for the next three years, essentially making no changes to the car and consistently finished lower and lower. Last year I ran two SCCA national races at my home track, expecting to finish in the top 5 at least. Nope. I finished 9th and 10th out of about 22. I realized what everybody was talking about with regard to the above posts. I could hang with the front runners through all of the turns, but not on the straights, even if I had greater exit speed. All the tuning in the world wouldn't help me. Rather than spend $$$$ on a new pro-built motor, that wouldn't even be their "top shelf" unit, I sold the car. So, for now, I'm out. I'll watch what happens in the next year. If we get the sealed motor rule (ala MX-5 Cup), I'm back in, and I'll expect to be back at the front [Smile]

--------------------
Dale
http://users.zoominternet.net/~blacktopracing

D.B. Cutler Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Sweet !! When the seal the engines you can buy my car cause then I'll be out. [Big Grin]

Amazing how nature balances things out... [scratchchin]

Or, I guess I could keep the car, buy five sealed engines and then pick the peach out of the bunch... [banghead]

MiataRacer31 Verified Driver
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Why would I buy your car, which wouldn't have a sealed motor, if this happens?

The difference in power/torque among five sealed motor wouldn't give you a "peach" unless you though 0-1rwhp is worth the expense.

I'd rather spend $3000 on a new sealed motor that will last longer than $7000 on a "pro motor" that will last one season. Plus, it would be a step in the right direction that is the class philosophy.

--------------------
Dale
http://users.zoominternet.net/~blacktopracing

TimBuck Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
I'll believe it when I believe it.

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So who's going to seal them? Will they be dyno'd before sealing? What kind of seals would be used? Will there be dynos at the track to check parity in sealed motors? What do you expect a new, sealed crate motor to cost? Will used engines be sealed too?

Etcetera

--------------------
Tim Buck

MAZDASPEED Motorsports Development
Mazda North American Operations
phone (800) 435-2508
fax (949) 222-2650

zoom-zoom!

disquek Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by TimBuck:
So who's going to seal them? Will they be dyno'd before sealing? What kind of seals would be used? Will there be dynos at the track to check parity in sealed motors? What do you expect a new, sealed crate motor to cost? Will used engines be sealed too?

Etcetera

It would be interesting if someone actually put together a business plan and took it to Eric at Enterprises.

They do it with SRF now. So they already have processes and experitise.

If they could make money doing it, why wouldn't they?

-Kyle

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by MiataRacer31:
I'm in favor of changing the rules so that we all must used sealed motors. Small cost up front, but nothing like what it costs for a "pro motor". When I started racing SM in 2002, I won consistently and with a 104K-mile old junkyard motor no less. The next year I had to get a new motor and opted for a $1650 crate motor (yeah, that was dealer cost). I raced with that motor for the next three years, essentially making no changes to the car and consistently finished lower and lower. Last year I ran two SCCA national races at my home track, expecting to finish in the top 5 at least. Nope. I finished 9th and 10th out of about 22. I realized what everybody was talking about with regard to the above posts. I could hang with the front runners through all of the turns, but not on the straights, even if I had greater exit speed. All the tuning in the world wouldn't help me. Rather than spend $$$$ on a new pro-built motor, that wouldn't even be their "top shelf" unit, I sold the car. So, for now, I'm out. I'll watch what happens in the next year. If we get the sealed motor rule (ala MX-5 Cup), I'm back in, and I'll expect to be back at the front [Smile]

What a completely pompous and arrogant post this is...
I don't even know you, but I do get tired of hearing this and beleive there is a little more to the story? [Razz] I believe I raced against your car at Mid Oho in the summer of 2005 when I went up there to see Stearns and Bennett. I think Greg Stasioski drove it that weekend and beat us all, badly I might add on Saturday and went off on Sunday. Isn't that also the car Greg drove to win the NASA National Championship? So the car was up for those challenges, but was only 9th or 10th place car when you drove it? Don't you think you could at least give a little glimpse in the mirror? [flamed] The competition level has stepped up tremendously in last two years.
Jim

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Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
jdrago1@aol.com
2006-2007 Mid-West Division
07,09 June Sprints Champion

EAST STREET RACING

D.B. Cutler Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by MiataRacer31:
Why would I buy your car, which wouldn't have a sealed motor, if this happens?

The difference in power/torque among five sealed motor wouldn't give you a "peach" unless you though 0-1rwhp is worth the expense.

I'd rather spend $3000 on a new sealed motor that will last longer than $7000 on a "pro motor" that will last one season. Plus, it would be a step in the right direction that is the class philosophy.

Ok, I'll sell you the roller and keep my brand spanken' new pro engine for a street car.

But seriously, why would you think that the sealed motor would last longer than a pro motor ? I don't see any reason why a pro motor wouldn't last as long as any other motor given the same duty cycle. Maybe aside from some fancy valve job, which would be illegal.

D.B. Cutler Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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One question to the general community:
Doe anyone know how much the SRF guys are currently paying for a sealed motor from SCCA ?

MiataRacer31 Verified Driver
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quote:
But seriously, why would you think that the sealed motor would last longer than a pro motor ? I don't see any reason why a pro motor wouldn't last as long as any other motor given the same duty cycle. Maybe aside from some fancy valve job, which would be illegal.
Just going off observations, that's all. I know alot of people running crate motors and haven't had any problem, other than being able to keep up with those runnign pro motors. On the other hand, I've known many people who have had problems with known-brand pro-built motors. Perhaps a poll or a show of hands of some sort would shed more light on this?

Also, I the SRF guys are happy with their sealed engine rule. Didn't they push for it themselves? I'm not sure of what they cost.

--------------------
Dale
http://users.zoominternet.net/~blacktopracing

TimBuck Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
I'll believe it when I believe it.

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Yeah, but do you know how much a SRF sealed motor is?

--------------------
Tim Buck

MAZDASPEED Motorsports Development
Mazda North American Operations
phone (800) 435-2508
fax (949) 222-2650

zoom-zoom!

John the Impaler Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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"Sealed engines" forces all in the class to pay for the suspicions of a few. When the existing 'protest/bond/teardown' system is rarely used by those who complain, why should the rest of the class subsidize those suspicions ?

And for those wondering, a sealed SRF engine is the most expensive Ford Escort engine you'll ever buy. As an SRF owner, I know the benefits...but I also know the cost. Be careful what you wish for....

Steve Scheifler Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by D.B. Cutler:
One question to the general community:
Doe anyone know how much the SRF guys are currently paying for a sealed motor from SCCA ?

Nope, but I stumbled on this really cool WWW thing... [Wink]

REMAN ENGINE INCLUDES $400.00 CORE - $3,540.00

NEW ENGINE ASSEMBLY - $4,265.00

And the sealed trans is less than I've spent for a decent requild on ours.

disquek Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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To rebuild and seal an existing SRF engine is $2,800.

-Kyle

Steve Scheifler Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by John the Impaler:
"Sealed engines" forces all in the class to pay for the suspicions of a few. When the existing 'protest/bond/teardown' system is rarely used by those who complain, why should the rest of the class subsidize those suspicions ?

And for those wondering, a sealed SRF engine is the most expensive Ford Escort engine you'll ever buy. As an SRF owner, I know the benefits...but I also know the cost. Be careful what you wish for....

I don't disagree John. I would very much prefer to think more people would play by the rules including intent, but the truth is that they never will. I'm not advocating sealed engines for the same reason you don't want them, it would harm more people than it helps (or at least more than want such help). There really are a lot of guys and gals who aren't particularly worried about these issues because they just enjoy the close racing wherever they land in the pack. Not all of us can accept that, but we can't forget them when promoting big changes.

More than once I've raised the idea of an "elite" class within the class (SME?) and I'm thinking about that again. Sealed engines that are probably not quite as strong as the pros today so you really need to earn it against the non-E cars. Think of it as an extra title to shoot for with more prestige than the standard class.

Jason Holland Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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BTW, from Enterprises...

We sell Remanufactured engines for $3540, the engine comes as a long block assembly, which means it does not include accessory items such as intake manifold, flywheel, coil, etc... A complete engine rebuild is $2895 and a top end rebuild is $1740. All prices do not include shipping costs.

--------------------
Jason Holland
Semi-interested civilian

TimBuck Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
I'll believe it when I believe it.

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BTW: Regarding the price question, etc. They were rhetorical questions meant to get those who are asking about sealed motors to CAREFULLY consider what they ask for.

But thanks for the answers anyway

--------------------
Tim Buck

MAZDASPEED Motorsports Development
Mazda North American Operations
phone (800) 435-2508
fax (949) 222-2650

zoom-zoom!

Jason Holland Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Mediocrity rules!

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Well if they were rhetorical questions... I have one as well.....

Do you know how much less a sealed engine costs than a pro motor?

Jason

--------------------
Jason Holland
Semi-interested civilian

CarbotechDanny Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim Drago:
quote:
Originally posted by MiataRacer31:
I'm in favor of changing the rules so that we all must used sealed motors. Small cost up front, but nothing like what it costs for a "pro motor". When I started racing SM in 2002, I won consistently and with a 104K-mile old junkyard motor no less. The next year I had to get a new motor and opted for a $1650 crate motor (yeah, that was dealer cost). I raced with that motor for the next three years, essentially making no changes to the car and consistently finished lower and lower. Last year I ran two SCCA national races at my home track, expecting to finish in the top 5 at least. Nope. I finished 9th and 10th out of about 22. I realized what everybody was talking about with regard to the above posts. I could hang with the front runners through all of the turns, but not on the straights, even if I had greater exit speed. All the tuning in the world wouldn't help me. Rather than spend $$$$ on a new pro-built motor, that wouldn't even be their "top shelf" unit, I sold the car. So, for now, I'm out. I'll watch what happens in the next year. If we get the sealed motor rule (ala MX-5 Cup), I'm back in, and I'll expect to be back at the front [Smile]

What a completely pompous and arrogant post this is...
I don't even know you, but I do get tired of hearing this and beleive there is a little more to the story? [Razz] I believe I raced against your car at Mid Oho in the summer of 2005 when I went up there to see Stearns and Bennett. I think Greg Stasioski drove it that weekend and beat us all, badly I might add on Saturday and went off on Sunday. Isn't that also the car Greg drove to win the NASA National Championship? So the car was up for those challenges, but was only 9th or 10th place car when you drove it? Don't you think you could at least give a little glimpse in the mirror? [flamed] The competition level has stepped up tremendously in last two years.
Jim

JDPPS!!! [Big Grin]

--------------------
Danny Puskar (push-car)
Carbotech Performance Brakes
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Concord, NC 28027
877-899-5024
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http://www.ctbrakes.com

Puskar Motorsports
Spec Miata specialists
Chesterland, OH
216-406-8140

compaddict
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Off topic but funny. Pulp Fiction the short version.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-rXEQ4twCo

Vince

RYGAR Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
"The Unethical"

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That's F'n hilarious Vince! haha!
This one I think is better.. (only cuz it's one of my favorite movies)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gU2ZgaQ_H-Y

--------------------
Ryan G. #29
http://www.RentMoneyRacing.com

vanarkel Verified Driver
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A few more thoughts:

Kyle, that winter workout has been good for you, your pecs in particular.

Viking. Sound thinking. I think we agree 99% and disagree at most 1%.

Bob. While it would be fascinating reading to hear the specific requests from motor cheaters. I suspect it's best for all that we never read that material, as there are some truths better left untold.

Jim, I think we have disagreed on almost every element of sm's evolution for the last 4 years. We clearly have different approaches and goals. You supported: Open tires. Pro motors.
$$$ clutches. My assumption is you thought these elements would lead to success. Perhaps they have. But at a cost.

My opinion was that people in need of such expenditures have no shortage of race venues to choose from. LIke spending $20,000 on a clutch? Go race a DSR.

What could make sm unique among motor sports offerings is ease of an effective and competitive build and the relative inability to fund your way to the top.

I support every measure to make that happen. And every element that takes the cars out of race shops and back in people's home garages.

Here's a thought the borders on the obvious. Why not lift the entire ruleset and approach from the mx5 cup cars and apply it to sm.

I've always thought their rules were more reflective of fending off the negatives of racing. In fact, my guess is they learned what not to do in the mx5 cup cars from what they saw going on in sm.

Should be easy enough to do. And by easy enough I mean a massive pain in the rear for about a year and then cake every year that follows.

If you can do it for one mazda you can do it for another, right Tim ?

No, I don't like sealed motors. No i don't like that in many ways it complicates the format for the home garage guy. Yes I would rather see dynos at every event. And data acq in every car that could sort out excess g's and red flag a car.

But until someone finds a simple way to manage what comes out of the car we need to manage what goes in it.


jh

D.B. Cutler Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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[soapbox] I don't know. I still think that we're better off with more competition among suppliers than with giving one company a monopoly.

Take tires for example, people wanted a spec tire and now we have one. So now Toyo is raising prices and we're stuck with paying the increases. Plus the tire contingencies that came with the deal mean that the front of the field gets free tires all the time. [Eek!] We would have been far better off with an open tire rule and let the manufacturers slug it out for our bucks.

Getting back to engines, I think we'd be better off without the sealed engines but with rules which spell out the specifications of the parts. Again avoiding giving someone a monopoly over our engines.

Steve's on the right track. Define what a legal camshaft is, it's lift, it's duration, etc. Define what a legal valve is, it shape, it's weight, etc. Nail this stuff down and the grey areas go away and then the prices for this stuff will drop. [scratchchin]

My point is: give both the home builder and the pro builder a reasonable set of boundries to work within and then we can go about building engines to those specifications.

I also liked Steve's idea of a DIY on engine building. If the specifics of the internals was defined then I could see guys being able to build engines at home which could run up front. Guys in Club Ford do it all the time. It narrows or eliminates the gap between home builder and pro.

One other thing. I know it sucks that a person can't show up at a race with a junkyard engine and expect to compete for a win. [banghead] But as this class ages, you can't expect it to stand still. The nature of racing is continous improvement. Guys are going to replace old worn parts and old worn engines with new stuff and when they do the cars are going to get better and therefore the competition is going to get tougher.

Ok, I'll get off my soapbox now. I've got a racecar that I need to go and improve...

MiataRacer31 Verified Driver
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All I'm saying is, sooner or later everybody has to replace their engines. Why not save a couple grand over a pro-motor and get a sealed crate motor staight from Mazda? Lower cost, more likely better longevity, and racing based on talent, not budgets. It works for other classes, why not ours? High-dollar clutches were outlawed, why not high-dollar engines?

Obviously, I'm not on here constantly, so please keep the bashing to a minimum [Smash]

--------------------
Dale
http://users.zoominternet.net/~blacktopracing

jigou Verified Driver
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Fresh, tight crate motor straight from mazda = 110 hp.

Broken-in and well-loved crate motor = 117 hp.

That's a larger gap than I'm looking at from my current motor to a Pro lump.

Jarrod

--------------------
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Willie the Tard Verified Driver
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Mr Thornton if you get 2+ one million dollar job offers a month why do you take one? Are you making more in your current job? You are not retarded are you? I just do not understand but that is not new for me -- I am retarded.

your's truly
Willie the tard

 
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