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Author Topic: Hoosiers, 3 hours
Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by G Bush:
[Greg
Member number <1000
Posts >1000 and almost all usefull or funny [/QB]

Ya sure by your dogs eyes look like he is posesssed! I wouldn't let him sleep in the house with you!


Carlos G
When will we see you and Carlos D back in the SM cars?

--------------------
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RYGAR Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I guess my thinking is (and I'm thinking about cents, not tenths):

We as drivers do have some pull...We can get some test results, pick the top 2 or 3 tires that suit our needs as far as longevity, speed and grip go, then ask these companies: Who wants our business? Who wants their logo on our cars -- and our dollars in their pockets? Let them fight for US instead of US fighting for THEM. This can bring the tire costs down...

I think we can get a good tire at a good price if we stick together as a group and stick with the spec tire. Power to the people!

Cheers,
-Ryan

--------------------
Ryan G. #29
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Dusty Bottoms Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyle Disque:

Also, I'd submit that a tire that has its golden moment at a time other than sticker might actually be a good thing. EVERY tire has a golden moment. There are NO tires that are 100% consistent.

-Kyle

This is the point I was trying to make.

Regarding my post asking if anyone had shaved a Hoosier, here's why I ask...and no the only reason it could be faster is not just because it's lighter. Less rubber means the rubber will heat up in a different way. It will also mean it should have less rolling resistance as well. Finally, like Kyle said above, every tire has its golden moment. From the SCCA tire test, the last Hoosier and the Toyo BOTH were fastest somewhere mid-cycle. The question is, why were they faster? Was it because they got thinner? Did they then get slower past that point because they started loosing grip?

To those of you that don't believe how much difference cycles can make, at Mid Ohio, even for myself...mid-pack at best, it was 2 seconds difference between old Toyos and new ones (new ones being slower).

So I'm not saying the Hoosiers are not better, I just don't like people using arguments if they don't back it up. Just like y'all get annoyed if someone says the Hoosier is not good for the class without trying it.

This is worth repeating:

quote:
Originally posted by Kyle Disque:

Also, I'd submit that a tire that has its golden moment at a time other than sticker might actually be a good thing. EVERY tire has a golden moment. There are NO tires that are 100% consistent.

-Kyle


--------------------
"Your victory is tainted! Asterisk! Asterisk!!!"--Lisa Simpson

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Is that you Karl?

--------------------
Mac Spikes
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim Drago:

Carlos G
When will we see you and Carlos D back in the SM cars? [/QB]

Soon. With any luck, will be at Sebring-Homestead in January.
Working on the right deal... leaning towards a 1.6, waiting for any new rule changes ... will soon be calling Reverend Bob at the Holy Temple of RE Horsepower in Salisbury.
The Dalai Lama at KinSu is on the list except brother Rob says he's very busy with their GA program. Cousin D will also drive.
Will stay in touch. Be well,
Carlos G.

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quote:
First, the top guys buy the Hoosiers and test them. Then they buy a different size set of Hoosiers to see if they're faster. Then they buy the Kumhos to see if they're faster. Then they buy a different size set of Kumhos to see if they're faster. Then they buy the BFGs to see if they're faster. Then they buy a different size set of BFGs to see if they're faster. Then, when they're done all of their hugely expensive testing (remember, they're not just paying for the tires -- they're also paying for the test time in money, time, and effort), they buy enough sets of whatever tire worked best to last them the season.

Meanwhile, the guys who don't have the budget to do all that testing take a wild guess at what will work and run those. And since the likelihood of them guessing right is relatively low, the gap between them and the well-funded front-runners widens.

So, what's the end result? The big budget guys spend more. The small budget guys fall father behind. And this helps how?

Ummm, maybe walk by the "fast guy's" car in the paddock and see what tire they're using and copy it. You get the benefit of their research for free.

The thing that burns me about the Toyo deal is that it benefits basically 12 drivers (top 6 each NASA Champs and Runoffs). The other 98.8% of us don't get sh*t.

-miata88

jigou Verified Driver
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The concept of "have the tire companies bid on the contract" is a great one until you step back and actually take a look at the tire companies involved.

One of the tire companies being bandied around in these discussions just plain doesn't have the resources (aka $$$$) to throw at the SCCA to beg to be on the cars.

The rest? They've got significant chunks of market share in other areas, and those chunks of market give then enough discretionary dollars that they and their marketing departments can throw the dollars at SCCA whenever they decide it's important to them.

Heck, Goodyear probably has enough loose change in their petty cash drawer to BUY Hoosier.

And Hankook has certainly tossed some bucks at SM in the past. Ask the Pro SM guys (pre-2006) about the tires they were running.

Do we REALLY want to go the route of bidding it out??

--------------------
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miata42
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:poof x3:

you guys are worse than the FCC.

since Kyle says that every tire has it's golden cycle, you should ask yourselves how many cycles you can get out of each tire within 1/2 second of that golden cycle.

take that # of cycles / tire cost and you have yourself at least somewhat of a starting point in making comparisons of what each tire really costs to run.

Dusty Bottoms Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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http://www.nitrodyno.com/pictures/tiredata.jpg

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miata42
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good time to bring that back Antonio. now if we could just get one for the new Toyo compound. [Wink]

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quote:
Originally posted by jigou:
The rest? They've got significant chunks of market share in other areas, and those chunks of market give then enough discretionary dollars that they and their marketing departments can throw the dollars at SCCA whenever they decide it's important to them.

Do we REALLY want to go the route of bidding it out??

Absolutely not. Well said Jarod.

If it becomes a bidding war the only people who win are the ones who receive the check. When the SCCA received that BIG check from Toyo it didn't benefit us (the drivers) one bit.

Giving the tire deal to the company that has the deepest pockets is not what's best for this class.

--------------------
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Dusty Bottoms Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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John Doe, you can think whatever you want about what I'm arguing for. I just want the arguments people are making to be valid. Just like there may be a new Toyo compound, there have been 2 Hoosier compounds since then.

Just to clarify:
I'm for a spec tire
I don't care which spec tire, as long as it shows a graph like the Toyo or Hoosier, but would like to extend the testing to 24 cycles and pick the one that looks the best over those 24 cycles.

--------------------
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miata42
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and I think that would be a fair compromise for everyone Antonio, as long as the selection is not based on lump-sum check to the club.

i don't think i'm debating any points you have made.

Dusty Bottoms Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by miata42:
and I think that would be a fair compromise for everyone Antonio, as long as the selection is not based on lump-sum check to the club.

i don't think i'm debating any points you have made.

I agree with you, and I'll add that I would like to remove contingency and track support as criteria, instead, I'd add a category of how easy it is to get (i.e. order from Tire Rack, Tire Shoppe, etc.), and real price (i.e. price everyone gets, not just the sponsored guys...because there are some tires out there, that show a disparity between public prices, and what some people are saying they pay for them.)

quote:
Originally posted by miata42:

i don't think i'm debating any points you have made.

There's still a chance...I have a feeling you'll debate me on my above points. [Big Grin]

--------------------
"Your victory is tainted! Asterisk! Asterisk!!!"--Lisa Simpson

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quote:
Originally posted by d mathias:
Ummm, maybe walk by the "fast guy's" car in the paddock and see what tire they're using and copy it. You get the benefit of their research for free.

That isn't completely true. Different tires work better for different cars, setups, and driving styles. For example, the Kumho V710 is more tolerant of large slip angles and minimal camber than the Hoosier A6. For that reason, what's optimal for the fast guy isn't necessarily optimal for you. Also, what do you do if the fast guys aren't all running the same tire? There were three different tires represented in the top five SSB finishers at this year's Runoffs, for example.

Don't get me wrong -- I'm not saying going to an open tire would be a catastrophe, and some of the arguments above apply even when there's a spec tire. I am highly skeptical of the benefits claimed on this thread, though, since in autocross open tires widen the cost and speed gap between the front-runners and midpackers, not the other way around. Also, why should tires be treated differently from any other component? Why not open shocks, springs, and wheels? Why Spec Miata instead of ITA?

--------------------
Stephen Hui - '95 SM #86, Northwest / Oregon Region SCCA

Jim Daniels
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Spec tire = big check due to forced sales = not good for us.

IF the tire was selected because it was the best for us in every way then they asked for some cash and that cash came from marketing budgets and not via tire price increases, cost cutting measures such as no support or compound changes, after the test, with customers having zero say, that would be great.

Nothing close to that is what we have. Debating which tire is better is a great mind trick to avoid the actual problem we have.

Dusty Bottoms Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Does anyone really know if there was an actual big check written (other than multiple smaller checks written to winners in national races?)

--------------------
"Your victory is tainted! Asterisk! Asterisk!!!"--Lisa Simpson

Jim Boemler Verified Driver
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I wonder what kind of dark rotary-wing vehicle would have been used to deliver such a check? [Wink]

jim

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Jason Holland Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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It's the same dark rotary-wing vehicle that delivered the memo calling for cuts in support, increases in prices and a change in compound.

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Jason Holland
Semi-interested civilian

miata42
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quote:
Originally posted by Antonio Garza:
I agree with you, and I'll add that I would like to remove contingency and track support as criteria, instead, I'd add a category of how easy it is to get (i.e. order from Tire Rack, Tire Shoppe, etc.), and real price (i.e. price everyone gets, not just the sponsored guys...because there are some tires out there, that show a disparity between public prices, and what some people are saying they pay for them.)

There's still a chance...I have a feeling you'll debate me on my above points. [Big Grin]

agreed. except for the trackside support thing. i think that should be a factor, but certainly down the line after cost, # of competitive cycles, and overall availability.

the way the contingency is right now is stupid. just lower the cost/tire by $5 for everyone.

PS - the check doesn't have to be written directly to SCCA for SM Spec Tire. It might show up somewhere else, like advertising for pro racing perhaps.

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BAAAAAAAAAA ....
the sound of sheep being led over the cliff's edge .... again !
[boggled]

Jim Boemler Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Jason Holland:
It's the same dark rotary-wing vehicle that delivered the memo calling for cuts in support, increases in prices and a change in compound.

At least locally, support has increased, and pricing is about flat. I don't think anybody has proven a change in compound, although it does seem that as I go faster, the tires go away sooner. Does that mean the tires got better, or worse? [Wink]

jim

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Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Antonio Garza:
Does anyone really know if there was an actual big check written (other than multiple smaller checks written to winners in national races?)

What I remember is that The check written to World Challenge was a lot bigger when Toyo was awarded the SM contract

--------------------
Jim Drago
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EAST STREET RACING

RYGAR Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Different tire brands and performance aside... I have a question while we're on the subject of tires (that's probably been asked before):

What about bulk purchasing?

Can't we get together at a local/regional level and buy tires once or twice a year at wholesale prices? If we get a LARGE order going from the drivers (maybe 40-100 sets), can't we cut out the middle man all together? Does anyone know if any region ever tried to put something like this together?

If we could get these babies at wholesale prices, we could save money and/or buy MORE tires...
Just a thought...

--------------------
Ryan G. #29
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miata42
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quote:
Originally posted by guest driver:
BAAAAAAAAAA ....
the sound of sheep being led over the cliff's edge .... again !
[boggled]

i agree with you, but the masses will write their letters, and the club sees too much opportunity for a big payday, so i don't think we'll actually move away from spec. i wish we would, but.... [banghead]

i just want us to get on a tire that isn't higher maintenance than Paris Hilton.

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quote:
Originally posted by Jim Daniels:
Spec tire = big check due to forced sales = not good for us.

Dude,

This ship has sailed. We got the spec tire two years. The one price increase since then didn't even keep up with inflation.

JD's statement above just isn't supported by our experience.

Here's the deal. We will have the RA1 for another year. We're under contract. It's a done deal.

There will be no open tire. That's clear.

We need to start thinking about how we select the next tire. The last tire test was a joke. Nearly everyone can agree on that. It was a learning experience. How can we improve the next test? Should we let the SCCA do it, or get them to farm it out to a 3rd party (engineering company , etc)?

-Kyle

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Does anyone know the steps that the SRF guys went through the last time they changed tires?

I don't (and haven't tried to find out), but it might be worth looking at whatever they did to see if there was anything different done there.

Jarrod

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I have experienced another big difference with the Toyos that I haven't seen discussed even once on this site - shaving method. I have found that Toyos shaved on a lathe (AIM tire) are unbearably bad for one session (-1 second per lap or more) and mediocre for probably 2 sessions after that (-.25 second) and then work better until they get thin enough that they get too hot after a handful of laps (around 3/64"), although they still work great for qualifying.

On the other hand, the buffer shaved Toyos (from saferacer, TireShoppe) work quite well on the first session and continue to work similarly / slightly better until they start to get thin. I started with two sets of 4/32" shaved by that method and both sets at around 1/32" seemed to start loosing time even before they overheated - they seemed to have just heat cycled out (-.5 second getting even slower when hot).

Of course, my sample size is only 4 sets of 5 tires at 4/32" - 2 lathed and 2 buffed - this last season and I'm still a couple seconds off the pole (FWIW, I rotate the 5 to keep a matched spare at all times - mixing some combo of different date codes, thicknesses or shave methods has caused handling nightmares for me in the past). In addition, running frequently at Laguna Seca where the glassy surface causes almost no wear certainly changes the results compared to running at circuits with more abrasive surfaces.

Am I crazy or have other people investigated this? Next year I'm planning to use 3/32" buffed tires as I think they'll be the most consistent tire I can get over their life cycle at the tracks I run.

JD

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I think your posts might be disappearing because you're not signing your name to them.

Just a thought.

J

--------------------
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I am a little iffy on Hoosiers. i recently came to Miata racing from Porsche club racing where Hoosiers were king. The only problem...had to scrub them in properly, wait at least 2 days, then they were only competetive for that race. Very pricey. Not, in my opinion, in the spirit of spec miata.

--------------------
Speed Dog Racing, Inc.

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The SM Hoosier is pretty much the same price as a Toyo.

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Dont know about the buff or shave.

The set of tires i bought this season was kind of strange. They would not come up to temp or build pressure. They were terribly slow, when i put them on the car we lost about 1.5sec....took them off and put tires from last season on, and got the time back...They finally started to predictably build pressure about 20 cycles into their life. I wonder if this had to do with the shave as they were purchased from a different source than last years tires were.

hmmm

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quote:
Originally posted by Colin MacLean:
The SM Hoosier is pretty much the same price as a Toyo.

Colin, where do you buy your tires? I pay arounf $150 for shaved Toyos, and $200 for Hoosiers.

Jerry

--------------------
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Jerry,
I buy the Hoosier 'SM' for about $142 direct from Hoosier at the track. Its not the "standard" hoosier, but it is if you get what I mean.

db


edit: this despite the fact that I have Kumho decals all over my car....

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The shave makes a huge difference in the performance of the tire. I don't know about the buff vs the lathe discussion.....but I know the shape can make or break the performance. I've personally seen that.

Jarrod

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There are some saying the hoosier is better, but what happens when it rains?

There are some saying a hard compound slick is ideal, but what happens when it rains?

With the toyos at least there is a little tread to help with water, as long as they're not too shaved/worn

I paid 135 per tire shaved this year for toyos. I'm hearing that the hoosiers are about $150, but then there would need to be a spec rain tire as well. So you've need a full tread spec rain tire, an intermidiate shaved rain tire, and then your dry tires to be preparred for a weekend. The rains couldn't really be used for anything else... With toyos you can use even full tread depth ones for practice and such as needed... I live and race in the desert, it doesn't rain often here, but when it does it's usually lots of the wet stuff on track!

I just don't see the bennefit of switching to a tire that doesn't have enough tread to use as a rain when unshaved... it seems that in the long run that would cost more..

--------------------
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fixrim
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"Real Tire Data" !!

I had that at the 25 hour two years ago, and the WORST fastest wearing Hoosier went 6 hours on the RF on a 99. I only wish I could get 3 hours out of a set of Toyos. The Hoosiers are faster, last longer, and are simply better. Don't believe me? Why do all the classes with open tires end up using Hoosiers as the dominant tire. Anyone remember week 22 in 2004? That's when the Toyo went from a long last hard as a rock tire to a fast wearing softer tire. However, TOYO didn't believe us. Ara I think was the first to discover this, and the word from Toyo was that the tire hadn't changed. But the reality is it HAD changed.

This class is already too expensive and TOYOS only add to the cost. Hoosiers, for some odd reason, have the reputation as a fast wearing fast soft tire. They are fast and soft and stable, but VERY slow wearing.

One last thing, when was the last time someone from TOYO showed up at a race you were at? Not a nice distributor like Bob Vilven, but an actual Toyo employee?

Ara Verified Driver Series Champ
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Let's be clear on something Jim (D): the class wants a spec tire. Check this very website for the "voice of the people". Better than 10:1 in a poll last month. GIVE IT UP.

Tire poll results

What we need is to figure out what the NEXT SPEC TIRE is. If it is true that Toyo paid to get the spec tire, how can we manage the process to take that variable out of it? Honestly, I think it is despicable that(if true) SCCA gets paid by our tire manufacturer.

Let's get constructive and design a method to select the right tire. If the right answer is Hoosier, great. They have been a big supporter of club racing for a long time. But unless we remain with a spec tire, we're going to be facing a tire war. There's going to be inner-circle drivers getting free tires, higher prices, etc.

I strongly disagree with the notion that open tire leading to price competition. I have NEVER seen this happen. Open tire equals PERFORMANCE competition and pricing and longevity will go out the window.

Ara

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Jason Holland Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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werd

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Jason Holland
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Why would SCCA being paid for it's choice of tire be any different than any other sanctioning body (motorsports, triathalon, golf, you name it) getting paid for exclusive sales rights to whatever product they endorse? As long as the deal was struck after SCCA decided what the best tire was I don't see a problem with that.

As for Bob's information, we used Hoosiers for the 1st time the last few races and were pretty pleased with the wear. (I owe you a restictor plate btw Bob.)

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Matthew F. Davis
Texas Region SCCA

Ara Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by mdavis:
Why would SCCA being paid for it's choice of tire be any different than any other sanctioning body (motorsports, triathalon, golf, you name it) getting paid for exclusive sales rights to whatever product they endorse? As long as the deal was struck after SCCA decided what the best tire was I don't see a problem with that.

It's all allegations and such as we are not privy to the transaction. The question you pose at the end of the paragraph is your assumption, and contrary to what is being rumored to be the case.

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quote:
Originally posted by Ara:

...and contrary to what is being rumored to be the case.

I don't think this point can be emphasized enough.

Jarrod

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Blake Clements Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyle Disque:
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Daniels:
Spec tire = big check due to forced sales = not good for us.

Dude,

This ship has sailed. We got the spec tire two years. The one price increase since then didn't even keep up with inflation.

JD's statement above just isn't supported by our experience.

Here's the deal. We will have the RA1 for another year. We're under contract. It's a done deal.

There will be no open tire. That's clear.

We need to start thinking about how we select the next tire. The last tire test was a joke. Nearly everyone can agree on that. It was a learning experience. How can we improve the next test? Should we let the SCCA do it, or get them to farm it out to a 3rd party (engineering company , etc)?

-Kyle

And you think the SCCA is going to let us choose how they decide what Spec Tire we are going to run? Just like they gave the 1.6 the Spec flywheel weight that almost everyone was in agreement on?

As much as you like to think it is, this isn't a democracy - the SCCA is a business. Believe it or not the SCCA is getting paid for the tire we are stuck with.

On another note, the biggest problem with this siutation is 75% of the people yell for a spec tire. 50% whine when its not the tire they want, at the price they want, etc.

We have a problem when I buy 5 sets of tires with different shaves to show up at the Runoffs and burn them all up before qualifying is over. [Frown]

--------------------
Blake Clements

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Blake,
For what it's worth, I ran all four qualifying session and the race on one set of Hoosier A tires in my ASedan and made the podium.
wheelman

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quote:
Originally posted by Blake Clements:
[QUOTE] We have a problem when I buy 5 sets of tires with different shaves to show up at the Runoffs and burn them all up before qualifying is over. [Frown]

Hmmmm... We showed up in Topeka with 2 sets of brand new 2/32 Toyo's and ran 2 full practice days, all 4 qualifying sessions, and the race on these 2 sets.

--------------------
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Roger Caddell

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Blake Clements Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Roger Caddell:
quote:
Originally posted by Blake Clements:
[QUOTE] We have a problem when I buy 5 sets of tires with different shaves to show up at the Runoffs and burn them all up before qualifying is over. [Frown]

Hmmmm... We showed up in Topeka with 2 sets of brand new 2/32 Toyo's and ran 2 full practice days, all 4 qualifying sessions, and the race on these 2 sets.
I have definetly done that before also, but to get the best out of these tires - we are cycling sets differently, etc. It is my personal opinion that this isn't the way that it should be. I'd like to be able to have a molded tire, that we know how it is going to react.

I'd also like to have an all 1.6 SM class, but that is a different story.

Wheel, I feel the Hoosier is by far a better choice, as is Kumho/Hankook, or any tire that we don't have to shave. If I get bored on my drive home tonight, I might call in to the show.

--------------------
Blake Clements

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Dusty Bottoms Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
99 all the way!

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Blake admit it, you just want to get a tire deal. You told me so..I got the IM to prove it. [Wink]

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"Your victory is tainted! Asterisk! Asterisk!!!"--Lisa Simpson

Blake Clements Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Antonio Garza:
Blake admit it, you just want to get a tire deal. You told me so..I got the IM to prove it. [Wink]

I think the manufacturer's have a lot more to offer the competitors than any SCCA, pocket padding, Spec Tire deal. If thats a tire deal, then yeah - I want one.
[Big Grin]

I can chose my exhaust, intake, motor, seat - why not my tires? [Smile]

People whine about how they are going to cost more, last less, etc. They act like tires are the only expensive part.

--------------------
Blake Clements

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Jason Holland Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Mediocrity rules!

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quote:
Originally posted by Blake Clements:
I have definetly done that before also, but to get the best out of these tires - we are cycling sets differently, etc. It is my personal opinion that this isn't the way that it should be. I'd like to be able to have a molded tire, that we know how it is going to react.


I actually agree here. I'd much rather have a molded tire. But what you guys are forgetting is that this "problem" (I quote because we get alot of different info on this) only seems to effect front runners the most.

They are the ones best equipped to deal with this problem. For the most part the rest of the field is pretty happy with the economy of the toyo spec. For evidence, please see EVERY poll ever conducted.

Until someone can prove to me that there is a better option for EVERYONE, I'll still be in the toyo camp.


quote:


Wheel, I feel the Hoosier is by far a better choice, as is Kumho/Hankook, or any tire that we don't have to shave.

Are you listening Bruce?! [Smile]

--------------------
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Blake Clements Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Jason Holland:
quote:
Originally posted by Blake Clements:
I have definetly done that before also, but to get the best out of these tires - we are cycling sets differently, etc. It is my personal opinion that this isn't the way that it should be. I'd like to be able to have a molded tire, that we know how it is going to react.


I actually agree here. I'd much rather have a molded tire. But what you guys are forgetting is that this "problem" (I quote because we get alot of different info on this) only seems to effect front runners the most.

They are the ones best equipped to deal with this problem. For the most part the rest of the field is pretty happy with the economy of the toyo spec. For evidence, please see EVERY poll ever conducted.

Until someone can prove to me that there is a better option for EVERYONE, I'll still be in the toyo camp.


quote:


Wheel, I feel the Hoosier is by far a better choice, as is Kumho/Hankook, or any tire that we don't have to shave.

Are you listening Bruce?! [Smile]

Jason,

Why can't the people "not at the front of the pack" still be economical on an open tire? They don't have to have 1/32nd's toyos, so what makes them have to buy new *insert tire name here* every session they are on the track?

I think there is a misconception that open tire=astronomical tire bill. If you want to be economical and aren't worried about finishing up front, you can run a toyo or even a cheaper/harder tire. This is the same as running 5/32nd's tires or full tread Toyo's

IMHO!

--------------------
Blake Clements

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