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Author Topic: Hoosiers, 3 hours
Jason Holland Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Mediocrity rules!

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I don't disagree with you for the most part. People could still use the toyos if the tire went open. But the bottom line is, a very small percentage of people want to go open. So it's kind of a moot point.

We have a spec tire and that's not likely to change.

Right now, people in the midpack have economy and everyone is still on the same tire which helps the perception of parity if not the reality.

I've said it before, I could get behind a hoosier spec tire if someone can show me that it benefits the whole class, not just the guys up front.

J

--------------------
Jason Holland
Semi-interested civilian

Blake Clements Verified Driver Series Champ
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Something is obviously going on if they are asking for input again?

--------------------
Blake Clements

PhillipsRacePrep/SP Induction Systems/East Street Racing/MiataCage.com/Carbotech/WBR Graphics

www.blakeclements.com

Dusty Bottoms Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
99 all the way!

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quote:
Originally posted by Blake Clements:
Something is obviously going on if they are asking for input again?

Well if you believe some people, maybe the need more money?

Or maybe they just haven't been paying attention?

Or maybe I'm just full of [censored] and I'm totally clueless as to how most people feel.

--------------------
"Your victory is tainted! Asterisk! Asterisk!!!"--Lisa Simpson

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Observations from afar ;
- i think Mr Wheels America needs to change the antenaes on his head lest he also be accused of listening to secret toyo messages from "black helicopters" [Wink]
- am amazed to see one of the sheppArads actually leading the call for the sheep to go over the cliff. [scratchchin]
- werd that I have come to agree with the mutant rabbit on most every issue EXCEPT for the one at hand [Smile]
- my bud up in NE Patriots region wants to dictate the procedures for SCCA to do another tire test [Roll Eyes]
- some of the brethern want the new tire to be selected on the basis of it lasting at least 25-30 heat cycles AND without any drop off in performance(as driven 10/10ths by whom ?)
- oh BTW, Mr WoA, the black helicopter told me the RA1 "compound" really DID NOT change, "only the polymers and additives did", and twice for that matter, in Sept '04 & Feb '05. Tech speak distinction that I don't fully understand but given that the pilot of that black helicopter is a proffessional Toyo racer that has won a ton of pro races on toyos, does paid tire tests for toyo, deals with their actual engineers on a constant basis and, is a friend I help out at the Kart track on Wednesday nights, I as the sucker that I am, tend to beleive him.
- continuing to waste everybodys time by talking about the tires INSTEAD of the PROCESS as it involves the decision makers in Topeka
- came up with my own simple survey below which provides instant results ; ...
- does anyone actually beleive that another SCCA sealed bid process will be in OUR collective best interests ? Yes - No
- does anyone actually beleive the SCCA is both willing and capable of changing their process to allow a true above board FAIR spec tire deal that is in our best interests ? Yes - No
- is anyone Don Quijote enough to believe they can change the process by taking away final negotiating and approval rights ( $$$) from the SCCA BoD ? Yes - No
- if you answered Yes to any of the three choices above ... Congrats ! you have just won the priviledge to purchase your 2009 Toyo Triple 8's at $159. per tire,plus, shaving, M&B = $184. per tire... notice I said 2009, as they will go up in 2010 and 11 .
and ... I won't say what the pilot of the black helicopter said about the triple 8's after their tests ... [help]
in conclusion, go "limited open" my fellow brethern, "Spec 6", done regionally, outside of the auspices of Topeka and allow no one to control your options for the next 3 years [thumbsup]
happy racing to all,
Carlos Gutierrez

Jason Holland Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Mediocrity rules!

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quote:
Originally posted by Blake Clements:
Something is obviously going on if they are asking for input again?

I actually think one of two things.

1. They are completely out of touch and don't know how people feel

2. They are looking towards the time the RA-1 is no longer manufactured.

My point is, the membership has spoken, they want a spec tire and if they don't get one, there will be a march on Topeka and an even greater exodus to NASA.

Jason

--------------------
Jason Holland
Semi-interested civilian

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Jason Holland:
I've said it before, I could get behind a hoosier spec tire if someone can show me that it benefits the whole class, not just the guys up front.

J

I will start by saying I hope it remains spec tire. I really don't care which as long as it is a good overall tire...

But as far as the quote above,I will say, the Hoosier tire will bring the class closer together than the Toyos. The Hoosier tire is easier to drive thus brings Mid pack /back pack guys closer to the front as they will be closer to getting 100% out of the tire. Right now the top guys get more out of the Toyos than mid pack and back. I think the Toyos separated the pack more than many other things to be honest. I think if the difference between a new Hoosier and 25 session Hoosier is X, the difference between all the variations of the Toyos versus best Toyo for that day is most likely 2(x), which is a huge differnce.
My order would be Hoosier Goodyear Toyo, but would be fine with any of the three
Jim

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
jdrago1@aol.com
2006-2007 Mid-West Division
07,09 June Sprints Champion

EAST STREET RACING

jigou Verified Driver
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I love that, Carlos - "The compound didn't change, only the polymers and additives."

If I'm to believe anything about tires that some guy named Paul Haney wrote, that's the DEFINITION of compound change.

I'd love to see another tire test, but damned if I want it run the same way.

I still think a hard slick (like the SRF boys and girls are running on) is the way to go for us; barring that, I'll defer to my big buddy from Memphis and his tire ranking.

Jarrod

--------------------
http://www.plainoldgas.com

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quote:
Originally posted by jigou:
I love that, Carlos - "The compound didn't change, only the polymers and additives."

If I'm to believe anything about tires that some guy named Paul Haney wrote, that's the DEFINITION of compound change.

I'd love to see another tire test, but damned if I want it run the same way.

I still think a hard slick (like the SRF boys and girls are running on) is the way to go for us; barring that, I'll defer to my big buddy from Memphis and his tire ranking.

Jarrod

J ,
first sentence above only good for a soundbite, totally irrelevant to the issue at hand.
The issue here is the process, not the tire. Will folks again allow the same decision makers to repeat the same smoke and mirrors show as the last time ?
Remember, they only allowed SM to become a National class in the first place once they realized the potential income from National entries, as before the individual Regions were keeping the lions share of the entry fees.
Just trying to open a few eyes, as anyone can take the middle of the road position.
Also feel specing 'only' a Hoosier is not going to get us the BEST deal as we will end up paying more. Keep Topeka out of it. It's a no win proposition.
Happy Turkey day to all,
Carlos Gutierrez

Dusty Bottoms Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
99 all the way!

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quote:
Originally posted by guest driver:


Remember, they only allowed SM to become a National class in the first place once they realized the potential income from National entries, as before the individual Regions were keeping the lions share of the entry fees.

I don't think you realize how finances work when races are organized. The only time national makes money directly from a race, is during the runoffs. They make money indirectly b/c we're a marketing tool for SCCA...but they don't make more money off national entries compared to regional entries (sanction fee difference is small).

--------------------
"Your victory is tainted! Asterisk! Asterisk!!!"--Lisa Simpson

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Blake Clements:
quote:
Originally posted by Jason Holland:
quote:
Originally posted by Blake Clements:
I have definetly done that before also, but to get the best out of these tires - we are cycling sets differently, etc. It is my personal opinion that this isn't the way that it should be. I'd like to be able to have a molded tire, that we know how it is going to react.


I actually agree here. I'd much rather have a molded tire. But what you guys are forgetting is that this "problem" (I quote because we get alot of different info on this) only seems to effect front runners the most.

They are the ones best equipped to deal with this problem. For the most part the rest of the field is pretty happy with the economy of the toyo spec. For evidence, please see EVERY poll ever conducted.

Until someone can prove to me that there is a better option for EVERYONE, I'll still be in the toyo camp.


quote:


Wheel, I feel the Hoosier is by far a better choice, as is Kumho/Hankook, or any tire that we don't have to shave.

Are you listening Bruce?! [Smile]

Jason,

Why can't the people "not at the front of the pack" still be economical on an open tire? They don't have to have 1/32nd's toyos, so what makes them have to buy new *insert tire name here* every session they are on the track?

I think there is a misconception that open tire=astronomical tire bill. If you want to be economical and aren't worried about finishing up front, you can run a toyo or even a cheaper/harder tire. This is the same as running 5/32nd's tires or full tread Toyo's

IMHO!

Boy, boys, boys...

Don't make me get out the old CRB spam-o-matic.

Open tires aint going to happen. Doesn't it suck when the masses dictate to the few [Smile]

I love Hoosier's too, too bad it rains sometimes. I only want to deal with one tire make and model, and have been known to shave old rains to run on the more "textured" tracks. You just can't get more economical than that.

We should actually include regional spec with the national spec for 09. Yes, a lot of folks run both. Again, I only want to worry about one tire make and model.

-BW
Vote early, vote often [Smile]

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

IPRESS Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Here is some hard data from a very reliable source. I say this because there is no doubt that in SM I am the "Poster Child of the MIDPACK".

I spent the majority of 07 running my 95 miata in ITA on SM Hoosiers. I started in 99 running RA1s and until this year cussed anyone who said they weren't the best tire for SM.
The SM Hoosier is a TON better for the average midpack guy. Price wise it is right with the RA1 and I have found them cheaper a time or two. They last through a bunch of heat cycles with nice consistency. (The real fast guys may be tougher on them but I am sure they hold up as well for them if not better then RA1s.)
As SM's answer to Burl Ives posted above......THEY ARE WAY EASIER TO DRIVE ON. They perform better for the guy who is a weekend club racer. They make it more fun for the same money.
Again, no one campaigned for TOYO RA1s to be the SM spec tire more then me. Now I know that for the midpack guy the SM Hoosier is superior all the way.

Casey, do the COMMA SM racers still run open? I know they preferred the Hoosier SM tire tha last time I raced with them.

Jason, I am not trying to rain on the TOYO or NASA parade on this, I am just putting out there what I found out through this season of racing on Hoosiers against seven seasons on the RA1.
I really noticed a difference during the ARRC weekend when after running Hoosiers in the Pro IT & ARRC Sprint, we qualified for the Enduro on Toyos that my co-driver brought. ( They were not new, but just about right for the 3HR.) They were just harder to gauge reaction from so for the race we went with some multiple heat cycled old Hoosier SMs. I turned my fastest laps of the weekend on the old rubber!
Hoosier has never given me a dime (or even a free hat) so this is not a paid ad for Bruce and his gang. They (the dealers) have given great service at a fair price.

--------------------
Mac Spikes
IPRESS Racing
MER
East Street Auto
SAFERACER
Hoosier
Carbotech
MotorSport Ranch
Cresson, Texas
"To hell with you Gen. Sheridan...I 'll take Texas!"

LOREN WALLACE IS MY HERO!

IPRESS Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Well Bruce, you should work for a dirt cheap tuner tire to be the spec choice. Maybe one of those Federals or such. The Clown will love it as he won't have to change when he gets to the track...... well he will have to change from clown suit to driver suit....unless that clown "gitup" is made of nomex! [duck] [rolling on floor laughin]

--------------------
Mac Spikes
IPRESS Racing
MER
East Street Auto
SAFERACER
Hoosier
Carbotech
MotorSport Ranch
Cresson, Texas
"To hell with you Gen. Sheridan...I 'll take Texas!"

LOREN WALLACE IS MY HERO!

smtejas Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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What MAC said. Twice, Thrice. It's a myth that Hoosiers don't last. Believe me. I used to believe the myth (until I ran them in Enduros). They are far superior for enduros if you want to run up front, fast and for a long time.

Someone asked about rains?
Safety = Dirt Stockers

Way better in the wet and more predictable.
*Less risk to body work and limbs - read/interpret this as cheaper*

Afterall, this ain't England. How often do you truly race in the rain. 5% of the time? 10%? 15%? I reckon it would be more like less than 5% of the time.

Don

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Okay. Forget what I said above.
Let's just spec Sears Road Handlers and be done with it. You can drive them to the track for 5 years before they wear out. 29.95/each plus shaving. Should be around $50 bones each delivered to your door. Or, available for local pickup in virtually every major city in the U.S. for about $40.

We can trim more costs with Monroe-Matic Shocks.
That will unfold in 2009 with the tires.

Casey Z Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Mac, yes COMMA is still open. As far as the tire of choice most run Hoosiers. Some of us go back and forth since we have Toyo's from SCCA events. The only really fasy guys that can make the Toyo's as fast as the Hoosier's are guys with 10 plus years of racing experiance. All the mid pack guys prefer the Hoosier.

I have said this before and I don't think anyone really listened. If you haven't run the new Hoosier compound you really don't have a frame of reference to compare the Hoosiers to the Toyo's. You can run the new compound at much lower pressures than the Toyo's and it makes them much more forgiving than they used to be. On the new Hoosiers we aim for 32 hot.

--------------------
----------------
Z Brothers Racing / East Street Auto

Casey Z - 1.6 Kettle
MidDiv National #13

Jim Boemler Verified Driver
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Man, are you guys all wet!

Yes, Mac, the clown suit is all Nomex -- it kinda has to be for forum work. [Wink]

Don, it may rain only 5% of the time where YOU are. Many of us don't live there (thank God). I lucked out this year (one rain session the whole year), but most years I would guess we run around 30-40% in the rain. BTW, there's nothing like buying a brand-new set of rains if you want a dry season. [Frown]

And yes, specing Sears Road Handlers would probably be an improvement over open tire. I'd take Hoosiers as a spec tire over Sears, though. The first and foremost requirement (for 90% of us, by actual poll) is to be on a spec tire. As Bruce says, just accept it.

jim

--------------------
Just a clown

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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Dirt Stockers!?!

Aren't those the tires that destroy themselves if you chose rains by mistake or it dries out during the session? So, what, budget for a plethora of sets per year?

-Bruce
Edited to add the word plethora in there somewhere [Smile]

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

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quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Wilson:
Dirt Stockers!?!

Aren't those the tires that destroy themselves if you chose rains by mistake or it dries out during the session?
-Bruce

absolutely correct. Only good for a torrential downpour, but don't think they even make them anymore in our size.
Besides, the correct rain tire to choose is the Hoosier GAC (now Koni series) wet. Good on both full wet and drying conditions ...
or, the Kumho wet, or the Hankook wet ...etc [Big Grin]
I think you get my drift [Wink]
Carlos G.

mdavis Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Yeah, now I'm with Don. We can really save some money with the the Road Handlers. But why waste any more $ with shaving?

[ 11-22-2007, 08:14 AM: Message edited by: mdavis ]

--------------------
Matthew F. Davis
Texas Region SCCA

SM Police
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RECAPS!

--------------------
Speed Dog Racing, Inc.

SM Police
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No wait...whitewall recaps!

--------------------
Speed Dog Racing, Inc.

SM Police
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No wait, wait...whitewall recaps that put out red smoke when skidding!

SWEET!

--------------------
Speed Dog Racing, Inc.

Gibscreen Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim Boemler:

BTW, there's nothing like buying a brand-new set of rains if you want a dry season. [Frown]

Tell me about it. I was at a track without a set of wets. Forecast said rain, but I'm in SoCal, and it never rains when its forecast. But just in case, I reserved a set of wets at the track tire shop.

Well of course an hour before my first race, it started up, sprinkling pretty hard, so I went to the tire shop and bought the wets, knowing that if I didn't buy a set I'd need them, and if I did buy a set I wouldn't need them. Sure enough, as soon as they were mounted and paid for, rain stopped and didn't start again for the rest of the weekend.

Luckily it rained at my next race weekend, but I'm convinced that only happened because I was racing in a different region.

--------------------
Rob Gibson
RJ Racing
2010 NASA Nationals TTE Champion
2008/2009 WERC Champion
2007 NASA SoCal SM Champion
rjracing.net
Weekend-Racer.com

Jim Boemler Verified Driver
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You've got a good handle on cause and effect, Rob! [Wink]

jim

--------------------
Just a clown

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How about this? Spec any tire you wish...or...open tire rule, you choose. Anyone caught accepting a "tire deal" or manufacturer discount is banned for life. Any manufacturer offering one is banned for life. Life ban too...no crapola docking points or sitting for a month. Call it amateur racing.

 
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