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Author Topic: Runoffs results parity discussion
Casey Z Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Per Alan's suggestion (I think it is a good one) let's use this thread for parity discussion.

My post that got everyone fired up from the other thread...

Ok so here is the parity break down based on car counts, qual results, and some quick Excel work.

Total Entry Percentages

1.6 - 22%
1.8 - 19%
99 - 59%
01 - 0%

Top 10

1.6 - 20%
1.8 - 10%
99 - 70%
01 - 0%

Top Half of the Field

1.6 - 10%
1.8 - 6%
99 - 84%
01 - 0%

Bottom Half of the Field

1.6 - 33%
1.8 - 33%
99 - 33%
01 - 0%

Food for thought...

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Z Brothers Racing / East Street Auto

Casey Z - 1.6 Kettle
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d mathias Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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In the interest of true parity I'll ask my wife Debra to do a rain dance for RA Saturday morning. (she's part Cherokee) [Wink]

Tvance13
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Moved from other thread

Well one of the 10 lucky guys in the country who built a 01 VVT car has to pipe in...ZERO cars entered. Doesn't that really say it all about the need to give this car some help. At the top level of this sport where cars are being offered for 30K or more money is clearly not the issue.

Top builders build the best car they can for their drivers. Clearly the VVT car is not a candidate to run in the front or one of the cars that RE, East Street, Rebello, etc have built would be at the show.

I'm not trying to make this the car to have. I just want it to be a car that doesn't SUCK to have. It needs the 45 RP at a minimum. And if all of a sudden it is actually able to compete the board can adjust accordingly.

And I'm not talking about my personal car. I am talking about the VVT in general. The first reaction to this is always “we need to judge a top prepped car”. There in lies the rub. At the moment this car is not a candidate to be prepped for competition at the top level. The fact that NO ONE is racing one solidifies that argument. How will we ever judge a "Fully Prepped or Top Built Car" if no front runner is willing to race it.

[ 09-24-2009, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: Tvance13 ]

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How about some actual car counts along with percentages?

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Rob Gibson
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I'm not an expert on the other cars (or my own for that matter) buy my perception of RA from a few days there is that it favors torque and aerodynamics.

I'm thinking mostly about the short uphills between T5-T6 and after T14 plus the all the long straights. Then again I didn't drive it in a Miata so I may be way off base.

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quote:
Originally posted by Gibscreen:
How about some actual car counts along with percentages?

See the link to the entry list in the other thread. That and the qualifying results are what I based the above on.

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FYI OPM has a 2002 that they have campaigned quite succesfully for the past two years as Tom's personal race car and as a rental. It has done pretty well against the 99 cars.

PS Don't the 01-05 cars already have a 43mm RP or is that a typo in the GCR?

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quote:
Originally posted by David Luney:
FYI OPM has a 2002 that they have campaigned quite succesfully for the past two years as Tom's personal race car and as a rental. It has done pretty well against the 99 cars.

PS Don't the 01-05 cars already have a 43mm RP or is that a typo in the GCR?

There is nothing SLOW about Tom's '01. In a straight line, and in coming out of corners, it DESTROYS my '99. The traqmate Velocity vs. Time trace speaks volumes. Tom and RE has this model year figured out for sure!!!

I know some have tried and given up, but maybe they quit too soon!!!!

--------------------
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quote:
Originally posted by Tvance13:
Moved from other thread

Well one of the 10 lucky guys in the country who built a 01 VVT car has to pipe in...ZERO cars entered. Doesn't that really say it all about the need to give this car some help. At the top level of this sport where cars are being offered for 30K or more money is clearly not the issue.

Top builders build the best car they can for their drivers. Clearly the VVT car is not a candidate to run in the front or one of the cars that RE, East Street, Rebello, etc have built would be at the show.

I'm not trying to make this the car to have. I just want it to be a car that doesn't SUCK to have. It needs the 41 RP at a minimum. And if all of a sudden it is actually able to compete the board can adjust accordingly.

And I'm not talking about my personal car. I am talking about the VVT in general. The first reaction to this is always “we need to judge a top prepped car”. There in lies the rub. At the moment this car is not a candidate to be prepped for competition at the top level. The fact that NO ONE is racing one solidifies that argument. How will we ever judge a "Fully Prepped or Top Built Car" if no front runner is willing to race it.

I'd generally agree with the sentiment above. 1990 was 20 years ago guys. At some point we're going to start running out of parts for the early cars and look like folks running all those Spitfires. Bob Stretch built a VVT car a few years ago and gave up on it because it wasn't competitive. Why not give those cars a break on RP size so we can start to get some newer cars in the class?

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Matthew F. Davis
Texas Region SCCA

Tvance13
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Type-o. You are correct, they have a 43, I meant 45.

Danny - I have heard stories about these cars being competitive, but based on my racing experience I know guys that will spend BIG money for the last couple of tenths. I may be way off base, but if there was even the slightest possibility I could bring a gun to a knife fight I would. The motor builders have been all very forthright with me. There are some limitations with this car that just make it less desirable. I am just trying to overcome those limitations. Given the number out there, it seems to be an uphill battle.

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Vick Verified Driver
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I have a really silly question, and keep in mind I run a 1.6l car because it was what looked like an attractive buy pricewise at the time.

Any difference between the 1999 and the 2000?

Just one of those idk questions that I have probably asked countless times on this site.

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Notwithstanding the model year imbalance of the entries, all of this talk is premature. At least wait for the race results.

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quote:
Originally posted by mdavis:
1990 was 20 years ago guys. At some point we're going to start running out of parts for the early cars and look like folks running all those Spitfires.

1.6 136,788
NA 1.8 77,000
99-00 55,882
01-05 ?? but I bet it is a small number

and this is just total production -- it says nothing about the M/T A/T mix which should have been more M/Ts (A/T added mid 91 I think) in the early cars.

The 1.6 will always have the numbers -- there is no shortage of cars or parts!!!

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Danny Steyn Verified Driver
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Hey guys

please do not jump off the deep end on this - lets face it - Road America does favor the '99, no question. Please see Keith Verges report in the original thread Runoffs News. Heres a guy with both and he thinks that they are close.

Dont take one isolated point and extrapolate off the chart - this can be done both ways.

I am heading to the SIC at Roebling in October. This track definitely favors the 1.6 and we are taking both the 1.6 and my '99 to test both.

just saying!

--------------------
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Tvance13
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Matt - My man! You are the first and only taker and for that I owe you a cold beer. C'mon, where are the other 9 guys who are saddled with a VVT. Bueller? Anyone?

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If Tom has an '02 that's running good at OPM, maybe the other nine VVT guys should be beating down his door. I'm not about to start endorsing any rules changes for 10 guys.... it just ain't gonna happen.

We're a LONG way from comparing 1.6s to spitfires, MGs, FV or FF engines. Like Willie said, the numbers still make the 1.6 the cheapest & most plentiful for parts & donors. Get back with us when you have data from 50 VVT cars & I'll at least pretend to care. [twocents]

Eric

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Eric - If the 02 car that OPM built had any advantage over a 99 whatsoever someone would be racing it. You want data, call any reputable motor builder and ask them what you should build, a 99 or an 01. Like I said, the entry list speaks for itself.

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If no changes are made to help the other years of cars(ie: more weight for the 99, like NASA), I'm getting a 99. I know I am not the fastest driver, but at the tracks I drive, Daytona, Sebring, Roebling Rd. PBIR, the 99 is THE car to have.

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quote:
Originally posted by Vick:
Any difference between the 1999 and the 2000?

Nothing substantive -- there are just a lot more '99s out there than there are '00s because '99 was the first year of the NB and a long one at that (production started in '98).

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Stephen Hui - '95 SM #86, Northwest / Oregon Region SCCA

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Always interesting to watch the ping pong debate on this issue.

I am with Danny on this - lets be careful to not jump off the deep end. The NASA champion was in a 91 and it looks as though a 99 driver has a good chance of being the SCCA champ (a first at the Runnoffs) unless Keith Verges has a good day in his 90. If parity is not exact, its pretty close. Some tracks seem to favor the 99 and others the 90 - but both only slightly. For my part if I had both versions (equally well set up) I would probably run different cars for different tracks.

This year in Texas National standings only 4 of the top ten cars were 99's. The championship leader was in a 99 and the next two in 90/1's. The racing was on 3 different tracks with one of those tracks (TWS) appearing to slightly favor the 99 and another (MSR Houston) slightly favoring non 99's. The difference was minor. Good drivers in well prepared cars finished at or near the top regardless of what year they drove. And to some extent everyone complained that the cars they were NOT driving were faster.

I personally doubt that any change will be made for 2010.

Of course my 99 needs some help....

Craig J

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I think Craig sums it up nicely. The cars are very close, it is just depends on the track. I really didn't want to start a poo storm with my post, just thought the numbers were interesting. I think the statistics for RA are pretty clear.

The real issue for us is that unlike most series the season is an all or nothing deal based on the last race of the year. In pro series you get points at all the tracks and they add up. Some tracks favor your car and some tracks don't. That is ok as it is a cumulative deal. With NASA or SCCA if the last track favors your car then you are in the cat bird seat. That is just the way it is.

I don't have the magic bullet for this one and to be honest I don't think there is one. HPT favored the 1.8, RA favors the 99, hopefully track number next will favor the 1.6. That said, I think talking about parity is not a bad thing. We just need to realize there is no magic formula to make it work out.

One other thing, the 01+ cars do need help. They can't compete with a well prepped 99 and they have to run the same configuration. If the car is going to be eligible to race it needs to be made competitive. It needs a larger plate. I was involved in a very top flight 01 development program and can tell you there is no way to legally make them work as is. Just my experience and my take. Carry on... [Wink]

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Casey Z - 1.6 Kettle
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Sean Yepez Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Casey Z:
I think Craig sums it up nicely. The cars are very close, it is just depends on the track. I really didn't want to start a poo storm with my post, just thought the numbers were interesting. I think the statistics for RA are pretty clear.

The real issue for us is that unlike most series the season is an all or nothing deal based on the last race of the year. In pro series you get points at all the tracks and they add up. Some tracks favor your car and some tracks don't. That is ok as it is a cumulative deal. With NASA or SCCA if the last track favors your car then you are in the cat bird seat. That is just the way it is.

I don't have the magic bullet for this one and to be honest I don't think there is one. HPT favored the 1.8, RA favors the 99, hopefully track number next will favor the 1.6. That said, I think talking about parity is not a bad thing. We just need to realize there is no magic formula to make it work out.

One other thing, the 01+ cars do need help. They can't compete with a well prepped 99 and they have to run the same configuration. If the car is going to be eligible to race it needs to be made competitive. It needs a larger plate. I was involved in a very top flight 01 development program and can tell you there is no way to legally make them work as is. Just my experience and my take. Carry on... [Wink]

Based on your results, the car that needs the most help (that is there) is the 1.8. With the 45-millimeter plate and a 100-pound weight disadvantage compared to the 1.6, it could use a 4.3. However, since that change is arguably pretty difficult to enact over the entire fleet of 1.8 cars, I propose taking 35 pounds off of the 1.8. (That is an easy adjustment.)

The 2001 may need a bigger plate, but it's impossible to know that without having a top-prepared 2001 there driven by a top driver.

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Blake Clements Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Sean Yepez:
I propose taking 35 pounds off of the 1.8.

I propose we leave them the same as now after 2 dominant years. Change we can believe in! [Wink]

--------------------
Blake Clements

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quote:
Originally posted by Sean Yepez:


The 2001 may need a bigger plate, but it's impossible to know that without having a top-prepared 2001 there driven by a top driver.

How does anyone know that a top builder hasn't built an 01? Its obvious OPM has one. Others have built too.

I heard Bobby Carter's was real fast too?

--------------------
Blake Clements

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quote:
Originally posted by Blake Clements:
quote:
Originally posted by Sean Yepez:


The 2001 may need a bigger plate, but it's impossible to know that without having a top-prepared 2001 there driven by a top driver.

How does anyone know that a top builder hasn't built an 01? Its obvious OPM has one. Others have built too.

I heard Bobby Carter's was real fast too?

I really have no idea. I haven't seen a competitive one run. It could very well be at a disadvantage (though I have no reason to think so), but someone needs to prove it. Mr. Vance has been asking for a bigger plate for the 2001 for a long time now, but until someone builds the SMAC a top 2001 or someone takes the time to put one together (and has a top driver try to win a race in it), it's really hard to say. I hear what Tyler's dad is saying (that no one at the Runoffs is campaigning one), but just because one isn't there, it doesn't mean they can't be fast.

Bobby said something about not being able to get his 2001 to where it needed to be, but I don't know how far he went in his motor development program with Rebello. I have a feeling there was more left on the table. It did okay at Laguna, but he said he was down on power. I think he got 7th (but qualified poorly).

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quote:
Originally posted by Sean Yepez:
quote:
Originally posted by Blake Clements:
quote:
Originally posted by Sean Yepez:


The 2001 may need a bigger plate, but it's impossible to know that without having a top-prepared 2001 there driven by a top driver.

How does anyone know that a top builder hasn't built an 01? Its obvious OPM has one. Others have built too.

I heard Bobby Carter's was real fast too?

I really have no idea. I haven't seen a competitive one run. It could very well be at a disadvantage (though I have no reason to think so), but someone needs to prove it. Mr. Vance has been asking for a bigger plate for the 2001 for a long time now, but until someone builds the SMAC a top 2001 or someone takes the time to put one together (and has a top driver try to win a race in it), it's really hard to say.

Bobby complained about not being able to get it to where it needs to be, but I don't know how far he went in his motor development program with Rebello. I have a feeling there was more left on the table.

I'm pretty sure Tom Fowler is on the SMAC. [Big Grin]

--------------------
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Casey - I appreciate you acknowledging what many have admitted off line. Like you said, it is eligible to race and whether there are 5 or 500 out there should not be a factor in keeping the cars competitive.

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quote:
Originally posted by Blake Clements:
quote:
Originally posted by Sean Yepez:
quote:
Originally posted by Blake Clements:
quote:
Originally posted by Sean Yepez:


The 2001 may need a bigger plate, but it's impossible to know that without having a top-prepared 2001 there driven by a top driver.

How does anyone know that a top builder hasn't built an 01? Its obvious OPM has one. Others have built too.

I heard Bobby Carter's was real fast too?

I really have no idea. I haven't seen a competitive one run. It could very well be at a disadvantage (though I have no reason to think so), but someone needs to prove it. Mr. Vance has been asking for a bigger plate for the 2001 for a long time now, but until someone builds the SMAC a top 2001 or someone takes the time to put one together (and has a top driver try to win a race in it), it's really hard to say.

Bobby complained about not being able to get it to where it needs to be, but I don't know how far he went in his motor development program with Rebello. I have a feeling there was more left on the table.

I'm pretty sure Tom Fowler is on the SMAC. [Big Grin]
Someone should run it at RA or the AARC. Why don't you rent it? [Big Grin]

--------------------
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quote:
Originally posted by Blake Clements:
quote:
Originally posted by Sean Yepez:
I propose taking 35 pounds off of the 1.8.

I propose we leave them the same as now after 2 dominant years. Change we can believe in! [Wink]
Last year, didn't Gorriaran run the fastest race lap in a '99 before the 1.8 was given the smaller plate? [Wink]

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quote:
Originally posted by Sean Yepez:
quote:
Originally posted by Blake Clements:
quote:
Originally posted by Sean Yepez:
quote:
Originally posted by Blake Clements:
quote:
Originally posted by Sean Yepez:


The 2001 may need a bigger plate, but it's impossible to know that without having a top-prepared 2001 there driven by a top driver.

How does anyone know that a top builder hasn't built an 01? Its obvious OPM has one. Others have built too.

I heard Bobby Carter's was real fast too?

I really have no idea. I haven't seen a competitive one run. It could very well be at a disadvantage (though I have no reason to think so), but someone needs to prove it. Mr. Vance has been asking for a bigger plate for the 2001 for a long time now, but until someone builds the SMAC a top 2001 or someone takes the time to put one together (and has a top driver try to win a race in it), it's really hard to say.

Bobby complained about not being able to get it to where it needs to be, but I don't know how far he went in his motor development program with Rebello. I have a feeling there was more left on the table.

I'm pretty sure Tom Fowler is on the SMAC. [Big Grin]
Someone should run it at RA or the AARC. Why don't you rent it? [Big Grin]
Why would I rent that car, when I own the "best" car? [Eek!] [Big Grin]

--------------------
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quote:
Originally posted by Sean Yepez:
quote:
Originally posted by Blake Clements:
quote:
Originally posted by Sean Yepez:


The 2001 may need a bigger plate, but it's impossible to know that without having a top-prepared 2001 there driven by a top driver.

How does anyone know that a top builder hasn't built an 01? Its obvious OPM has one. Others have built too.

I heard Bobby Carter's was real fast too?

I really have no idea. I haven't seen a competitive one run. It could very well be at a disadvantage (though I have no reason to think so), but someone needs to prove it. Mr. Vance has been asking for a bigger plate for the 2001 for a long time now, but until someone builds the SMAC a top 2001 or someone takes the time to put one together (and has a top driver try to win a race in it), it's really hard to say. I hear what Tyler's dad is saying (that no one at the Runoffs is campaigning one, but just because one isn't there, it doesn't mean they can't be fast.

Bobby said something about not being able to get his 2001 to where it needed to be, but I don't know how far he went in his motor development program with Rebello. I have a feeling there was more left on the table. It did okay at Laguna, but he said he was down on power. I think he got 7th (but qualified poorly).

My point was made above. Bob Stretch has moved on from SM but built a no expense spared 2001 and could not compete. Top notch driver, top notch build. Casey seems to know a thing or two about the 2001+ cars as well. Is everyone so scared that the car they have is going to be obsolete that we won't allow a different RP for the 2001+? How about someone put one on a dyno and make some real RP suggestions? Absent of that- I know how folks hate objective data- I'm going to propose a 48mm plate.
Oh... about objective data for William- there were over 80,000 Miata produced from 2001-2005.

Flame Away [flamed]

--------------------
Matthew F. Davis
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quote:
Originally posted by mdavis:
quote:
Originally posted by Sean Yepez:
quote:
Originally posted by Blake Clements:
quote:
Originally posted by Sean Yepez:


The 2001 may need a bigger plate, but it's impossible to know that without having a top-prepared 2001 there driven by a top driver.

How does anyone know that a top builder hasn't built an 01? Its obvious OPM has one. Others have built too.

I heard Bobby Carter's was real fast too?

I really have no idea. I haven't seen a competitive one run. It could very well be at a disadvantage (though I have no reason to think so), but someone needs to prove it. Mr. Vance has been asking for a bigger plate for the 2001 for a long time now, but until someone builds the SMAC a top 2001 or someone takes the time to put one together (and has a top driver try to win a race in it), it's really hard to say. I hear what Tyler's dad is saying (that no one at the Runoffs is campaigning one, but just because one isn't there, it doesn't mean they can't be fast.

Bobby said something about not being able to get his 2001 to where it needed to be, but I don't know how far he went in his motor development program with Rebello. I have a feeling there was more left on the table. It did okay at Laguna, but he said he was down on power. I think he got 7th (but qualified poorly).

My point was made above. Bob Stretch has moved on from SM but built a no expense spared 2001 and could not compete. Top notch driver, top notch build. Casey seems to know a thing or two about the 2001+ cars as well. Is everyone so scared that the car they have is going to be obsolete that we won't allow a different RP for the 2001+? How about someone put one on a dyno and make some real RP suggestions? Absent of that- I know how folks hate objective data- I'm going to propose a 48mm plate.
Oh... about objective data for William- there were over 80,000 Miata produced from 2001-2005.

Flame Away [flamed]

I knew I should have bought that 02 car for sale in Oklahoma! LOL!

--------------------
Blake Clements

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quote:
Originally posted by Danny Steyn:
Hey guys

please do not jump off the deep end on this - lets face it - Road America does favor the '99, no question. Please see Keith Verges report in the original thread Runoffs News. Heres a guy with both and he thinks that they are close.

Dont take one isolated point and extrapolate off the chart - this can be done both ways.

I am heading to the SIC at Roebling in October. This track definitely favors the 1.6 and we are taking both the 1.6 and my '99 to test both.

just saying!

I haven't seen anyone jump off the deep end in this thread. My general perception at this point is the CRB failed to make the correct adjustment to tempt a single front runner to try the 1.6 or 1.8 at the big race. Too bad.

Again, last year everyone seemed sure that the 1.6 would be the car to have at RA with the rules change. I can certainly go dig up those threads. Why does it now seem to be a foregone conclusion that the 99 is the car to have at RA?

BTW here is the quote from Keith
quote:
Originally posted by kverges:

The 1.6 I am driving is as good as I can make it, but it does not have the grunt to pull out of a draft and overtake any of the 1999 cars I have been around on the run from T14 to Start/Finish. Maybe someone else's 1.6 does, but I doubt it.

That said, parity here is like tring to make apples taste like oranges. I actually think parity is about as good as it can be - the 1.6 and later cars are just plain different and this track I think plays to the strengths of the 1999 cars in a way that to slow them much more would cripple them in shorter, more technical tracks.


I thought the 99 was supposed to be better at shorter tracks and worse at tracks with long straights due to restrictor. What am I missing? something change?

-bw

--------------------
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quote:
Originally posted by Casey Z:
One other thing, the 01+ cars do need help. They can't compete with a well prepped 99 and they have to run the same configuration. If the car is going to be eligible to race it needs to be made competitive. It needs a larger plate. I was involved in a very top flight 01 development program and can tell you there is no way to legally make them work as is. Just my experience and my take. Carry on... [Wink]

Not sure that is the case. Once more people start building them they will figure them out. People aren't building now why? I don't know but I would guess to some degree it is because there are many more 99 and 00 donors out there and those donors are probably cheaper than an 01+ donor. Why spend the extra money. Are there differences, i am sure there are.

Like Danny said above, Fowler has an 01 and it is FAST. I raced against him at VIR earlier this year and that car was very competitive. All years were very close, a 99 won-Todd, a 1.6 finished 2nd and 3rd, a 99 finished 4th (me), and a 1.8 finished 5th. Fowler would have finished 2nd or 3rd in his 01 but went off with a couple laps to go.

--------------------
Tim Jacobs
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quote:
Originally posted by mdavis:
quote:
Originally posted by Sean Yepez:
quote:
Originally posted by Blake Clements:
quote:
Originally posted by Sean Yepez:


The 2001 may need a bigger plate, but it's impossible to know that without having a top-prepared 2001 there driven by a top driver.

How does anyone know that a top builder hasn't built an 01? Its obvious OPM has one. Others have built too.

I heard Bobby Carter's was real fast too?

I really have no idea. I haven't seen a competitive one run. It could very well be at a disadvantage (though I have no reason to think so), but someone needs to prove it. Mr. Vance has been asking for a bigger plate for the 2001 for a long time now, but until someone builds the SMAC a top 2001 or someone takes the time to put one together (and has a top driver try to win a race in it), it's really hard to say. I hear what Tyler's dad is saying (that no one at the Runoffs is campaigning one, but just because one isn't there, it doesn't mean they can't be fast.

Bobby said something about not being able to get his 2001 to where it needed to be, but I don't know how far he went in his motor development program with Rebello. I have a feeling there was more left on the table. It did okay at Laguna, but he said he was down on power. I think he got 7th (but qualified poorly).

My point was made above. Bob Stretch has moved on from SM but built a no expense spared 2001 and could not compete. Top notch driver, top notch build. Casey seems to know a thing or two about the 2001+ cars as well. Is everyone so scared that the car they have is going to be obsolete that we won't allow a different RP for the 2001+? How about someone put one on a dyno and make some real RP suggestions? Absent of that- I know how folks hate objective data- I'm going to propose a 48mm plate.
Oh... about objective data for William- there were over 80,000 Miata produced from 2001-2005.

Flame Away [flamed]

Bob's attempt at the 01 was BEFORE the adjustment to a larger RP. Bob built my 99 and a 1.6 for me so I was lucky enough to be a "friend" of Bob's. With the smaller RP, Bob indicated he would come up a few HP short of his 99, but better torque. I have seen dyno data of the effect of a 2 MM RP change. That gets the 01 up to roughly within 0.5 to 1.5 HP of his 99. How close is enough with more torque? Maybe we should give the SMAC/CRB some credit that they had similar dyno data they used to establish the present plate size.

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All you 99 owners seem to be experts on the 01 and you all "know somebody" or "have raced against" a fast 01. I paid 5k for my 01 donor. Is that very far off a 99. It was a clean 100K car. If there aren't any of these cars out there what are you all so worried about?

And lets get it straight - Nearly EVERY major shop I have spoken with has built a 01 and they all drawn the same conclusion, the car is NOT competitive even with the 43mm plate. Let me ask this... Where is the East Street 01? It has undoubtedly been "fully prepped". Do you think Jim just decided to leave his faster car home this weekend to go easy on the field [Wink]

Let's put it in perspective - If you owned a race shop and could build a car that was faster than any other in the class wouldn't you do it. It would mean more builds, more engine tuning, more MONEY!

In karting I was paying 3k a pop for the "hot" 80cc motor for my kid. Why, because it was fast. The principal is the same here, the shop that builds the fastest car reaps the benefit and gets the CASH!

--------------------
http://TylerVanceRacing.com

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And you built an 01 because?

Sell it and buy another car if its that bad....

--------------------
Blake Clements

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quote:
Originally posted by Tvance13:

Let's put it in perspective - If you owned a race shop and could build a car that was faster than any other in the class wouldn't you do it. It would mean more builds, more engine tuning, more MONEY!

In karting I was paying 3k a pop for the "hot" 80cc motor for my kid. Why, because it was fast. The principal is the same here, the shop that builds the fastest car reaps the benefit and gets the CASH!

Oh so this discussion is not about parity, it is that the 01 should be the fastest and it is not, it is only equal, so we need to help it. Ok I get it now. The 01 needs help. [Smile]

--------------------
Tim Jacobs
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Blake - Would you buy an 01? Be honest.

Given the current rules the car is worth a fraction of what I have invested. Why start over? When the 1.8 was kicking everyones ass you all worked to slow it down. I am doing what any of you would do if you had a 01. I am trying to make it competitive.

--------------------
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I'm curious. What kind of motor package do you have in your car? Have you had it worked over by ART, RE, Sunbelt, Rebello, Rossini, or East Street?

--------------------
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Let's back up to first principles here. What's the benefit of making the '01 - '05 cars faster? As far as I can tell, it's (1) satisfying some people's concept of fairness and (2) helping the very small number of people currently trying to be competitive in cars of that generation.

Now, what's the risk? The risk is that any error that accidentally made the '01 - '05 cars faster than the other years would make it hugely more expensive to be competitive, not primarily because of the cost delta between an '01 donor and an earlier one, but rather because everyone who currently owns a non '01 - '05 car would have to pony up for one, and sell their now-uncompetitive earlier car at a loss.

One could reasonably argue that the SMAC and CRB could make very careful, incremental changes until the cars are in perfect balance, and this year's restrictor plate change suggests that that's exactly what they're doing. There's still danger here, though; even if they get it right in aggregate, as this year's Runoffs appear to be demonstrating, the '01 - '05's different torque characteristics could still make it dominant on key tracks (like where the ARRC or the Runoffs are held).

Seems to me that the worst case outcome of speeding up the '01 - '05 cars, even if somewhat unlikely, far outweighs the benefit in this case, and thus that we should leave well enough alone.

--------------------
Stephen Hui - '95 SM #86, Northwest / Oregon Region SCCA

Tvance13
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Tim - Please, that is not the point by a LONG SHOT. The point is making the car competitive. When one of the top drivers in my region sold his 01 to build a 99 I knew the writing was on the wall.

Sean - Really makes no difference what I have done to my car. The point is that if the car was competitive, even close to a 99 there would be someone racing it at the runoffs. Jim Drago of East Street has worked on this car and I will ask the question again. DId he decide to leave his faster car home this weekend?

I can throw as much money as I want at this and it will not be as fast as a 99. Period. I have been told that by three different shops, two of which you have listed above.

--------------------
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quote:
Originally posted by Tvance13:

The point is that if the car was competitive, even close to a 99 there would be someone racing it at the runoffs.

Why? If they already have a 99 or 00 why would they spend the money to build an 01 just to be "competitive". Seems to me the only reason they would is if there was not question it would be the faster car, not an equal car. I think some have proven that they can be just a fast. That does not mean it makes any sense to build them.

--------------------
Tim Jacobs
Montgomery Irrigation

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Was it this year that they told you that? In my opinion, it does make a difference what you have done to your car. If you have a donor or crate motor, you will obviously be down on power to most of the people in this region who have a full build by ART or Sunbelt.

Nobody is even running a '99 (let alone an '01) in Northern California besides Dion Johnson who bought Blake's car. If you are interested, I could drive the car back to back with a competitive 1.6 and a competitive 1.8 so we can see how far off your car is.

--------------------
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Not everything has been done to an '01 relative to the '99 IMO. Not enough drivers out there willing to shell out the $40k... yet (including Drago lol). So, it is slower right now. It needs a tad bit but not much more than allowing locking down the cam. The added compression with a set cam would make up for the weaker fuel curve IMO.

As for Drago not taking that car, he also did not take the other '99s sitting there or the '95. The one he took rolls the best (fish scale), drives the best and he likes it etc.... Sticking the best motor in it was just part of the equation. Even the Drago '99s, his own cars, are not equal to each other yet built the same [Big Grin]

I'm feeling the force draw at me....... I suspect my post count is due a burst....

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by J.D.:
[QB] Not everything has been done to an '01 relative to the '99 IMO. Not enough drivers out there willing to shell out the $40k... yet (including Drago lol). So, it is slower right now. It needs a tad bit but not much more than allowing locking down the cam. The added compression with a set cam would make up for the weaker fuel curve IMO.


The 2001 car is potential. I built one had both a RE motor and a Rebello. Motors were good. I rushed Bob @ RE for mine, so we left some on the table. Car was good at Buttonwillow National qual 3rd in its first race behind Drennan and Hall...NO slouches..Built the next motor with Dave and car was ok...better with the fuel..
I don't have a car anymore...moved on to 1/4 midgets with my 5 year old, but the 2001 does need some help. Drago and I bounced thoughts off of each other as he built one after mine. It needs a bigger RP or something to help fuel curve as JD said...Just needs development and it will be good...makes great torque above 120!!!!

Any questions just call...

Bobby

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quote:
Originally posted by Tvance13:
I can throw as much money as I want at this and it will not be as fast as a 99.

I am not an expert on tuning or setup. So consider the source.

I have been reading this forum for the last 3 years. There has been a lot of talk about parity. I rember reading how people have spent a lot of money to prove what and what is not woking.

I sugest that you spend some more money on the dyno and at the track trying different setups while your son drives the car. I would also sugest that while you are trying the different setups get and save your data. Then when you can get teh car up to speed you can then sugest some changes that may work.

Have a great day,
Jared

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quote:
Originally posted by Tvance13:
I can throw as much money as I want at this and it will not be as fast as a 99.

You bought the car first and started to learn of its perceived handicaps second? Why can't you just chalk this one up to "lesson learned" and quit bitching?

If you are sticking with the '01, ship it to OPM and get it as good as possible.

Your incessant whining on the forums will do NOTHING to achieve the parity you seek.

Back under my rock...

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Here's the slightly funny part ... he's right.

When you let a car into the class, you make an implied promise that it will be competitive (able to win under equal prep levels).

The really funny part is that anybody with a brain would realize that including cars after the 1.6l car is this classes second biggest problem. It would be just as much fun with only the 1.6l car and there would be none of this parity BS.

Who can guess the #1 problem? I bet the tow truck driver at Road America knows.

But hey, this drama sure is fun to watch.

-Kyle

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Wow - I am now enlightened. Thanks for that clarity Steve. OPM - Who knew? I am loading the car on a flat bed as we speak. Problem solved.

--------------------
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