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Author Topic: Runoffs results parity discussion
misterwaterfallin
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quote:
Originally posted by CP:
Slightly off-topic, but I vote for sealed motors. Costs are getting out of hand in this, a series that was developed to be "cheap entry-level racing." My bone stock crate motor (@15K miles) in my 99 can't keep up with the "pro motors" in my region, be it a pro 1.6, pro 1.8 or a pro 99. If I can scrape together $8000+ for a professionally built motor then I can run with the top dogs, but that defeats the purpose of the class.

that would be nice but unfortunately i dont think its going to happen. as some one who is looking to step up his motor program next year, I would surely vote for this option if it gets added to the list

--------------------
-Mathew Waterfall
Number 07 SM
Red/black/mud

mr von charbonneau
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who gets the motor deal I will bid on that won

free six pack to all me peeps who buy a motor from me
i will seal it with a kiss

not going to happen.

Danny Steyn Verified Driver
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And as Mr Carbonuckle will testify, in SRF, where the engines are coming sealed directly from the engine supplier, in theory it should create a VERY equal playing field.

But, as in all forms of racing, there are those with deeper pockets, and the those that have depper pockets will buy many sealed engines during the year, spend time on the dyno, determine which of the "identical engines" is MORE EQUAL than the other, keep that one and sell the others.

If you think that sealed engines will keep down the costs to get to the front, I think you havent been around motor racing for too long. In my experience this happens at the pointy end of the field in any competitive sport...

Just my $0.02

--------------------
Danny
http://www.dannysteyn.com
http://www.adeptstudios.com
OPM Autosports | Traqmate | Rossini Racing Engines
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d mathias Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Has anyone asked the Genie what to do?

Casey Z Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Danny Steyn:
And as Mr Carbonuckle will testify, in SRF, where the engines are coming sealed directly from the engine supplier, in theory it should create a VERY equal playing field.

But, as in all forms of racing, there are those with deeper pockets, and the those that have depper pockets will buy many sealed engines during the year, spend time on the dyno, determine which of the "identical engines" is MORE EQUAL than the other, keep that one and sell the others.

If you think that sealed engines will keep down the costs to get to the front, I think you havent been around motor racing for too long. In my experience this happens at the pointy end of the field in any competitive sport...

Just my $0.02

Danny,

While your basic premise is true, your conclusion is not. The status quo has the top guys developing their own heads and going through several pro motors a year at a cost of 5-7K per motor plus flow bench time, etc. Pombo stated publicly that he was on motor number three this year at the Runoffs and that is probably about average for the pointy end. I know of other programs that have taken it even further.

I do agree that if we had a sealed program people would still buy several motors and pick the cherry one to run. The difference is in a sealed program even the guy that only buys one a year could afford to buy 2-3 sealed motors and pick the best one to run at the same cost. Plus, if you get the power variance down to say 1-2% the guy that only buys one will still be closer to the best power available at a fraction of the cost.

While I agree that the guys that want to spend the most will always have the best gear, the question is how big a gap does that create? A sealed program will close that gap and decrease costs. That isn't an assumption on my part, it is a fact. Plus it gets rid of the continued problems in tech when they have to look at heads that everyone knows have been massaged (mine included) and have to try to decide how massaged is ok. That isn't in line with the FSM and it isn't in line with the philosophy of the class.

The only people that loose with a sealed program are the motor builders.

--------------------
----------------
Z Brothers Racing / East Street Auto

Casey Z - 1.6 Kettle
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Cajun Miata Man Verified Driver
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Casey,

Well it doesn't really matter who is right or wrong. The sealed motor ship saled long ago. That won't happen.

It might bring the costs down for some, but would raise it for the majority who runs junkyard and/or homemade equipment. A sealed motor won't be the price of a Mazda crate. I wouldn't even trust a Mazda crate anyway.

How much are those dinosaur SRF engines?

--------------------
James York


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Casey Z Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Cajun Miata Man:
Casey,

Well it doesn't really matter who is right or wrong. The sealed motor ship saled long ago. That won't happen.

It might bring the costs down for some, but would raise it for the majority who runs junkyard and/or homemade equipment. A sealed motor won't be the price of a Mazda crate. I wouldn't even trust a Mazda crate anyway.

How much are those dinosaur SRF engines?

I really don't think that the ship has sailed. I think we all need to be looking at the future of the class three to five years from now and make decisions that will support the health of the class in the long term.

If we could get Mazda to seal crate motors as is, no dyno no nothing, just add seals I would think it might add maybe 10% to the cost of a crate? You would still be sub 3K for a motor. Make it a requirement for Nationals starting in 2011 or 2012 and leave regional racers alone. That is where you find the junkyard motors (and the biggest cheater motors too) so they would not be effected.

That type of requirement would not be onerous to national racers and it would go a long way to stopping the spiraling development costs. I would encourage everyone to go walk around the paddock and ask the SRF guys how they feel about their sealed program. I think you might be surprised at their response.

BTW, I hear you on not trusting a Mazda crate. But the main reason you and I both feel that way is you know the level of prep and detail on the motor you have in your car. If everyone was in the same boat I wouldn't be nearly as concerned...

--------------------
----------------
Z Brothers Racing / East Street Auto

Casey Z - 1.6 Kettle
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quote:
Originally posted by d mathias:
Has anyone asked the Genie what to do?

I am sending all the SMAC members magic 8 balls for our next call [flamed]

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
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In regards to the SRF sealed engine program, at the Runoffs, SRF has virtually the same time spread through 20th place as SM has (maybe slightly worse).

--------------------
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Colin MacLean Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Danny Steyn:
But, as in all forms of racing, there are those with deeper pockets, and the those that have depper pockets will buy many sealed engines during the year, spend time on the dyno, determine which of the "identical engines" is MORE EQUAL than the other, keep that one and sell the others

Danny, the argument here is that with the sealed motor program in SRF the disparity between best and worst engine would be around 2hp? So worst case I spend 5K and get 110hp, someone else spends 20K and gets 112hp (then sells the rest). Whereas in SM I buy a crate I get 115hp, someone with a serious motor program ends up with 125hp. That's a BIG difference. Driving can make up 2hp it cannot make up 10.

--------------------
Colin MacLean
Flyin' MacLean Motorsports

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I believe it is a 3 hp window? Look at coast down numbers on the SRF dyno data for the real story, that shows the prep more than anything else
Jim

--------------------
Jim Drago
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Cajun Miata Man Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Casey Z:
quote:
Originally posted by Cajun Miata Man:
Casey,

Well it doesn't really matter who is right or wrong. The sealed motor ship saled long ago. That won't happen.

It might bring the costs down for some, but would raise it for the majority who runs junkyard and/or homemade equipment. A sealed motor won't be the price of a Mazda crate. I wouldn't even trust a Mazda crate anyway.

How much are those dinosaur SRF engines?

I really don't think that the ship has sailed. I think we all need to be looking at the future of the class three to five years from now and make decisions that will support the health of the class in the long term.

If we could get Mazda to seal crate motors as is, no dyno no nothing, just add seals I would think it might add maybe 10% to the cost of a crate? You would still be sub 3K for a motor. Make it a requirement for Nationals starting in 2011 or 2012 and leave regional racers alone. That is where you find the junkyard motors (and the biggest cheater motors too) so they would not be effected.

That type of requirement would not be onerous to national racers and it would go a long way to stopping the spiraling development costs. I would encourage everyone to go walk around the paddock and ask the SRF guys how they feel about their sealed program. I think you might be surprised at their response.

BTW, I hear you on not trusting a Mazda crate. But the main reason you and I both feel that way is you know the level of prep and detail on the motor you have in your car. If everyone was in the same boat I wouldn't be nearly as concerned...

Casey,

I don't think you can lock out regional racers from the requirement. At least not in SOWDIV, maybe elsewhere. If folks having non-sealed motors could only run regionals... you talk about killing the car counts. That would do it. The majority of the SM races and racers run nationals in SOWDIV. Heck if you want to split the class lets just do SM and SM2 (99+), that is what you just proposed but by another twist.

I appreciate Mazda and their outstanding support for us. But have you seen the power and quality variability of Mazda crate motors? I have. Windows of ~6 hp and grenades that destruct on race 1. If the seal program was just that, no dyno or internal checks, I believe my engine costs would increase due to these issues.

I would be ok with a sealed motor program, just contract out a builder for a fixed cost with some power and quality criteria. It would be quite a bit more than a crate, but a much better engine.

I think the SRF engines from SCCA Enterprises are dyno'd and not just crate Ford powerplants.

--------------------
James York


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I don't like the idea of a sealed motor program as I've already spent the money to get a good pro motor. Going to a sealed program now is like telling a guy like me who've already invested in the class, "screw you we're going this way". If we wanted a sealed program, we should have done this a few years ago. Again, whatever we do we should keep in mind the people who've already supported it for years now.

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quote:
Originally posted by D.B. Cutler:
I don't like the idea of a sealed motor program as I've already spent the money to get a good pro motor. Going to a sealed program now is like telling a guy like me who've already invested in the class, "screw you we're going this way". If we wanted a sealed program, we should have done this a few years ago. Again, whatever we do we should keep in mind the people who've already supported it for years now.

I agree with this 100%. Problem is, unless the program started when the class started then someone is always going to be screwed. Question is what is worse-continuing in the direction we are heading and drawing the line and heading down a different path.

I don't know what the right answer is, just saying.

--------------------
Tim Jacobs
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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
I believe it is a 3 hp window? Look at coast down numbers on the SRF dyno data for the real story, that shows the prep more than anything else
Jim

I have seen 5 hp on the dyno (not enterprises). I would jump to SRF where they have a well defined program if SM went sealed. You need one dyno and one or 2 dyno operators for a real sealed program.

-bw

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
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Greg Bush Verified Driver
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If you start a sealed motor program, then it would split the class.

Enough people don't want it or have already spent good money on an engine, so they would start a splinter class.

It would not be up to the rest of the class, it would just happen.

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90-98 SM1

99 and up SM2

Pat

--------------------
keeping the faith for the 1.6

Arrow Karts

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I think if we look at parity as a long term issue a sealed motor program makes a lot of sense. I understand the, I already spent money a pro motor argument. I have too. However the fact of the matter is those motors won't stay "good" forever. Maybe a season or two at most. Therefore you will be buying a new one or freshing the one you have in the next 24 months anyway. Therefore, if you start a sealed program 12 to 24 months out that argument is moot from my perspective.

Also, as far as splitting the class, I think we already have. SSM looks to be growing and it is growing by people leaving SM. What we really need to decide is do we want to be more spec, i.e. SSM/SRF or do we want to allow continued development and end up more like T1/ITA? Right now we are kind of in a no man's land in the middle.

--------------------
----------------
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Casey Z - 1.6 Kettle
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quote:
Originally posted by pat slattery:
90-98 SM1

99 and up SM2

Pat

Pat,

I'd vote for that in a heartbeat. Sure simplify a bunch of issues.

--------------------
James York


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Motor City Hamilton
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I'm not familiar with how the SRF sealed motor program works, so pardon any ignorance. Would a sealed motor program really work? The guy with the most money can still buy multiple motors to sort through and pick the best, right? Instead of $7k per pro motor, he'll just invest that $7k (or $14 or $21 or $28 depending on how many he's buying now)on two sealed motors to find the one that is 5 hp higher.

I did this when I was racing remote controlled cars on a national level. In stock classes where one electric motor was mandated, I would buy a full box of 100 and dyno them all. 15% of them would be a bit better. Those 15 went into my pit box for me and my team. The other 85 were sold to other racers or given away to kids just starting out. I also ran brand new wheel bearings and brand new tires every weekend. A little better is all I needed. A couple of tenths a lap over 40 laps is a nice big lead.

At any level of racing there are three basic variables; money, driver ability and car prep. There is always someone who can afford to buy an advantage. And they will buy better car prep, new tires every run, pro motors or multiple motors, five transmissions to find the smoothest etc.

In my life around racing I have seen only two ways to have true parody. First is make a class that is arrive and drive. Skip Barber offers a nice program for that if you want true parody. Second is don't keep score. As soon as you apply lap times to racing and $15 used bowling tophies to the mix, people will look for an advantage. It is the nature of racing.

I'm liking this class now having raced it for two years on a regional level. I like it better than where I came from IT. The best you can do is keep the cars as close as you can like the CBR has done.

I know that when the nation guys show up for regionals that I'll be a second a lap off them because I don't have the money or time to get my car up to the full spec. And that's fine with me because when I beat one of them with lesser of a car I feel pretty good.

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Motor City, I will take one of your free sealed motors that doesn't pass muster. I'll PM you my address. [Smile]

--------------------
"Your victory is tainted! Asterisk! Asterisk!!!"--Lisa Simpson

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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
quote:
Originally posted by d mathias:
Has anyone asked the Genie what to do?

I am sending all the SMAC members magic 8 balls for our next call [flamed]
All the 8 balls showed up at my address... I kept the best one (it's easily a 8.2) and sent the rest to the other members... Now all I got to worry about is that newer 8.4 you kept...

--------------------
Regards,
Sam H.
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You guys talking about magic 8 balls gave me a flashback to the late 60's.

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quote:
Originally posted by mr von charbonneau:
please hay jamie i will race you to the beer cooler with anyting your 1.6 against my big wheel

I know my limitations and getting between you and the beer cooler is more than I can handle.

--------------------
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Jamie Tucker Series Champ

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quote:
Originally posted by pat slattery:
90-98 SM1

99 and up SM2

Pat

How can I race SM1 and 2 at the same time?

--------------------
2010 ARRC Champion
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Most of the people who race where I race (Oregon Region SCCA, when my car's working) drive 1.6's, so I don't have any expert opinion on what help the 1.6 needs to stay competitive.

But I do want to chime in about the various "ideas" I read from time to time that splitting the class into two (well, two more) classes, the 1.6 making up one class, and all the rest making up the other. This seems to me to be a lousy idea, since it will further splinter the class, the last thing it needs.

If the 1.6 needs help (and all I read from those not fighting a sectarian battle suggests that it does), I would like it to be both as inexpensive as possible, and as simple to tech as possible.

I note one thing, from the point of view of one who has been racing for three years, all in this class. When I started, the pro motors were still exclusively in the front runners' cars; the rest of us were content to be mid-pack on more plebian motors. Since then, the pro motors have largely taken over the mid-pack, at least in Oregon.

So why not admit that the cost of admission has increased, and allow lighter clutches? I'm sure that, with the inevitable demand there would be for them now, the price of a significantly lighter clutch, which would still be reasonably strong and not too hard on the TOB/drive train, would not be horribly high, and it would really help solve the problem.

I am not too enthusiastic about shaving flywheels; perhaps it's the lawyer in me, but that seems like a recipe for at least one disaster, and I suspect that some combination of lighter clutch and different cams could solve the problem more safely.

--Mark

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quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Tucker:
quote:
Originally posted by pat slattery:
90-98 SM1

99 and up SM2

Pat

How can I race SM1 and 2 at the same time?
You could run them seperate or together and score them as two seperate classes.

Thats in reality is what we had at Road America.

Pat

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quote:
Originally posted by Motor City Hamilton:
true parody.

Some think this is what we have now, but want parity [Big Grin]

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Sealed motors is an interesting idea, but we'd have to seal more than just the motors. I can also tell you with 100% certainty that there have been SRF racers that have been able unseal and reseal their motors and that effort included picking through the dumpster outside of the SCCA shop where the motors are sealed for extra seal parts. That was years ago.

If we ask 100 people how to create parity in SM we'll get 100 different answers. My $.02 would be to make the cars more the same which would include more power and weight for the 1.6 and also the larger front bar for the 1.6. 1.8's would get a 4.30 rear and a slight weight adjustment. Maybe a restictor plate change also. The '99's would not be changed much except for weight (reduce). Right now, while the cars are well matched on some tracks, the differences in weight, power and chassis are too large IMO to get parity at both short and long tracks. Anyone know what a 10:1 compression ratio would do for a 1.6? It's a cheap and easy change.

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Another way to reduce the parity debate would be to move the Runoffs back to Mid-Ohio.

Blake Clements Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Cajun Miata Man:
quote:
Originally posted by pat slattery:
90-98 SM1

99 and up SM2

Pat

Pat,

I'd vote for that in a heartbeat. Sure simplify a bunch of issues.

But make sure SM1 and SM2 run in different Run Groups, because I'm sure some people (me) will want to run both.

--------------------
Blake Clements

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Greg Garneau
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quote:
Originally posted by Casey Z:

Also, as far as splitting the class, I think we already have. SSM looks to be growing and it is growing by people leaving SM. What we really need to decide is do we want to be more spec, i.e. SSM/SRF or do we want to allow continued development and end up more like T1/ITA? Right now we are kind of in a no man's land in the middle.

Same thing I mentioned twice in one of the other Runoff's threads...
It makes the most sense. Most importantly (especially to all the people crying about splitting the class), it IS already in place. There is a sealed class in both NASA and SCCA, we just need it to go National and we need to phase/force the 1.6 guys to go that direction. It would be easier & cheaper on the "budget" racers, and it would force the BIG $ guys (like myself [Big Grin] ) to run the 1.8/SM2/99-up class where the cars could run unrestricted and actually be kinda fun. [Roll Eyes]
OBTW, just for the record, we currently run a zillion dollar 1.6

d mathias Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Another way to reduce the parity debate would be to move the Runoffs back to Mid-Ohio.
+1

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Nothing would kill SM like splitting the class. That vast majority do not want it and in my opinion it simply is not needed. I think everybody feels that the 1.6 needs a little help at tracks with hills so fixing that issue should be on the agenda but these cars are a lot closer than people not running in the front want to admit. A simple 20 lbs (or whatever is needed) increase on 99s at tracks like Road America and Road Atlanta would help bring the cars in line at those tracks. At flat tracks just leave the rules the way they are.

--------------------
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larryw
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I agree with Casey,
Add $300 to $500 to the cost of a sealed crate motor to get the horsepower tolerance down to 3 hp and I'm all for the sealed engine program. It works for MX-5 cup, so I'm wondering why it wouldn't for us?

Parity is what will keep this class strong, imo.

Larry

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quote:
Originally posted by larryw:
I agree with Casey,
Add $300 to $500 to the cost of a sealed crate motor to get the horsepower tolerance down to 3 hp and I'm all for the sealed engine program. It works for MX-5 cup, so I'm wondering why it wouldn't for us?

Parity is what will keep this class strong, imo.

Larry

I think if we could make these available this winter, and mandate them 2011, it would work. possibly offer a split class at the runoffs, 1 with the current rules, and one with the new sealed motor. That would give everyone almost 2 seasons to get on board

and for those who would say they dont like the cost, because they already bought a pro motor. You're going to have to have that at minimum serviced to stay competitive, and if it was in the ballpark of a crate it wouldn't cost a whole lot more than a freshen.

then we still have the discussion of different model years

--------------------
-Mathew Waterfall
Number 07 SM
Red/black/mud

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quote:
Originally posted by larryw:
I agree with Casey,
Add $300 to $500 to the cost of a sealed crate motor to get the horsepower tolerance down to 3 hp and I'm all for the sealed engine program. It works for MX-5 cup, so I'm wondering why it wouldn't for us?

Parity is what will keep this class strong, imo.

Larry

That works for MX-5 Cup because you are talking about only 3 years of current production coming off the same molds, tooling, and assembly lines.

Compare to SM, with 19 years of 1.6L suppliers, tooling, and design variations alone before adding the 94-97 motors, 99-00 motors, and 01-05 motors.

The better answer are REAL engine rules with REAL enforcement procedures (as opposed to the tired old "thou shalt not improve performance" SS rule, and comparing service manuals to ONE part bought on ONE day out of a 19 year run).

Ironically, your friendly local engine builder is the SOLUTION to parity ... but we need a very defined "recipe" that everyone can build to, and that everyone can MEASURE to, and that recipe needs to be aimed at reusing as many existing blocks and heads as possible.

--------------------
Visit the Midland City Arts Festival!

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Sounds good, forget sealed! spec a 1.8 motor with ALL specs published, whatever year ECU, and let's get this done for 2011. We have really good tools for enforcing specs now with plenty of boroscopes and whistlers nationwide to enforce even at a regional level. A way better "how spec is done" can come out of this!

-b

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Bruce Wilson
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Wow ! I suggestd this years ago and got beat up on this forum for even suggesting it. I guess I'm just ahead of my time...

cnj
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I agree with Bruce. Place the same motor in all the cars by 2001 - set very clear rules - and normalize the weights.

Craig J

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quote:
Originally posted by cnj:
I agree with Bruce. Place the same motor in all the cars by 2001 - set very clear rules - and normalize the weights.

Craig J

sounds good -- if it's 1.6 [Smile]

--------------------
William Keeling a.k.a. Willie the Tard

cnj
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Tard,

I don't actually care if it is a 1.6 or 1.8. Pragmatically it would seem that a later motor would make sense so that we are not trying to keep 20 year old engines going.

Its all semantical, we will all complain about this for years but we will never get the class to accept that ultimately the only way to ensure year model parity is to make the cars virtually identical. We have people complain about having to place $100 right side nets so getting them on board with a $3-4K purchase is impossible. For the record though, I would happily write the check if it ensured parity.

Craig J

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This can be done with junkyard, crate, or pro motors. If some can't afford to at least buy a junkyard motor then their days in racing are numbered anyway.

-bw

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by cnj:

Its all semantical, we will all complain about this for years but we will never get the class to accept that ultimately the only way to ensure year model parity is to make the cars virtually identical. We have people complain about having to place $100 right side nets so getting them on board with a $3-4K purchase is impossible. For the record though, I would happily write the check if it ensured parity.

Wisdom beyond your years.. [Wink]

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----------------
Z Brothers Racing / East Street Auto

Casey Z - 1.6 Kettle
MidDiv National #13

 
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