Spec Miata Community   
search | help | calendar | games | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hello Spec Miata Community » SpecMiata.com » Spec Miata Rules & Competition » Intake Heat Shields Legal? (Page 1)

 - Email this page to someone! | Subscribe To Topic
Page 1 of 2 1  2  next » 
 
Author Topic: Intake Heat Shields Legal?
Eric Barbaric Verified Driver
Member

Region: Kansas City
Car #: 95
Year : 1991
Posts: 311
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Eric Barbaric   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

A 1.6 in the classifieds shows an engine bay with what looks like a large heat shield.

Is that legal?

And don't respond with that "If it doesn't say.." line. It doesn't say a lot of things.

Most SM engine bays I have looked at have not had such a contraption.

Cajun Miata Man Verified Driver
Overdog Driver

Region: Houston; SWDIV
Car #: 15
Year : 99
Posts: 680
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Cajun Miata Man     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Eric,

I couldn't either see or find the ad you reference, but a fabricated heat shield is not legal.

Perhaps you saw the factory heat shield?

I have seen one car actually have an AFM intake fabricated in such a way it had a heat shield built in. It was a pretty tortured interpetation of the rules I thought.

--------------------
James York


sponsored by:
Stan's Auto Center, Lafayette LA
powered by:
East Street Racing, Memphis TN
set up guru:
Gilfus Racing, Austin TX

Gatoratty Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Member

Region: Central Florida
Car #: 3
Year : 1992
Posts: 1304
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Gatoratty     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Not legal. A car had one at the Sebring National last January and the National Compliance team told him to get rid of it!

--------------------
Paul McLester

Eric Barbaric Verified Driver
Member

Region: Kansas City
Car #: 95
Year : 1991
Posts: 311
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Eric Barbaric   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Here's a link to the picture that spawned this thread.

http://classifieds.specmiata.com/large_picture.php?id=4655

Cajun Miata Man Verified Driver
Overdog Driver

Region: Houston; SWDIV
Car #: 15
Year : 99
Posts: 680
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Cajun Miata Man     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

I missed that ad. Nope, not legal.

--------------------
James York


sponsored by:
Stan's Auto Center, Lafayette LA
powered by:
East Street Racing, Memphis TN
set up guru:
Gilfus Racing, Austin TX

Andy Bettencourt Verified Driver
www.flatout-motorsports.com

Region: NER
Car #: 09 ITA
Year : 90, 91, 94 Rentals
Posts: 1109
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Andy Bettencourt   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

I think you guys really need to open up your minds a little. If that shield (or any custom unit) is attached to the allowed (OPEN) unit, it's just part of it. The only restriction is that it can't duct air TOO the filter, says nothing about shielding from heat.

This isn't a case of 'if it doesn't say you can then you can't'...it's a case of 'if it says you can then you damn well can'.

The SP Induction intake everyone runs is totally custom remember. Add a shield to that piece and I would like to know what rule you could cite that says you would be illegal.

I am talking in concept, not about that specific shroud as I can't see where it's connected.

--------------------
Andy Bettencourt
Flatout Motorsports
www.flatout-motorsports.com

Jason Holland Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Mediocrity rules!

Region: SouthEast
Car #: 28
Year : 95
Posts: 3756
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Jason Holland   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

I disagree Andy. I think that piece is not integral to the intake at all. Just because it "touches" it shouldn't make it legal. I can be ok with an intake that has a heat reflective cover or tape or something like that but not another piece that is not integral to the intake itself.

Just seems over the line to me... Not sure how I would protest it but it seems clearly illegal to me.

It doesn't even appear to me that it IS attached to the intake anyway...

Jason

--------------------
Jason Holland
Semi-interested civilian

Andy Bettencourt Verified Driver
www.flatout-motorsports.com

Region: NER
Car #: 09 ITA
Year : 90, 91, 94 Rentals
Posts: 1109
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Andy Bettencourt   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

It for sure has to be attached. It has to be part of the section that is indeed free. I can't find anything that would make it illegal.

--------------------
Andy Bettencourt
Flatout Motorsports
www.flatout-motorsports.com

Andy Bettencourt Verified Driver
www.flatout-motorsports.com

Region: NER
Car #: 09 ITA
Year : 90, 91, 94 Rentals
Posts: 1109
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Andy Bettencourt   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

What rule governs the piece inbetween the AFM and the allowed 'cone filter'? None. It's open. No?

--------------------
Andy Bettencourt
Flatout Motorsports
www.flatout-motorsports.com

Monkeywrench
Member

Region: SJR
Posts: 128
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Monkeywrench     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

What about double walled intakes? (for cooling purpose). Wouldn't this be the same thing? No?

--------------------
-Bob Adams

Jamie Tucker Series Champ

ARRC 2010 Champ

Region: CFR
Car #: 97
Year : 1990/99
Posts: 788
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Jamie Tucker     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt:
What rule governs the piece inbetween the AFM and the allowed 'cone filter'? None. It's open. No?

I like the way you think!!! Although that may be over the line, it appears to be legal to me as the rule is written.

--------------------
2010 ARRC Champion
2010 CFR Champion
2010 instigator of the year
2010/2011 Andrew Von C Wingman

Andy Bettencourt Verified Driver
www.flatout-motorsports.com

Region: NER
Car #: 09 ITA
Year : 90, 91, 94 Rentals
Posts: 1109
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Andy Bettencourt   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

The SPI intake is so prolific that people think anything creative is illegal. Not so guys. That piece is OPEN.

(On edit: provided it doesn't do an illegal function - like ducting air to the intake)

--------------------
Andy Bettencourt
Flatout Motorsports
www.flatout-motorsports.com

Weekend Warrior Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Racing to Cure ALS (Lou Gehrig's Disease)

Region: WDCR
Car #: 56 "Earl"
Year : 1990, 1999 soon to be SM
Posts: 2947
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Weekend Warrior   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

add a small cooler with some dry ice and attach it to the SPI.............

--------------------
http://www.olsinvestfinancial.com
http://www.alsinfo.org
http://www.weekendwarriorracing.com

Blake Clements Verified Driver Series Champ
MegaModerator

Region: SW - Houston
Car #: 6
Year : 99, 96
Posts: 2262
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Blake Clements   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Olson:
add a small cooler with some dry ice and attach it to the SPI.............

Been there, done that [Smile]

--------------------
Blake Clements

PhillipsRacePrep/SP Induction Systems/East Street Racing/MiataCage.com/Carbotech/WBR Graphics

www.blakeclements.com

Gatoratty Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Member

Region: Central Florida
Car #: 3
Year : 1992
Posts: 1304
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Gatoratty     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

9.1.8. Spec Miata Class Specifications
2. 1.6L cars may replace the stock air box with a cone style
air filter assembly. The air filter element is unrestricted. No
ducting or baffling of air to the air filter is permitted.

I guess it will depend upon how the tech inspector and the COA interpret the definition of "cone style air filter assembly" After the fiasco at the runoffs with the COA don't expect them to be as open to interpretation in the future.

--------------------
Paul McLester

Casey Z Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
MegaModerator

Region: MidDiv
Car #: 13
Year : 92
Posts: 2873
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Casey Z     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by Gatoratty:
The air filter element is unrestricted. No
ducting or baffling of air to the air filter is permitted.

Been thinking about this one a bit as I initially agreed with Andy's take. After a bit more thought I think the specific example above is non compliant as the heat shield looks like a baffle to me. That said, I think dry ice and or a wrap is just fine. The key word in this example is the word "baffle".

You could take it further and say that any heat shield is a baffle, but I don't think that is the case. I am cherry picking here, but a quick google finds the definition that explains why I think it is a baffle.

Baffle = a flat plate that controls or directs the flow of fluid or energy

--------------------
----------------
Z Brothers Racing / East Street Auto

Casey Z - 1.6 Kettle
MidDiv National #13

Jamie Tucker Series Champ

ARRC 2010 Champ

Region: CFR
Car #: 97
Year : 1990/99
Posts: 788
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Jamie Tucker     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

It would not consider that a baffle at all! It does not direct airflow and only serves to slow heat transfer to the intake tube. No different than mine being wrapped in tin.

--------------------
2010 ARRC Champion
2010 CFR Champion
2010 instigator of the year
2010/2011 Andrew Von C Wingman

pat slattery Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Veteran Member

Region: cincy
Car #: 79
Year : 92
Posts: 1495
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for pat slattery     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Huge stretch in the rules, what purpose does it have other than a big heat shield?

Maybe we can attach a turbo to the intake also. [Wink]

Pat

--------------------
keeping the faith for the 1.6

Arrow Karts

David Dewhurst
Veteran Member

Posts: 574
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for David Dewhurst     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

***Rule

No ducting or baffling of air to the air filter is permitted.***

***Baffle = a flat plate that controls or directs the flow of fluid or energy***

If we look in the GCR glossary definition we will find that the item talked about is not a baffle. "A plate or panel in a fluid container,"

As long as the item is attached to the intake "air filter assembly" it is what it is. [yep]

--------------------
Have Fun [Wink]

David Dewhurst
CenDiv
Milwaukee Region
Spec Miata #14

Weekend Warrior Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Racing to Cure ALS (Lou Gehrig's Disease)

Region: WDCR
Car #: 56 "Earl"
Year : 1990, 1999 soon to be SM
Posts: 2947
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Weekend Warrior   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by Blake Clements:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Olson:
add a small cooler with some dry ice and attach it to the SPI.............

Been there, done that [Smile]
I should have known... [Big Grin]

--------------------
http://www.olsinvestfinancial.com
http://www.alsinfo.org
http://www.weekendwarriorracing.com

dtfastbear Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
faster than the average bear...

Region: SFR / NorCal
Car #: 72
Year : 93
Posts: 1276
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for dtfastbear   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

I agree 100% with Andy. Intake and filter are open and a shield isn't forbidden unless it directs AIR (the rule doesn't say "deflects heat"). The NASA rules specifically prohibit anything that attempts to COOL the air below ambient but are silent on the prevention of the air from becoming heated above ambient. Also note the use of the words "comprised of components" when referring to the cone air filter.


12.2 Air Filter
1600cc engine powered vehicles may use a cone-type air filter.
1800cc engine powered vehicles must use the stock air filter housing.
Any filter may be used, providing that it is comprised of components and materials other than air
cooling systems, cooling chemicals, or cooling chemical compounds. No devices such as ducting
or air deflectors are permitted to direct air to the air filter.
12.3 Definition
For the purposes of Section 12.2, “cooling systems,” “cooling chemicals,” and “cooling chemical
compounds” means any system or substance that enables a transfer of heat, by convection,
conduction, or radiation that causes the air entering the engine to be cooler than ambient, and / or
contain additional chemicals than normally found in ‘air’ as defined by the Handbook of Physics
and Chemistry (CRC).

--------------------
NASA Nor Cal SM series Director
www.molaps.com

Winner - Ford Racing Mustang Challenge Driver Shootout

Evil Genius Racing / Race Engineering / Stewart Development

disquek Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Veteran Member

Region: New England
Car #: 92
Posts: 1993
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for disquek     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

The purpose of the intake is to direct the air from the filter to the AFM.

The purpose of that heat shield is to prevent the heat from the exhaust from heating the intake air. This function is unrelated to the function of the intake itself.

What other functions can an appendage I attach to the intake serve?

-Kyle

Steve D. Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Once you get past the gag reflex, the jelly ain't bad!

Region: Atlanta
Car #: 30
Year : 1999
Posts: 652
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Steve D.     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by pat slattery:
Huge stretch in the rules, what purpose does it have other than a big heat shield?

Maybe we can attach a turbo to the intake also. [Wink]

Pat

And here I thought you saved all your rational arguments for the anti-99 campaign?!?!?! [duck]

dtfastbear Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
faster than the average bear...

Region: SFR / NorCal
Car #: 72
Year : 93
Posts: 1276
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for dtfastbear   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Kyle - I'd say get creative with your appendages and let's talk about it [Smile]

--------------------
NASA Nor Cal SM series Director
www.molaps.com

Winner - Ford Racing Mustang Challenge Driver Shootout

Evil Genius Racing / Race Engineering / Stewart Development

Jason Holland Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Mediocrity rules!

Region: SouthEast
Car #: 28
Year : 95
Posts: 3756
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Jason Holland   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by dtfastbear:
I agree 100% with Andy. Intake and filter are open and a shield isn't forbidden unless it directs AIR (the rule doesn't say "deflects heat"). The NASA rules specifically prohibit anything that attempts to COOL the air below ambient but are silent on the prevention of the air from becoming heated above ambient. Also note the use of the words "comprised of components" when referring to the cone air filter.


12.2 Air Filter
1600cc engine powered vehicles may use a cone-type air filter.
1800cc engine powered vehicles must use the stock air filter housing.
Any filter may be used, providing that it is comprised of components and materials other than air
cooling systems, cooling chemicals, or cooling chemical compounds. No devices such as ducting
or air deflectors are permitted to direct air to the air filter.
12.3 Definition
For the purposes of Section 12.2, “cooling systems,” “cooling chemicals,” and “cooling chemical
compounds” means any system or substance that enables a transfer of heat, by convection,
conduction, or radiation that causes the air entering the engine to be cooler than ambient, and / or
contain additional chemicals than normally found in ‘air’ as defined by the Handbook of Physics
and Chemistry (CRC).

Well, consider this rule tightened up this year....

don't show up with something like that to a nasa race next year...

Jason

--------------------
Jason Holland
Semi-interested civilian

pat slattery Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Veteran Member

Region: cincy
Car #: 79
Year : 92
Posts: 1495
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for pat slattery     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by Steve D.:
quote:
Originally posted by pat slattery:
Huge stretch in the rules, what purpose does it have other than a big heat shield?

Maybe we can attach a turbo to the intake also. [Wink]

Pat

And here I thought you saved all your rational arguments for the anti-99 campaign?!?!?! [duck]
I have given up, I am building a 99. [laughing]

Pat

--------------------
keeping the faith for the 1.6

Arrow Karts

Louis Interdonato
Member

Region: wdc
Car #: 90
Year : 93
Posts: 1132
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Louis Interdonato     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by Eric Barbaric:
Here's a link to the picture that spawned this thread.

http://classifieds.specmiata.com/large_picture.php?id=4655

That is a K&N unit....the dyno numbers were not that good compared to others.

--------------------
WDCR SM # 90 http://www.rpperformanceracing.com/

dtfastbear Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
faster than the average bear...

Region: SFR / NorCal
Car #: 72
Year : 93
Posts: 1276
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for dtfastbear   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Even as someone arguing for the legality of a heat shield that is "part of" the intake and/or air filter, I would question the heat shield that is in the picture linked above. That thing seems to be shielding the AFM, as well, which I would say IS a tortured interpretation of the rules.

I'd vote for more specificity in the rules (agree with Jason), but I'd love to see the rules allow for small shields that don't extend [much] beyond the dimensions of the intake or filter. I think the insulation in particular makes the engine provide more consistent power over the duration of a race, which I believe is empirically a good thing.

Cheers,

Dean

--------------------
NASA Nor Cal SM series Director
www.molaps.com

Winner - Ford Racing Mustang Challenge Driver Shootout

Evil Genius Racing / Race Engineering / Stewart Development

backusm Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
Member

Region: CenDiv
Car #: 94
Year : 90
Posts: 1319
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for backusm     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Where are you measuring ambient. It's different on one side of that shield than the other.

The definition of baffle in the GCR refers to fluid. So we go to the common definition cited above. Baffle = a flat plate that controls or directs the flow of fluid or energy. That plate controls the flow of energy and air. By virtue of the fact that it is restricting airflow from the engine side of the intake, it is increasing airflow from the other side of the compartment. Thus, it is directing specific air to the intake. It doesn't have to be a directional funnel.

Imagine a wing put under the car but attached to the "free" exhaust. It would create downforce and could change the car's handling, but we'd never say that the wing is allowed.

He would have been better off chopping up the intake box and putting the cone inside the remnants. That would have made the discussion more interesting.

--------------------
Mike Backus
90 SM white #94

dtfastbear Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
faster than the average bear...

Region: SFR / NorCal
Car #: 72
Year : 93
Posts: 1276
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for dtfastbear   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

So I would then argue that the shape of air filter itself is designed to alter the flow of air to the intake and should be illegal. Doesn't K&N invest research dollars in making a filter shape that optimizes filtration while improving flow? If K&N mass produced a cone filter that had insulation on one side, would you still call this tortured interpretation or illegal?

Is caking one side of the filter full of mud (or insulating material) illegal, since it would both a) insulate the filter on that side and b) increase flow from the other side? What if I have a big off and lots of dirt ends up on one side of the filter? Is it illegal to run again until I clean it?

Is the flat "plate" on the top of the standard K&N cone filter illegal because it restricts airflow from that direction? What if the intake was oriented such that the top of my cone filter was pointed AT the engine?

Part of the FILTER'S job is to direct airflow. I think it is impossible to argue otherwise, or there wouldn't be filters that are shaped differently or made of different materials. If the filter I design is closed on one side and open on the other, what part of OPEN FILTER does that rule violate? What alternative purpose is it serving other than to direct filtered air into the intake?

It's not so black and white. Just sayin'

--------------------
NASA Nor Cal SM series Director
www.molaps.com

Winner - Ford Racing Mustang Challenge Driver Shootout

Evil Genius Racing / Race Engineering / Stewart Development

Cajun Miata Man Verified Driver
Overdog Driver

Region: Houston; SWDIV
Car #: 15
Year : 99
Posts: 680
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Cajun Miata Man     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt:
I think you guys really need to open up your minds a little. If that shield (or any custom unit) is attached to the allowed (OPEN) unit, it's just part of it. The only restriction is that it can't duct air TOO the filter, says nothing about shielding from heat.
.......
The SP Induction intake everyone runs is totally custom remember. Add a shield to that piece and I would like to know what rule you could cite that says you would be illegal.


Easy. A heat shield can be applied directly to the intake itself and be just as effective if that was the ONLY purpose it was serving. The only reason to extend a "shield" and make it bigger and away from the item "protected" is to gain the additional benefit of impeding the flow of undesirable air. And any device which impedes, obstructs, or "baffles" air is illegal.

As a heat shield its legal, but it crosses the line when it clearly serves another purpose that is explicity prohibited in the rules.

--------------------
James York


sponsored by:
Stan's Auto Center, Lafayette LA
powered by:
East Street Racing, Memphis TN
set up guru:
Gilfus Racing, Austin TX

Andy Bettencourt Verified Driver
www.flatout-motorsports.com

Region: NER
Car #: 09 ITA
Year : 90, 91, 94 Rentals
Posts: 1109
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Andy Bettencourt   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by Cajun Miata Man:
Easy. A heat shield can be applied directly to the intake itself and be just as effective if that was the ONLY purpose it was serving. The only reason to extend a "shield" and make it bigger and away from the item "protected" is to gain the additional benefit of impeding the flow of undesirable air. And any device which impedes, obstructs, or "baffles" air is illegal.

As a heat shield its legal, but it crosses the line when it clearly serves another purpose that is explicity prohibited in the rules.

I was with you all the way up until the last sentence. It must baffle air TOO the intake to be illegal. And since it's not sealed, it doesn't eliminate ANY air. It's a radiant heat thing. Nothing explicitly not allowed about that. Remember the old Racing beat intake people took and turned DOWN, away from the heat? Don't limit yourself to what is available from traditional outlets.

I am asking you all to look at the LETTER of the rules, not what you THINK the intent is. Take your SPI tube, wrap it in the gold foil, attach a heat shield to it that runs any-freakin-where you want...it's legal.

And to the gentleman who made the exhaust/wing example...no go. The exhaust has enough LIMITS on it's design so that would be illegal.

--------------------
Andy Bettencourt
Flatout Motorsports
www.flatout-motorsports.com

Cajun Miata Man Verified Driver
Overdog Driver

Region: Houston; SWDIV
Car #: 15
Year : 99
Posts: 680
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Cajun Miata Man     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Andy,

Let's just say I disagree. If its keeping air away, then it's ducting cool air in. It's creating a favorable seperation toward the inlet.

Nothing about intent here, I don't subscribe to rules intent philospy.

Easy for me. If a car shows up with one at a race I attend and finishes it front of me, it will be protested the next day. If it passes, good for them, then everyone can get one and it's settled. No harm no foul. If they are tossed, and lose the sure to follow appeal to Topeka, then I get to say I told you so.

--------------------
James York


sponsored by:
Stan's Auto Center, Lafayette LA
powered by:
East Street Racing, Memphis TN
set up guru:
Gilfus Racing, Austin TX

Andy Bettencourt Verified Driver
www.flatout-motorsports.com

Region: NER
Car #: 09 ITA
Year : 90, 91, 94 Rentals
Posts: 1109
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Andy Bettencourt   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by Cajun Miata Man:
If a car shows up with one at a race I attend and finishes it front of me, it will be protested the next day.

Well since you have a 99, that would be impossible! LOL! [Smile]

We can agree to disagree for sure.

--------------------
Andy Bettencourt
Flatout Motorsports
www.flatout-motorsports.com

Casey Z Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
MegaModerator

Region: MidDiv
Car #: 13
Year : 92
Posts: 2873
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Casey Z     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by David Dewhurst:
***Rule

No ducting or baffling of air to the air filter is permitted.***

***Baffle = a flat plate that controls or directs the flow of fluid or energy***

If we look in the GCR glossary definition we will find that the item talked about is not a baffle. "A plate or panel in a fluid container,"

As long as the item is attached to the intake "air filter assembly" it is what it is. [yep]

Wow, have to disagree on all counts. In this example air is a fluid and does behave as one. Secondly, the fluid in this case is conducting heat (energy) and the baffle impedes its flow.

Of course that assumes the stewards would listen to logic and basic physics and thermodynamics. Long shot... [Wink]

--------------------
----------------
Z Brothers Racing / East Street Auto

Casey Z - 1.6 Kettle
MidDiv National #13

Andy Bettencourt Verified Driver
www.flatout-motorsports.com

Region: NER
Car #: 09 ITA
Year : 90, 91, 94 Rentals
Posts: 1109
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Andy Bettencourt   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Casey - real question. Does impeding the flow of air in turn qualify as ducting - or baffling air TO the intake under your definition? Take the temp out of it. No ADDITIONAL air is getting to the intake, no air is being directed TO the filter per the rule.

The rule says you can't direct air to the filter...nothing else IMHO.

--------------------
Andy Bettencourt
Flatout Motorsports
www.flatout-motorsports.com

backusm Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
Member

Region: CenDiv
Car #: 94
Year : 90
Posts: 1319
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for backusm     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

But andy, you are directing specific air to the filter, you're just using lower air pressure, rather than a "funnel" to do it.

Imagine for example that the heat shield actually funneled away from the filter, not towards its. You would have a low pressure eddy behind it. Thus you would be directing air from the wheel well towards the intake.

Reading the rule exactly, there's nothing that says the directing of the air has to be accomplished via a funnel or baffle that's pointed at the filter. All it has to be is accomplished.

--------------------
Mike Backus
90 SM white #94

Andy Bettencourt Verified Driver
www.flatout-motorsports.com

Region: NER
Car #: 09 ITA
Year : 90, 91, 94 Rentals
Posts: 1109
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Andy Bettencourt   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

I don't see it as directing air to it or away from it. Heat sheilds don't 'funnel air' in my mind. "directing air" is an 'active' term for me. A shield is a passive wall.

That is where we differ in function and definition although I understand where you are coming from.

--------------------
Andy Bettencourt
Flatout Motorsports
www.flatout-motorsports.com

dtfastbear Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
faster than the average bear...

Region: SFR / NorCal
Car #: 72
Year : 93
Posts: 1276
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for dtfastbear   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

How, then, is the flat top of the filter not a baffle by your definition, Mike? If the flat rubber/plastic top of the filter is pointed towards the motor, its insulating effects would effectively cause a cooler, lower pressure point INSIDE the filter behind that "plate", drawing more air into the filter, no?

This interpretation of the shield as an air "directing" device by lowering pressure behind it seems a more tortured interpretation than what you're arguing against.

Casey, you're saying the engine compartment is a "fluid container" for air? Come on... who's stretching here?

[Smile] [Smile]

Cheers,

Dean

--------------------
NASA Nor Cal SM series Director
www.molaps.com

Winner - Ford Racing Mustang Challenge Driver Shootout

Evil Genius Racing / Race Engineering / Stewart Development

Casey Z Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
MegaModerator

Region: MidDiv
Car #: 13
Year : 92
Posts: 2873
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Casey Z     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by dtfastbear:
Casey, you're saying the engine compartment is a "fluid container" for air? Come on... who's stretching here?

Dean I was hoping someone would take me up on the offer. I will address Andy's point as well. That is exactly what I am saying. I would ask how you cannot see the engine compartment as a fluid container? That is what it is. It is a container that happens to have an engine and for our purposes an intake as well. For the purpose of this discussion air is a fluid and it conducts heat. Therefore the baffle rule comes into play in my thought process.

Let's assume we are arguing this with F1 guys in front of the FIA. Air is a fluid otherwise no one would go to all the trouble of CFD. And EVERYONE goes to the trouble of CFD because it does matter. That is just the fluid argument. You can still fall back on the thermodynamics argument as well due to the baffle language in the GCR rules. Of course this is just talking about it with friends. i.e. what we think really doesn't matter all that much but it is fun to think about.

Now as a more real world example, what if the heat shield/baffle on the intake some how managed to wrap around the whole motor? Is that ok? Think about a really nice insane but still connected bit of engineering. It is a heat shield and a baffle in many ways, but since it is connected to the intake it is open? I don't think so. Sometimes things just are what the are...

Hope we all realize that this is an intellectual exercise and no more. But it is fun! [Wink]

--------------------
----------------
Z Brothers Racing / East Street Auto

Casey Z - 1.6 Kettle
MidDiv National #13

Dusty Bottoms Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
99 all the way!

Region: Lone Star
Year : 1990
Posts: 4253
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Dusty Bottoms     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Edited by Andrew Peacock

--------------------
"Your victory is tainted! Asterisk! Asterisk!!!"--Lisa Simpson

Dusty Bottoms Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
99 all the way!

Region: Lone Star
Year : 1990
Posts: 4253
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Dusty Bottoms     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Edited by Andrew Peacock

--------------------
"Your victory is tainted! Asterisk! Asterisk!!!"--Lisa Simpson

Andy Bettencourt Verified Driver
www.flatout-motorsports.com

Region: NER
Car #: 09 ITA
Year : 90, 91, 94 Rentals
Posts: 1109
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Andy Bettencourt   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Casey,

What if all of this 'heat protection' was done INSIDE the tube? Meaning the exhaust-side just had a molded buldge while the real intake sat inside the entire unit? Serves the same purpose yet is 100% contained inside the intake tube.

What about heat relective tape? It also does exactly what you describe as illegal - no? How about an intake that was sent to HPC? Same deal no?

If you want to fall on Thermodynamics, wouldn't you have to argue that those items are illegal as well? I might agree with you if the intake tube that attaches to the AFM was spec...but it is of open design, material, etc.

Thoughts? My point obviously is to try and point out that even the specific SHAPE of that intake tube changes the flow of air in your 'fluid container' from stock. The SPI, the RB, anything. Therefor you have to accept that piece is open and there will be some not-stock 'air baffling'. Accepting that, you now have to determine if a sheild baffles or funnels air TO the intake. I still say NO. It may change the temp of the air that is already there, but does not add air.

--------------------
Andy Bettencourt
Flatout Motorsports
www.flatout-motorsports.com

disquek Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Veteran Member

Region: New England
Car #: 92
Posts: 1993
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for disquek     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Andy,

Are you arguing that the "heat shield" in the photo is not altering the air flow around the filter? Certainly, it does. Therefore it's illegal.

I think the easiest way to solve these kinds of debates is to take them to their extremes. With the design in the photo, that would be a sheet of metal that runs from the radiator support to the firewall separating the air filter from the engine entirely (but touches nothing except the intake tube). Would you also argue that this is legal?

The extreme of the "wrap" design would just be a very thick wrap. No matter how thick this wrap got, it would not affect the airflow to the filter.

-Kyle

Andy Bettencourt Verified Driver
www.flatout-motorsports.com

Region: NER
Car #: 09 ITA
Year : 90, 91, 94 Rentals
Posts: 1109
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Andy Bettencourt   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

I am not arguing that it isn't altering the airflow around the filter. I am arguring that it isn't sending air TOO the filter...because THAT is what is illegal.

Again, with an open filter design and an open tube between the AFM and the filter, I fail to see how you can say that any alteration of airflow is illegal because they ALL alter the stock airflow...in very different ways. My take on the rule is that they don't want you forcing air TOWARDS the filter. It says that in the rule. A heat sheild does not do that.

--------------------
Andy Bettencourt
Flatout Motorsports
www.flatout-motorsports.com

Andy Bettencourt Verified Driver
www.flatout-motorsports.com

Region: NER
Car #: 09 ITA
Year : 90, 91, 94 Rentals
Posts: 1109
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Andy Bettencourt   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Let me take the minimalist approach. What if you took your K&N and taped off the half which was facing the exhaust manifold?

Legal? I would submit that those who argue that HS's are illegal would have to say that would be illegal too. Right?

--------------------
Andy Bettencourt
Flatout Motorsports
www.flatout-motorsports.com

disquek Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Veteran Member

Region: New England
Car #: 92
Posts: 1993
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for disquek     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

I think the definition of "baffled" is what should be debated.

-Kyle

springfielddyno Verified Driver
Runoffs "MOVE OF THE RACE" (headlights)

Region: Ozark Mountain Region
Car #: 37, 31
Year : 96, 93
Posts: 775
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for springfielddyno   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

i will not judge the intake in picture, because I can't see enough of it... But in general, I agree with Andy...

The flip side is calculate the speed the air moves throught that section... Then decide if the air is in there long enough to pick up any heat... Granted, it doesn't hurt [Wink]

Sam

--------------------
Regards,
Sam H.
www.springfielddyno.com

dtfastbear Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
faster than the average bear...

Region: SFR / NorCal
Car #: 72
Year : 93
Posts: 1276
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for dtfastbear   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Of course that would be illegal, Andy, because tape is just a very this ver flexible plate, right? [Smile]

Casey, of course this is all just good fun. I'm on my way to Thunderhill to test out two LeMons cars today, so my creative engineering juices are flowing!

Cheers,

Dean

--------------------
NASA Nor Cal SM series Director
www.molaps.com

Winner - Ford Racing Mustang Challenge Driver Shootout

Evil Genius Racing / Race Engineering / Stewart Development

Muda Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
ComingToAMirrorNearYou

Region: WDC
Car #: #23
Year : 1991
Posts: 642
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Muda     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Is any of this as useful as letting the hood gasket at the firewall hang loose or not have one at all?

--------------------
Muda Motorsports
"We're all here 'cause we're not all there."

 
Page 1 of 2 1  2  next » 
 

   Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic | Subscribe To Topic
Hop To: