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Author Topic: New Head Specs/2010 engine rules
Jonlee
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2 questions really:

#1. I'm curious if there is a planned release date for the new head specs? I need to have my head rebuilt and plan on waiting until the specs are out to do it.


#2. I have been doing some compression testing today and found that my 1996, 1.8L was fairly low on compression, *125 dry in all 4 cylinders. Did the wet test and 125 in all 4 as well. I didn't get around to doing a leak down because I already know the head needs to come off.

Has anyone seen things like this? Even low compression? I tend to bounce the rev limiter a bit in a few corners instead of upshifting for 1-2 seconds then back down.

* I am at 4,300' altitude so the numbers will be a bit lower than sea level specs.

Thanks,
-Jon

Just changed topic name Jim

[ 11-04-2009, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: Drago ]

--------------------
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bigfred Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Bob Thornton at RE highly recommends staying off the rev limiter....

Al McPeters
#96

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Did he say why?
I do the same.

--------------------
Muda Motorsports
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Me too...

--------------------
-Cy
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andrew_anderson
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quote:
Originally posted by bigfred:
Bob Thornton at RE highly recommends staying off the rev limiter....

Al McPeters
#96

He says this for a VERY good reason.

--------------------
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quote:
Originally posted by Jonlee:
2 questions really:

#1. I'm curious if there is a planned release date for the new head specs? I need to have my head rebuilt and plan on waiting until the specs are out to do it.

I would expect to see them in Fastrack this month. I doubt they will wait till December.

--------------------
----------------
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Casey Z - 1.6 Kettle
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B(Kuch) Kucera 45 Verified Driver
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I was wondering why are they allowing the heads to be changed?

I thought this was a SPEC class!

All this does is allow the guy's with the money determined (change) the rules.I think this has a little to do with low car counts.What I mean by that is.The people looking to get into this class start to add up what it costs to be competitive and it's to pricey for them and they decide to try something else.I remember when I got into this class and a crate motor was the hot ticket and was a front running car.Now you have to have a 20 to 30k car to be competitive,when will it stop!There is nothing spec about the class anymore other then the tires we run.

So what I get out of all this is,if you have enough of the front running guy's at the runnoffs with special mods to there cars don't DQ them just change the rules for next year to allow the mods.

Sorry had a bad day had to vent!

--------------------
Bob
!KUCH!

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quote:
Originally posted by B(Kuch) Kucera 45:
I was wondering why are they allowing the heads to be changed?

I thought this was a SPEC class!

All this does is allow the guy's with the money determined (change) the rules.I think this has a little to do with low car counts.What I mean by that is.The people looking to get into this class start to add up what it costs to be competitive and it's to pricey for them and they decide to try something else.I remember when I got into this class and a crate motor was the hot ticket and was a front running car.Now you have to have a 20 to 30k car to be competitive,when will it stop!There is nothing spec about the class anymore other then the tires we run.

So what I get out of all this is,if you have enough of the front running guy's at the runnoffs with special mods to there cars don't DQ them just change the rules for next year to allow the mods.

Sorry had a bad day had to vent!

I hear where you are coming from, but this isn't a spec class, it is a showroom stock class with some spec parts. Mainly suspension really. Anyone that knows what goes into a SSC/SSB winning motor knows there is nothing stock about it, or spec for that matter. I think the new engine specs are a really good move for the class.

Let's take the "as is" and compare it to the "to be". The "as is" is plop down 7K with a motor builder and take their word that you have a parts bin perfect motor. I do not know of any motor builder that takes that approach. Head work outside the FSM is the norm and it is "legal" because there is no spec to compare it with.

Now let's take the "to be" approach and assume we get some good specs on what can and can not be done to a head. Let's also assume that I can now take my crate and or donor head to my local machine shop and get them to build me a pro head for a few hundred bucks. Add on about $700 in gaskets, parts, etc and I can build up a pro motor for say $1500. That is a good thing for me. Now there is probably 1/2% to be gained in a real motor program, but that is much smaller than the delta that we have now at 5K less the price. That I think is a really good thing.

Everyone is welcome to there own opinion, but I think most that have put in the effort of trying to develop one of these cars will be pretty happy with some good head/motor specs. Those that really hate it will be those that are either not competitive or making a bunch of money off those that have never done the heavy lifting on their own. That is just my take. Let's see what comes down the pike in Fastrack... [thumbsup]

--------------------
----------------
Z Brothers Racing / East Street Auto

Casey Z - 1.6 Kettle
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+1 [thumbsup]

The idea behind the new head specs is to reduce the cost of being competitive. Instead of having to pay $5000-7000 for a pro motor, you will be able to go to your local machine shop and assuming they know what they are doing end up with a competitive motor for a reasonable cost.

The real question is will the new specs make all of the pro motors out there illegal?

--------------------
Paul McLester

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quote:
Originally posted by Gatoratty:
+1 [thumbsup]

The idea behind the new head specs is to reduce the cost of being competitive. Instead of having to pay $5000-7000 for a pro motor, you will be able to go to your local machine shop and assuming they know what they are doing end up with a competitive motor for a reasonable cost.

The real question is will the new specs make all of the pro motors out there illegal?

Just kidding

[ 11-04-2009, 03:13 PM: Message edited by: Jamie Tucker ]

--------------------
2010 ARRC Champion
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+1 too. This is exactly the type of rule that appeals to a newbie.

--------------------
Lee Tilton
1993 Meowta #04
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Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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Before this thread gets crazy like the updating/backdating of front suspensions did let me try to explain.... nervously... [Big Grin]

The rules were written to clearly define what can and can not be done in the engine. The goal was to spec a good head, not an unobtainable head, but a good one. There are specs, weights, parts numbers on almost every internal engine piece. The head work is spelled out with dimensions on any and everything that matters. I really see no "gray" areas left for pro engine builders to gain an advantage other than with exceptional machine work and attention to detail in the assembly. Do not underestimate that as it is still a very important, if not the most important part of the process.
Last year we passed a rule that made all after market parts illegal inside the engine. That eliminated gains on parts that most that weren't engine builders had no idea about, where to get or which to use etc. Low tension rings, valves that flowed better, better bearings and so on. With the redefined rules on the engines, everyone will be building engines out of the same rule book and using the same parts to build them. By definition, that should bring all even closer. Pro builders no longer have an advantage of knowing what will and what won't pass tech, what inspectors can and can't check for etc. We have tooling( go/ no go tools) being made to check all the important things inside the head and these tools will be available to anyone who wants to purchase them sometime after the first of the year as they have not been developed yet. No idea on price, but should be very reasonable and will be sold be SCCA enterprises like the restrictor plates.

In my opinion, pro builders who were pushing the envelope on what they were doing before these rules will lose some HP for sure and local guys who were building engines themselves using local NAPA should pick up a little HP by building their engine to the specs with good machine work and assembly. This rule set should definitely tighten the gap between the 'haves" and the "have nots" not grow it. It will also leave little to no "interpretation" of the rules by engine builders or tech inspectors, there will be simply be compliant and non compliant.
Will there be pro engines out there that are non compliant, yes absolutely there will be. Will all be non complaint, certainly not. You should check with your engine builder to know for sure what YOU have, they have all been consulted. If your engine was truly legal and not "tech legal" nothing in the gray areas played with or manipulated, it will be legal.
Hopefully that explains it a little better. I don't see any way that this will grow the gap or cost anyone more money as Kuch was worried about, that was a major concern of ours when writing the rules.
This passed through CRB last night, should take effect 1/1/10, but like all else has to go through BOD, their meeting is in December. I don't see any reason this wont go into effect. I don't want to release it until it is official, but every engine builder has a copy, so they all know what the rules allow and disallow.
Thanks
Jim
Jim

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
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EAST STREET RACING

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BRAVO to Jim, the CRB and the SMAC. This may finally prompt me to put something better than a $150 Craigslist crapheap engine into my SM. [Smile]

--------------------
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Eric Barbaric Verified Driver
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Great explanation of the intent and impact of this change. Thanks for all your hard work, and the work of others, in getting it done. This is the best thing to happen since $1000 clutches were killed.

SamBarnett Verified Driver
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This is a great idea and I think it will go a long way towards more parity in the class. I think it will give people are more realistic instead of idealistic view the the class and can save DIY people a lot of money.

Does anyone know if part of releasing this head spec is to remove the verbiage (paraphrasing) "no engine modifications that in any way increase performance"?

--------------------
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Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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That is no longer in the rules.
Jim

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
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Let me add my thanks to Drago and all the others that have worked to make and keep this the most popular and affordable class in racing...

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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
Before this thread gets crazy like the updating/backdating of front suspensions did let me try to explain.... nervously... [Big Grin]

The rules were written to clearly define what can and can not be done in the engine. The goal was to spec a good head, not an unobtainable head, but a good one. There are specs, weights, parts numbers on almost every internal engine piece. The head work is spelled out with dimensions on any and everything that matters. I really see no "gray" areas left for pro engine builders to gain an advantage other than with exceptional machine work and attention to detail in the assembly. Do not underestimate that as it is still a very important, if not the most important part of the process.
Last year we passed a rule that made all after market parts illegal inside the engine. That eliminated gains on parts that most that weren't engine builders had no idea about, where to get or which to use etc. Low tension rings, valves that flowed better, better bearings and so on. With the redefined rules on the engines, everyone will be building engines out of the same rule book and using the same parts to build them. By definition, that should bring all even closer. Pro builders no longer have an advantage of knowing what will and what won't pass tech, what inspectors can and can't check for etc. We have tooling( go/ no go tools) being made to check all the important things inside the head and these tools will be available to anyone who wants to purchase them sometime after the first of the year as they have not been developed yet. No idea on price, but should be very reasonable and will be sold be SCCA enterprises like the restrictor plates.

In my opinion, pro builders who were pushing the envelope on what they were doing before these rules will lose some HP for sure and local guys who were building engines themselves using local NAPA should pick up a little HP by building their engine to the specs with good machine work and assembly. This rule set should definitely tighten the gap between the 'haves" and the "have nots" not grow it. It will also leave little to no "interpretation" of the rules by engine builders or tech inspectors, there will be simply be compliant and non compliant.
Will there be pro engines out there that are non compliant, yes absolutely there will be. Will all be non complaint, certainly not. You should check with your engine builder to know for sure what YOU have, they have all been consulted. If your engine was truly legal and not "tech legal" nothing in the gray areas played with or manipulated, it will be legal.
Hopefully that explains it a little better. I don't see any way that this will grow the gap or cost anyone more money as Kuch was worried about, that was a major concern of ours when writing the rules.
This passed through CRB last night, should take effect 1/1/10, but like all else has to go through BOD, their meeting is in December. I don't see any reason this wont go into effect. I don't want to release it until it is official, but every engine builder has a copy, so they all know what the rules allow and disallow.
Thanks
Jim
Jim

+1 [yep]

Pat

--------------------
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Thank you Jim and the SMAC members for your hard work.

--------------------
Paul McLester

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Nice work Jim and the other guys involved! This is a huge step forward for the class [thumbsup]

--------------------
Colin MacLean
Flyin' MacLean Motorsports

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This is clearly a step in the right direction. There will always be haves and have nots in racing, but this tightens it up some.

Will this increase the cost to the class as a whole. NO. The people at the absolute front of the field all have multiple motors, so I don't think they're really all that concerned with "throwing away" 1 head.

Now, if an adjustment is made to the 1.8, but the cars are at parity everywhere but Road America, what's the 1.6 gonna get?? Hijack.

--------------------
Mike Backus
90 SM white #94

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Jim - we luv you dude!!!!!

--------------------
Danny
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B(Kuch) Kucera 45 Verified Driver
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Like I said Jim had a bad day yesterday!

Thank's for explaining it and I can see were your coming from.I just wanted more clear rules about engine building and cylinder work,this should make it better.I didn't want the cylinder work to be left in a gray area if you know what I mean!

Jim - Thanks for all your work!and don't mind me you know I just like to steer the pot! [Wink]

--------------------
Bob
!KUCH!

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Jim your still the man!!!!!!!!!! Although I do like busting you chops!

--------------------
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Jim, quick question will the Stewart Racing Engines head be legal or illegal under the new rules? [Smile]

--------------------
William Keeling a.k.a. Willie the Tard

Jonlee
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Thanks for the reply Jim!

Looks like I'll button up the engine and wait until the specs come out to do any work.

First race in Utah isn't usually until March so I've got some time to figure it out.

-Jon

--------------------
Utah Region SCCA, R.E.
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Cliffy Chains
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Nice Job Jim and SMAC, I think if you ask any one in SM, we just want an even playing field, with attention to be spent on setup, data temps and driving.

Great step to closing the gap for 2010, the field is going to be very competitive for next year !!!!!

--------------------
BDR Motorsports, Autotechnik
Cliff Blanchard
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Looks like a good move what impresses me the most is the speed at which this is getting done. I can recall common sense decisions for Showroom Stock taking years or even worse never getting done. Here's an idea that appears to have been hatched in the last 5 weeks or so that is ready to be put into the rules.

Bravo to all involved.

Bob Thornton - Race Engineering Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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A great step in the right direction. I completely support this rules package and am happy to have been able to contribute to the process of creating the new rule set.

The new rules will clarify some commonly asked questions and allow those who choose to build their own engines to do so. Like Jim said "The professional engine builder will have an advantage, but it is a lesser advantage which is much better for the class as a whole." I think the big advantage will be in tooling and equipment such as Flow Bench, SERDI, Engine Dynos, Cam Doctor, Torque Plate, and Whistler. All necessary tools for building big consistent reliable legal horsepower.

Like many others I have been concerned about the health of the class and as I make my living from Spec Miata it clearly is advantageous, where I am concerned, for the class to be as healthy as possible.

The Race Engineering existing engines will pass the new rules set with no problems or modifications necessary.

Bob Thornton
Race Engineering

--------------------
Bob Thornton
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If current "pro-motors" will pass the new head rules, the new rule is not going to make the field more competitive. Those who choose to use a crate motor will be at the same disadvantage as before. What am I missing?

--------------------
David Spencer
1990 Miata - #87 SM

Bob Thornton - Race Engineering Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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David, with the new specks it takes the gray area out for everyone, we all know what we can do and can not do. No more Tech Shed legal. With the go, no go guages it will be compliant or non compliant that simple no guessing.

--------------------
Bob Thornton
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Bob, thanks for the clarification.

Anyone know when will these new specs be published and if NASA will adopt?

My Sunbelt just completed its second season so I may be in need of a freshening.

Thanks!

--------------------
David Spencer
1990 Miata - #87 SM

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I currently run a crate motor. Will massaging the head only be beneficial, or will I need to massage the bottom end as well to take advantage of the new rule set?

--------------------
Lee Tilton
1993 Meowta #04
Brimtek Motorsports/ Team Four Racing
Team Four Racing

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Lee,

I can't speak for the level of benefit you will have with doing the head verses doing the whole engine but a lot of racers on this site have "Head Only" motors and are quite happy with the outcome.

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Lee-

My opinion so take it for what it's worth. My 1st year of racing was in a $7,000 car with a junkyard 106 HP motor. I spent my budget on DE's and entering as many races as I could afford to better my driving/racing skills.

Will a pro built head add power? Yes, it will do that but that really won't effect your lap times nearly as much as seat time.

Once you have determined that the need for a few more HP is really holding you back then it's a good investment.

My 2 cents...

--------------------
Gale Corley
99 SM GRE Super Deluxe
93 SM GRE Jr. Deluxe

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Gale, thanks for bringing me back to reality. [Smile]

--------------------
Lee Tilton
1993 Meowta #04
Brimtek Motorsports/ Team Four Racing
Team Four Racing

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great... I JUST got my head rebuilt...

will these new changes impact people who DON'T get their cylinder heads rebuilt? as in, will it make that much of a difference that anyone and everyone will want to do it?

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Ridgespeed Racing

#51 J. Andrew Warren

http://www.ridgespeedracing.com

Chris70 Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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When will the new fastrack come out with the specs?

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"Talent is often perseverance in disguise"

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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It will be in next Fastrack.

The specs will not effect you in that there will be gains and you will need to rebuild your head, they will most likley effect more people in the other direction.
Jim

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Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
jdrago1@aol.com
2006-2007 Mid-West Division
07,09 June Sprints Champion

EAST STREET RACING

Chris Fulton
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Just curious, is this all that is being done to equalize the model years?

Jason Holland Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Astro:
Bob, thanks for the clarification.

Anyone know when will these new specs be published and if NASA will adopt?

My Sunbelt just completed its second season so I may be in need of a freshening.

Thanks!

astro, I'm currently reviewing the specs and will make a recomendation for NASA in the next couple of days/weeks. I'll announce the outcome here.

Thanks to everyone involved with coming up with these specs, I do believe they will help keep the class healthy.

Jason

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Jason Holland
Semi-interested civilian

ExRoadRacer
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group hug?

Rob Burgoon Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by ExRoadRacer:
group hug?

damn straight!

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It really makes my week when nobody crashes into me.

Jason Holland Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Hugs! Not drugs!

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Jason Holland
Semi-interested civilian

Bill Etherington
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quote:
Originally posted by Bob Thornton - Race Engineering:
David, with the new specks it takes the gray area out for everyone, we all know what we can do and can not do. No more Tech Shed legal. With the go, no go guages it will be compliant or non compliant that simple no guessing.

Bob and Jim,
Are the go and no-go gages meant more for the engine builders to used during the machining process and/or are they for the tech crew to be used during inspections (protests or otherwise)? Not knowing what the new specs are, I might guess they are intended to be used by the engine builders.

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Bill Etherington
NNJR Tech

Bob Thornton - Race Engineering Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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Bill, the guages are for everyone Engine builders, Tech, home builders, everyone.
This will take the guess work out of the deal the engine will be compliant or non compliant.
The guages will be available to anyone who wants to have them,

Hope this helps.

Bob

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Bob Thornton
http://www.raceengineering.org
Race Engineering Championship Winning Engines

Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Available at a reasonable cost? Will each Division have a set in their tech gear?

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Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

wheel Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Does anyone know if you can send your cams to Topeka, and get a ruling on them? I have cams that were on the car when I bought it. They may or may not be legal, since the motor was built well before any cam specs.
wheel

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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Kent
Yes, each division will have... We don't even have prototypes yet, but all divisions will have.

Wheel
Yes you can, but wait until after January 1. I am in talks with SCCA now trying to get the fee lowered to $100.00 a set rather than $100 per cam.

Jim

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Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
jdrago1@aol.com
2006-2007 Mid-West Division
07,09 June Sprints Champion

EAST STREET RACING

David Dewhurst
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Jim, did I read/hear that the motor gauges will be sold through Enterprises?

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Have Fun [Wink]

David Dewhurst
CenDiv
Milwaukee Region
Spec Miata #14

 
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