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Author Topic: Should SCCA adopt GrandAm Start Rule?
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Team Saferacer

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As a follow-up to the red-hot discussion in the South East forum, I wonder what folks would think of adopting start rules used in GrandAm road racing that require all cars to stay in formation and disallow any passing, or moves to improve position until after you have passed the starter stand. In other words, the drop of the green flag doesn't signal all out racing and drivers must show restraint until actually passing the start/finish line. Penalties for breaking formation are leveled immediately, as offending drivers are black flagged and have to visit the pit road before proceeding.

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No. Enforce the rules already on the books. Throw the black at a pole car that accelerates before the green, and black flag cars that are out of line on the start or leaving a big gap.

The staff should do this, not the other drivers, and only if they are sure of the car in question.

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Rob Burgoon Verified Driver
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It's really not that freaking hard to have a precise double file where nobody gets a jump. You just have to have a starter and stewards that won't take any crap.

If you can get 5 yr olds in quarter midgets to consistently deliver a precision double file start, a bunch of old farts should be easy!

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NO. It would never work.

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2009 SoCal SCCA SM Champion
"Only boring people get bored"

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quote:
Originally posted by Rob Burgoon:
It's really not that freaking hard to have a precise double file where nobody gets a jump. You just have to have a starter and stewards that won't take any crap.

If you can get 5 yr olds in quarter midgets to consistently deliver a precision double file start, a bunch of old farts should be easy!

Amen brother

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NO! NO! NO!. Like everyone else said, enforce the current rules.

Besides, GrandAm start rules are boring. It would take away one of the most exciting part of our races.

Tom

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No.

Instead, train starters to:

1. Always throw the green at the same place;

2. Make that place is where the most possible drivers can see the flag

3. Wave off the start when things are out of line.

And penalize repeat offenders.

As long as the biggest (some might say only) sin in the eyes of the stewards is consenting adults bump-drafting, instead of avoiding real carnage, nothing will change....

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quote:
Originally posted by Rob Burgoon:
No. Enforce the rules already on the books.

quote:
Originally posted by Mark de Regt:
And penalize repeat offenders

What they said...


(NOTE: SoCal Fast NASA Guys - Please please please refrain from speeding-up prior to green & stay on pace... You dudes are creating more risk for us slow-pokes.)

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Thanks,
John Mueller
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark de Regt:

Instead, train starters to:

1. Always throw the green at the same place;


Disagree on this one. This will just cause people to anticipate the green even more. IMO they throw it at the same spot too often already.

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Rob Gibson
RJ Racing
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quote:
Originally posted by Gibscreen:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark de Regt:

Instead, train starters to:

1. Always throw the green at the same place;


Disagree on this one. This will just cause people to anticipate the green even more. IMO they throw it at the same spot too often already.
Disagree with this. If they also waved off the green when people anticipate it, it would solve a lot of problems.

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This thread and the monster CMP crash thread have a LOT of good info for drivers, stewards, and starters alike. My question is this: How do we pass this info onto our local stewards and starters?

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quote:
Originally posted by Mark de Regt:


1. Always throw the green at the same place;

*Facepalm*

I agree with the rest of your points though.

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If throwing the green at a predictable place causes more problems than it solves (and I'm not convinced it does, if start-jumpers are routinely punished), I'm happy to waive that proposal. But the other two I listed are very important.

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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Colangelo:
This thread and the monster CMP crash thread have a LOT of good info for drivers, stewards, and starters alike. My question is this: How do we pass this info onto our local stewards and starters?

Call them and talk about it? Get a "start quality" petition going in your race group and give a copy to the starter, stwards, and their bosses (board of governors?) maybe?

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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Colangelo:
My question is this: How do we pass this info onto our local stewards and starters?

I for one will be speaking to the race director at the next event, hopefully he agrees and thus makes an announcement at the drivers mtg... Then the $50,000 question is will he follow through if the start is jumped / constant pace is not maintained?

quote:
Originally posted by Mark de Regt:
if green at a predictable place causes more problems than it solves (and I'm not convinced it does, if start-jumpers are routinely punished)

Gotta start by killing the jumped-starts then it does not matter where the green flys.

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John Mueller
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I pulled all four of these videos together and posted on the ASedan site. If any of you know stewards, or starter types, send it to them. I am sure they would all appreciate seeing the videos. I really wish there had been video from the starter's stand. That would have made this an incredible teaching tool....Not that it isn't now.
wheel

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I am a cynic, I know, but if no penalties were handed out, despite numerous protests and all those videos being shown to the stewards, what reason is there to think that anybody in a position to prevent such disasters is willing/able to learn from this one?

Apparently the official position is that this was just a racing incident....

David Dewhurst
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I didn't vote. [nope]

If folks (officials/drivers) don't pay attention to the existing rules when highly questionalble actions result in several seriously damaged cars what makes anyone think a new rule will change anything?

In the other thread a couple people made very good comments. Try racing an open wheel car or Kart the way people race the SM & there will be a bunch of people paying the price for no respect to peer racers. [yep]

About 5-6 years ago at Gingerman I passed a car under a full course yellow, realized my mistake, returned the position & promptly was issued a yellow license for 3 months. No crash, no smash, no nothing.

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Have Fun [Wink]

David Dewhurst
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One thing that nobody is willing to own up to in our class is that when the stewards do come down hard by enforcing the letter of the GCR..........everyone gets just as pissed off at the stewards. The GCR says "no contact" and yet we bump draft and get mad when we are called into the trailer for doing it and drivers start saying screw SCCA we are going to race NASA, PCA,etc.
Old thread that applies:
http://forum.specmiata.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/43/4292.html#000001

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Paul McLester

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That's because we want THAT rule changed, and they wont change it.

The proposal is to have them tune their enforcement enthusiasm with respect to the starts, not the whole book.

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B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark de Regt:
If throwing the green at a predictable place causes more problems than it solves (and I'm not convinced it does, if start-jumpers are routinely punished), I'm happy to waive that proposal. But the other two I listed are very important.

Mark, it IS legal to jump the start in SCCA as long as you're still in line before the green flag flies. That is the huge difference between SCCA starts and GrandAm Starts. If I can hit the gas 1 second before the field, I can probably pass a few cars before the S/F. See video in other thread.

-b

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Bruce Wilson
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Bruce, I may have bad news:
J3:
A car that improves its position relative to the field during the
pace lap by moving forward, moving out of line, or passing
before the green flag is displayed may be penalized for a false
start.

I believe nailing the gas early would be a "moving forward".

The starter is looking for a field moving at a "constant slow speed" if you nail it before the green, and he throws the green and makes a note of you, you could be cooked.

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In SM you aren't going to benefit (move forward) from the result of hitting the gas early until well after the green flag flies [Smile] I hate giving this stuff up and I know there's a lot of folks hating me right now for giving it away, but that's the way it is.

We're talking split second stuff here. It's real hard to be a half car length back and do this.

Frankly that is what we are discussing here. GrandAm doesn't allow that, probably because of torque difference of cars. I voted NO as it makes starts a lot of fun. But understand the poll for obvious reasons... other thread.

-b

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Bruce Wilson
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quote:
Originally posted by B Wilson:
In SM you aren't going to benefit (move forward) from the result of hitting the gas early until well after the green flag flies [Smile] I hate giving this stuff up and I know there's a lot of folks hating me right now for giving it away, but that's the way it is.

We're talking split second stuff here. It's real hard to be a half car length back and do this.

Frankly that is what we are discussing here. GrandAm doesn't allow that, probably because of torque difference of cars. I voted NO as it makes starts a lot of fun. But understand the poll for obvious reasons... other thread.

-b

Flank speed astern! Rudder amidships! Blow all tanks! [rolling on floor laughin]

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Except that "nailing the gas" in a Miata does not make a speed difference that can be perceived by the naked eye.

Now if the field were actually crawling before the green, it might be evident.

edit: (oops, Bruce's post beat me to it....what he said!)

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Mike Asselta
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Bruce, I was using "jumping the start" in the broader sense of what the white car was doing--getting out of line and moving forward into traffic, before the green flag.

I've noted the benefit you get when nailing it early, when you start from the back of the field.

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quote:
Originally posted by Rob Burgoon:
Flank speed astern! Rudder amidships! Blow all tanks! [rolling on floor laughin]

I'm not a mariner, but that sounds like how you might pop a wheelie in a submarine [Big Grin]

-b

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Bruce Wilson
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark de Regt:
I've noted the benefit you get when nailing it early, when you start from the back of the field.

Not that I haven't tried to cheat and come blazing out of t12 full throttle, but I'm thinking the stewards might be on the radios saying wait for bruce to hit the back of the field and then throw the green... God knows I've been the source of their entertainment for years [fight]

-bw

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Bruce Wilson
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Colangelo:
This thread and the monster CMP crash thread have a LOT of good info for drivers, stewards, and starters alike. My question is this: How do we pass this info onto our local stewards and starters?

They already know everything.

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quote:
Originally posted by B Wilson:
God knows I've been the source of their entertainment for years [fight]

-bw

So they tell me. In words of reassurance like, "Don't feel too bad about going off in 6 like that. A few years ago Bruce went off there 3 times in a row." [Smile]

--------------------
Keith Novak
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quote:
Originally posted by Gatoratty:
One thing that nobody is willing to own up to in our class is that when the stewards do come down hard by enforcing the letter of the GCR..........everyone gets just as pissed off at the stewards. The GCR says "no contact" and yet we bump draft and get mad when we are called into the trailer for doing it and drivers start saying screw SCCA we are going to race NASA, PCA,etc.
Old thread that applies:
http://forum.specmiata.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/43/4292.html#000001

In fact, the way they get so upset at consenting adults bump-drafting, while ignoring real problems, is why I find the whole mess so annoying.

The only way to get in trouble where I do most of my racing is to be caught bump-drafting, or to have your two left-hand wheels go off at turn 10. Neither causes nearly the issues caused by brain-dead drivers who seemingly don't have mirrors (or, indeed, eyes), and yet, time and again, brain-dead old drivers seem to be protected, despite causing carnage, while people who bump-draft or put two wheels off at T10 are nailed.

If I lived where it didn't rain so much, I'd switch to open-wheel racing, where people really try to avoid contact, and take that out of the hands of stewards.

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In fact, the way they get so upset at consenting adults bump-drafting, while ignoring real problems, is why I find the whole mess so annoying.

+1

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2009 SoCal SCCA SM Champion
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quote:
Originally posted by Keith in WA:
[QBSo they tell me. In words of reassurance like, "Don't feel too bad about going off in 6 like that. A few years ago Bruce went off there 3 times in a row." [Smile] [/QB]

[rolling on floor laughin] [blush] [rolling on floor laughin]

Ah yes, 3 laps in a row. The only time I've ever had a furled black pointed at me. Jeez I hoped nobody would remember that one...

-bw

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Bruce Wilson
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If I've learned anything over the years, it's that there is no for force in the universe as powerful as your friends' memory of every embarrassing moment you've ever had. [Wink]

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quote:
Originally posted by B Wilson:
quote:
Originally posted by Keith in WA:
[QBSo they tell me. In words of reassurance like, "Don't feel too bad about going off in 6 like that. A few years ago Bruce went off there 3 times in a row." [Smile]

[rolling on floor laughin] [blush] [rolling on floor laughin]

Ah yes, 3 laps in a row. The only time I've ever had a furled black pointed at me. Jeez I hoped nobody would remember that one...

-bw [/QB]

I've had that one, but it was for multiple 2 offs per lap. I was angry because I kept slipping in someone's fluid in the bus stop, then felt a little sheepish after I discovered a big mess under my car's hindquarters. [fight]

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Having had some experience with Gtrand Am style starts, I don't like their rule. I believe it will actually increase contact at the start. As drivers accelerate on green and can't move left or right, it causes a lot of front to rear contact and often in a chain reaction. I also think it increases the congestion at the start and into turn 1.

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I'm all for enforcing the rules relating to starts as they exist. At the '08 NASA Nationals I was penalized several positions for being out of line (by more than a half a car width) - with no position gain. That taught me a lesson that I think of with every start.
As my mother in law used to say, "If you don't listen, you have to feel".
Rick
P.S. Regarding the bump drafting hysteria. SCCA. please wake up and allow it (officially).

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Fortune Cookie Racing SM 60
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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH NO Changes

   

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