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Author Topic: Spec MX-5 (SM5)
Dave Gomberg
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In the December Fastrack (CRB Minutes), the CRB recommends creation of a Regional Spec MX-5 class. Due to an editing error, the specifications were not included. If you are interested, you can find them here: http://cms.scca.com/documents/Club%20Forms/Re...ber%202010%20Fastrack.pdf beginning on page 8. Comments are welcomed.

Dave Gomberg
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Mike C Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Please approve the class!

--------------------
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omg
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The shocks posted in the CRB are not the ones that are used in the Pro series. Unless you are doing a new built this would mean a costly change over.

I agree please approve the class.

Terry Whitlock Verified Driver
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Any of the builders out there care to offer an estimate of what it would take to do a new build to these specs?

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Terry Whitlock

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quote:
Originally posted by omg:
The shocks posted in the CRB are not the ones that are used in the Pro series. Unless you are doing a new built this would mean a costly change over.

I agree please approve the class.

The shocks propsed are far less $$ than what the pro series uses, more on the line of SM. Also no required aim dash or AWR cage.

--------------------
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The pro series shock package cost almost 6k. The SM5 package cost just about the same as a an SM package about $1,500 or so including sway bars.


It will cost me less to build an SM5 than a Nationally competitive SM.

Home Build SM5 for less than 15k. Shop built for 25k.

--------------------
Mike Collins
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NER88 Verified Driver
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OK, I'll ask again!
Why do we need another class?
There already exsists classes for these cars to run.
Build the cars, get the numbers up, then create their own class.
What we don't need is another under subscribed class.
"It will cost me less to build an SM5 than a Nationally competitive SM."
Confusing statement, SM5 is a regional class, I can build a regionally competive SM car for less than either!

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Jerry

omg
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I assume AWR cage would be acceptable, so take a Pro series car change out the shocks, good to go?

Colin MacLean Verified Driver
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Since you have to order a new motor when you build the car, what's the cost of a sealed engine and also a rebuild?

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Colin MacLean
Flyin' MacLean Motorsports

Thomas Neel
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Would anyone care to share a good dyno run from a MX5 cup car using a mustang dyno? You can email me directly at parts@partsgroup.com ...Thanks!

--------------------
Tom Neel
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quote:
Originally posted by NER88:
OK, I'll ask again!
Why do we need another class?
There already exsists classes for these cars to run.
Build the cars, get the numbers up, then create their own class.
What we don't need is another under subscribed class.
"It will cost me less to build an SM5 than a Nationally competitive SM."
Confusing statement, SM5 is a regional class, I can build a regionally competive SM car for less than either!

From an SCCA standpoint, I agree. SCCA adding classes is like Federal Government spending. It's out of control. Why can't the MX-5 be adjusted to be more competitive in SSB? There's a struggling class that needs numbers and a competitive MX-5 might be a cure. Can't the MX-5 be included (maybe it is) in the new STL class? If the club adds any classes it should at the same time cut or consolodate at least two.

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Bet you wont be able to build a competitive car for twice the money they are talking about in a couple of years.

There is lots of big spenders wanting the 5 minutes of fame.

If it could be as cheap as Mike says, I would consider building one, but.... where do you race it at. SM fields aren't very big in the Great Lakes, Cen Div area to begins with.

Pat

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The SCCA just agreed to the request from racers who wanted a standard set of rules for MX 5, across the country. It will be a regional class, like many others that are not included in National racing. You may also enter the MX 5 in National classes, modified to the National rules. SCCA does not want any new National classes.

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The SCCA just agreed to the request from racers who wanted a standard set of rules for MX 5, across the country. It will be a regional class, like many others that are not included in National racing. You may also enter the MX 5 in National classes, modified to the National rules. SCCA does not want any new National classes.

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quote:
Originally posted by wheel:
The SCCA just agreed to the request from racers who wanted a standard set of rules for MX 5, across the country. It will be a regional class, like many others that are not included in National racing. You may also enter the MX 5 in National classes, modified to the National rules. SCCA does not want any new National classes.

How many racers? 2?
Was their interest in racing them or building them?

--------------------
Jerry

omg
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I own an MX5 cup car that was raced in the Pro series for the last two years. A new engine is $4,000.00. Order from Mazdaspeed, Comptech dynos the engine before sending out.

Another question is the ECU. The Pro series cars use a modified ECU by DynoTune in Texas.There are other ECUs out there that are even stronger. The ECUs are checked in the Pro series, if not checked in the regional races watch out.My car dynoed at RP performance at 139 WHP. Jim at Dynotune said there are ECUs that can get 150WHP. His words not mine.

Jason Hoover at AMG motorsports located now in Atlanta is the owner of the shop that supported this years winner. He has a wealth of information on these cars.

Also note, the MX5 for this series is not your 1990 Miata. I found a fender for my 1990 for $60.00, was looking for one for my MX5 found them
for around $300.00. There are not the availability
of parts either so you are forced to pay higher prices.

Mike Collins knows Miatas, I would not question what he feels would be the cost of building one. I see them at auction a 2006 for 9000.00. so thats a starting point.

My major concern trying to keep this car spec would be the ECU. The Pro ecu has a computer gateway that can be checked to see if it was messed with. If that can not be done on a regional
level, who knows then.

I run R-1s that are $220.00 each a little more than RA-1s.

Hope this helps.

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If they can check ECU as they say, why not in SM?
I dont believe they can. [Frown]

Pat

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B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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Pat, you can check ECUs on any car, the problem is building the reader for every different type of ECU that was offered for all years. But as noted many times before, the ECU can be fine, but other parts can be altered to affectively change the function of a stock ECU.

-b

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
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I guees if its that hard they should just open it up to open status, that way everyone can use the benefits of whatever they are doing and not just a few

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omg
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In the Pro series there is money on the line, and advancement in the Mazda racing group, that is why they could spend the time and money to figure out the ECU issue.

Mike C Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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SM5 is MORE SPEC than SM. At the moment we left the ECU rule out. We will be working with pro on how it works for them and how best to implement it. It is coming to the regional class. As soon as the cost can be covered to get ECU readers to each of the divisions.

The AWR cage is fine. In SM5 you can use any cage builder you want so long as the cage meets SCCA guidelines.

Most of the SM racers I know want to race in a SPEC class and SSB or STL or STU does not appeal to them. SM cars are starting to get old, many want a newer car in a SPEC class. SM5 like ALL NEW SCCA classes will start out regionally if and when it gets the numbers to be in the top 25 it may be considered for National status.

There may also be the possibility down the line if we get the numbers up quickly to allow an SM5 to compete in a pro MX-5 Cup race for a different entry fee and contingency pay out. The idea would be to get more local club racers out for a pro race at there local track. There would be a limit to how many times you could enter an SM5 car in a pro race but that is off in the future.

If you take the time to read the SM5 rules you will see spec exhaust, spec intake, sealed engine and the option of running the hard top.

Cost savings over a Cup car come from using any cage, no required data, spec suspension that cost less and has less adjustments. SM5 also has open tire.

I see SM5 as the next step for those wanting to advance from SM. 50 or 60 more HP, ABS, Power Steering and real race tires. All of this and the same GREAT support from MAZDA.

--------------------
Mike Collins
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Jim Creighton
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Not sure what Mike is saying about SM5 getting into the top 25 because here is what GCR says concerning becoming a National class.

9.1.12. NATIONAL CLASS PARTICIPATION REQUIREMENTS
A. A class retains its National status as long as its annual average
number of entries achieves 2.5 or higher per National event.
B. Should that annual average number of entries fall below 2.5, the
class will have one additional year to bring the participation level
above the current requirement. Alternatively, it may be immediately
consolidated into an existing class. If the class does not exceed the
current average requirement during the grace year, it will either be
consolidated into existing classes or become a Regional Class.
C. Based on member input, a Regional Class (except Improved Touring)
meeting or exceeding the participation requirements outlined in
paragraph 9.1.12.A. for 1 year may be reviewed to become a
National Class.

And as I read it, SM5 would have to have approx 600 entries Nationwide to make the 2.5 rule. I base this on 240 Regional Sanctioned events in 2010 times 2.5 per event. For comparison sake, SM has had 3165 entries in the 239 races to date in 2010.

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Jim Creighton
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim Creighton:
Not sure what Mike is saying about SM5 getting into the top 25 because here is what GCR says concerning becoming a National class.

9.1.12. NATIONAL CLASS PARTICIPATION REQUIREMENTS
A. A class retains its National status as long as its annual average
number of entries achieves 2.5 or higher per National event.
B. Should that annual average number of entries fall below 2.5, the
class will have one additional year to bring the participation level
above the current requirement. Alternatively, it may be immediately
consolidated into an existing class. If the class does not exceed the
current average requirement during the grace year, it will either be
consolidated into existing classes or become a Regional Class.
C. Based on member input, a Regional Class (except Improved Touring)
meeting or exceeding the participation requirements outlined in
paragraph 9.1.12.A. for 1 year may be reviewed to become a
National Class.

And as I read it, SM5 would have to have approx 600 entries Nationwide to make the 2.5 rule. I base this on 240 Regional Sanctioned events in 2010 times 2.5 per event. For comparison sake, SM has had 3165 entries in the 239 races to date in 2010.

This is what I meant. I think getting to 600 will be easy. I have orders for 6 now if the rules get approved.

--------------------
Mike Collins
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What's the durability of those race cars? I hear they break if you fart in their general direction...

--------------------
-Cy
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omg
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Until the ECU issue can be worked out it is a stretch to call this a Spec class. I am sure in time it will be handled as it was in the Pro series.

Concerning the hardtop, why would anyone run w/o one
when it is faster with one. Might as well make it mandatory. I would like to see it like the Pro series, why change it, it has worked for them for three years. I know the cages maybe more expensive.

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MX5s are not Miatas.
I really don't think you will ever see 600 cars.
Miatas are cheap and everywhere, not so with MX5s.
Aside from Mazdas support I don't see why this car and not a Honda S2000, BMW E36 or whatever.

--------------------
Jerry

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quote:
Originally posted by omg:
Until the ECU issue can be worked out it is a stretch to call this a Spec class. I am sure in time it will be handled as it was in the Pro series.

Concerning the hardtop, why would anyone run w/o one
when it is faster with one. Might as well make it mandatory. I would like to see it like the Pro series, why change it, it has worked for them for three years. I know the cages maybe more expensive.

we made the car as close to the pro car possible with concessions made for cost. The suspension, data tire are the only REAL differences. Allowing the use of an alternate cage will actually allow the hardtop to fit better.

If you they end up adopting the program you will be able to take the top off and race a pro race in your CLUB prepared car.

David, yes the ECU rule is coming. Writing the rule was not the problem. It was in the first draft. The problem is enforcement (at the moment). Until the bugs can be worked out of how to get the individual regions to do it or get a program in place like the cams where it can be sent in we need to go with the rules that we wrote which do not allow you to alter the ECU. Once testing begin we will either go with a standard flash that it the same as the Pro car or be able to test stock ECU's.

--------------------
Mike Collins
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quote:
Originally posted by NER88:
MX5s are not Miatas.
I really don't think you will ever see 600 cars.
Miatas are cheap and everywhere, not so with MX5s.
Aside from Mazdas support I don't see why this car and not a Honda S2000, BMW E36 or whatever.

MAZDASPEED is enough on its own to decide to do it with the MX5.

I have both cars, I raced an MX5 cup car for a season in regionals in STU, I loved the car hated the lack of competition. I think SM5 will attract a lot of good drivers.

--------------------
Mike Collins
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quote:
Originally posted by NER88:
Aside from Mazdas support I don't see why this car and not a Honda S2000, BMW E36 or whatever.

Because nobody had the interest enough to do it for one of those cars? BMWCCA has a Spec E36 class IIRC - and those cars are just as old as most Miata's - WITH huge rear suspension mounting issues.

Why the pushback Jerry? This is very similar to how SM started. Stabilize the rules Nationwide, allow it a spot regionally and watch it try and grow. If it doesn't it will die.

And if someone really wanted to, they could create a 'S2K' spec class with the help of HPD. Maybe I'll do it. The ITR car is just too nice.

--------------------
Andy Bettencourt
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PLEASE Approve the class, my 08 doner will be paid off in 4 years [Big Grin]

--------------------
Glenn
Crew chief Meathead Racing, NE Region Sales Division Race Engineering, The GOLD standard in SM engines, Occasional race slave for OPM Autosports

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Remember that reaching the participation numbers does not, necessarily, mean the class will ever go National.

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Concerning the ECU issue I need to make a correction, I refereed to a company that remapped the ECU for the Pro series as Dynotune, which was incorrect. My bad. The company is Dynotronics, Joe McClughan is the owner. He should be contacted concerning this issue, could solve it pretty quickly, with his help the Pro series did.

Concerning the hardtop I can not imagine a front runner running w/o a top, when it is proven to be faster.Nice to have an option for drivers like me that have a cup car and do not want to spend the money on a top.

Approve the class, see what happens, why not.

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Didn't SM start as a couple of guys with an idea? This will either work.. or it won't. If you don't want to run one, then don't. But with Mike having the folks ready to rock and roll there is interest, if it lasts great... if not, so what?

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All this has happened before, and will happen again

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Would the guys interested in this class prefer to restrict it to no hardtops? Since having a top would be an advantage, it would require that you buy one, to be competitive. I have no dog in this hunt, just asking if that would be preferable.
wheel

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I see that some of the cars offer a retractable hard top, is this the hard top that would be approved for the new class? Is this the only hard top that fits these cars or does the current 90 on up roof fit these cars or is there a top available from mazda for these cars? What will the hot year donor car be?

--------------------
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quote:
Originally posted by wheel:
Would the guys interested in this class prefer to restrict it to no hardtops? Since having a top would be an advantage, it would require that you buy one, to be competitive. I have no dog in this hunt, just asking if that would be preferable.
wheel

quote:
Originally posted by RON BURGUNDY:
I see that some of the cars offer a retractable hard top, is this the hard top that would be approved for the new class? Is this the only hard top that fits these cars or does the current 90 on up roof fit these cars or is there a top available from mazda for these cars? What will the hot year donor car be?

Mazda offers a hardtop just like the removable one we use in SM. The Retractable hardtop is not an option.

Wheel, WE WANT HARDTOPS. Not everyone wants to race in an open top car.

--------------------
Mike Collins
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omg
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If it is good enough for the Pros why not us? Would save on cost. I have checked it out the price for a OEM top $2295.00. Good luck finding one in a junk yard.Is my understanding that the hardtops now are only the power retractable. The pro series has raced w/o tops since inception. Man up.

By saying hardtops are optional, you are really saying they are mandatory.With all things being equal, the hardtop car will be faster, so why would any one with a chance to win run w/o one.

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quote:
Originally posted by Mike C:
...I see SM5 as the next step for those wanting to advance from SM. 50 or 60 more HP...real race tires....

Can "SM2" (99+) come play as well?! I know "SM0" wants an easy way to get rid of us [duck]

wheel Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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omg,
This is what prompted my question. And, mike, what is with the "WE" WANT HARDTOPS, do you have a mouse in your pocket?
wheel

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quote:
Originally posted by omg:
If it is good enough for the Pros why not us? Would save on cost. I have checked it out the price for a OEM top $2295.00. Good luck finding one in a junk yard.Is my understanding that the hardtops now are only the power retractable. The pro series has raced w/o tops since inception. Man up.

By saying hardtops are optional, you are really saying they are mandatory.With all things being equal, the hardtop car will be faster, so why would any one with a chance to win run w/o one.

The MAZDASPEED price for a hardtop on a racecar is VERY competitive. Not what you posted.

I have man'd up plenty in my life. I choose to race a car with a top.

Feel free to go race your car with the Pro's that's what its set up for. I am building a club version and it includes a top.

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quote:
Originally posted by wheel:
omg,
This is what prompted my question. And, mike, what is with the "WE" WANT HARDTOPS, do you have a mouse in your pocket?
wheel

Orders for 6 cars, that's the "WE". Those six cars by themselves will make our class more popular than many of the classes that are still allowed to race at the runoffs!

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Jason H
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You could be build a SM for less than an MX5, but that SM will never under any circumstance be competitive as a front running car. You can build a competive MX5 for less than a front running SM though. I've spent way to much time and money to win races and a National championship in SM. Buying multilpe motors, switching heads, the newest and latest this or that. What a joke. I much rather race an MX5. This is a real spec car, it is easier to work on and repair, faster than a '99 without a restrictor. There is NO reliablity issues with this car. Agian, no reliablility issues with this car. There is a good reason we have and will continue to race this car at the Nasa 25. PCM's are not an issue. If you want a spec class? Then you need a Sealed PCM. The solution is to have all PCM's tuned and locked. They can't be f##ked with after that. If you tired of the $7,000 dollar motors and the continuous dyno time to find one or two horsepower. This is more along the lines of what your looking for.

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Jason nice to hear from someone who has been there, and had multiple podiums in MX5. In a previous post on this subject I wrote that you would have a wealth of info on this subject. Thanks for your input.

Mike I have no doubt you have manned up before, it was said in jest.

Peace,

David

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So how much for a turn-key MX5? - because frankly when the $$$ get to a certain level, racing a GTA (or even a SRF) starts to look very attractive.

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My guess mid-upper 20s

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Concerning the PCM issue. I spoke to Jim Jess Tech manager for SCCA Pro MX5 series concerning the issues they had with PCM changes. When it came to light that some drivers had remapped their PCM, they contacted Jim M. at http://www.dptune.com and he remapped the stock PCM and "locked it down" According to Jim Jess once the PCM is locked it is locked. The cost to the driver was $600.00 but Mazda covered the additional cost over that. So I do not know the true cost of the remap and lock down.

I suggest that we contact Jim at DPtune, and see what he would charge to remap the stock PCM in the same way that he did the Pro series.I know he did give it more HP. Now that the remapping has been done maybe the price would not be as great.

We might as well close this loop hole in the beginning, because we all know that it will be the first place the racers will go who are less than honest.

My last word on the hardtop, the reason that the Pro series runs w/o them is that Mazda said that they are in the business of selling roadsters, so no tops.

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quote:
Originally posted by NER88:
MX5s are not Miatas.
I really don't think you will ever see 600 cars.
Miatas are cheap and everywhere, not so with MX5s.
Aside from Mazdas support I don't see why this car and not a Honda S2000, BMW E36 or whatever.

I love my S2000 but it has the 1.6 1.8 problem 2.0L for the frist years and then 2.2L

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William Keeling a.k.a. Willie the Tard

   

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