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Author Topic: Nov Fastrack is out
Nigel Stu Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by T.J. Kearney:


Take responsibility upon yourself to either:
a) run your car in a class (ITA,ITS, etc) that doesn't care what tire you're on. Or:
b) DQ yourself after the race


point taken and understood, but you forgot option c)
get your division/region to adopt a Spec Miata Open Tire class.

I should have quoted that portion of my original post.

The main point I'm trying to get at is if you still have RA-1s, you can still run the car and have fun with it. which is why we race. to have fun. I'd rather run as SMT than ITA because of the closer parity, but there are options for anyone with RA-1s left to still go out and have fun without "wasting" (this term will likely mean something different to many people) money by replacing usable tires with new R888.

--------------------
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soupy
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But if the 888 is spec'd for regions you will not be able to grandfather them.
Does anybody know if they tested these tires in 40 degree weather or in the rain?

--------------------
Charlie Campbell
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NV Racer Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by soupy:
But if the 888 is spec'd for regions you will not be able to grandfather them.
Does anybody know if they tested these tires in 40 degree weather or in the rain?

In SF Region we run as SMT not SM. That may give us a option to grandfather RA-1's. I really do not see National getting their feathers ruffled over grandfathering for a few events.

Dennis

Sean Yepez Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by NV Racer:
quote:
Originally posted by soupy:
But if the 888 is spec'd for regions you will not be able to grandfather them.
Does anybody know if they tested these tires in 40 degree weather or in the rain?

In SF Region we run as SMT not SM. That may give us a option to grandfather RA-1's. I really do not see National getting their feathers ruffled over grandfathering for a few events.

Dennis

Exactly. We don't run SM here. We run SMT. [Big Grin]

If Kim Willcox had his way, we'd be running SMH. [Wink]

--------------------
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soupy
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Doesn't matter what you call it, it's still regional racing with a sanction number. And the BOD is going to take away the rights of a region to do what they want when it comes to the supps.

--------------------
Charlie Campbell
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Derek Luney Verified Driver
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Sorry but I think you are wrong there. SM is a national class. When run at the regional level these rules mandate R888 but... SMT, SSM and ASM for example are region only classes based on SM. They can spec whatever tire they want.

Now, what I don't know is, does National have the power to (and if so the inclination) to withhold a sanction number from an event if you try to run a regional only class it doesn't want. I suspect that since Mike Collins was a driving force behind this rule and that his region has arguably the most successful SM derivative class (SSM) they would not interfere in that manor.

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quote:
Originally posted by soupy:
Doesn't matter what you call it, it's still regional racing with a sanction number. And the BOD is going to take away the rights of a region to do what they want when it comes to the supps.

Highly doubtful. My mailbox is already filling up with racers from GLDiv that want some form of open tires. As GLDiv champ series chairman I might be able to make something happen----IF IF IF I get enough demand. Those that want something with open tire need to move quickly as I need to submit rules on Nov. 1 to our committee. Anybody is welcome to comment although ultimately its up to GLDiV drivers. Remember R888's would still be ok in this open tire class. Kind of like when we had SMT a few years ago to go along with SM...you know the heyday of the class when we all got along.......

db

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I'm all for open tires in 2009 for GLDiv. I still have tires which I'd like to use up !!

While I understand why they want everyone on the same tire, I was only expecting the change to be for Nationals not for Regionals. Frankly, I feel that they blindsided us. No one was talking about going spec in Regionals until after the decision to ram the R888 down our throughts for Nationals.

If they want to make this change for Regionals, they should do it for 2010 to allow people to use up tires that they have already bought. With the economy in the toilet, they should realize that a lot of us haven't been able to race as much and as such, our tires aren't on the track to wear out !!

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quote:
Originally posted by Derek Luney:
Sorry but I think you are wrong there. SM is a national class. When run at the regional level these rules mandate R888 but... SMT, SSM and ASM for example are region only classes based on SM. They can spec whatever tire they want.

Now, what I don't know is, does National have the power to (and if so the inclination) to withhold a sanction number from an event if you try to run a regional only class it doesn't want. I suspect that since Mike Collins was a driving force behind this rule and that his region has arguably the most successful SM derivative class (SSM) they would not interfere in that manor.

IF and only IF the BoD approves this, SM Nationally and Regionally in the entire country will run the R888.

What this means to you:

1) SM is a National GCR class. YOU HAVE TO RUN IT AT EVERY EVENT (except on those special occasion where a ONE TIME sanction may be given for an endurance race or an open wheel only event).

2) You can run a regional derivative (SSM, ASM, SMT) in addition to SM but not instead of SM.

3) You can load your SM onto your trailer and show up at any event, regional or national and not have to worry about what the local tire rule.

--------------------
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This is the decision that our RE announced regarding the R888 in the SF region.

quote:
Regarding the tire change over time: We've received input from drivers
asking that they be allowed to use up their existing stock of RA1s. While it
would be easiest to just do a January 1, 2009 change over date, we want to support the cost-effective spirit of the Spec Miata class. With that in mind we have decided to allow both the RA1 and R888 to be used in Regional races through May 31, 2009. That will allow enough races to use up whatever is in the pipe line.

Personally I will have a set of R888's and run both RA-1 and R888. I do not want to buy multiple sets to start off the season.

Dennis

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Dennis,

As Mike pointed out in the post above SFR SCCA can't do that and if you run RA-1's in an SCCA SM event you will not be legal and would lose if protested... perhaps not locally but most certainly on appeal to Topeka.

If the rules say SM regionally runs R888 you can't change that in the supps, it's simply not an option. Imagine spec'ing a Turbo kit locally and having Mike drag his car across the country only to find he is the only normally aspirated SM in the field. SM is a national class and has a set of rules that apply in all SCCA events. Last year those rules included an option for regions to spec a tire or leave it open in Regional races but as of 1/1/09 that goes away.

If you want to run your SM with RA-1's in SCCA after 1/1/09 you can either do so illegally in SM, run in ITA or have your region run an SM derivative class (SF-SM?) that allows RA-1s as well as SM. One benefit of this final approach is that the $10 SM compliance fee goes away for SFSM.

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Derek, the compliance fee stays if tires is the only difference. That is they ruled on it all year. The rule set (like SSM) has to be enough different that the compliance fee does not apply.

It may be possible for a region to temporarily allow the RA-1 in the supps???? The BoD may also pork barrel the rule with a sunset clause???

MEAT

--------------------
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quote:
Originally posted by soupy:
Doesn't matter what you call it, it's still regional racing with a sanction number. And the BOD is going to take away the rights of a region to do what they want when it comes to the supps.

that is not how I understand it. There is some wiggle room with the supps. But I'm lookmg into it.

--------------------
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Qik Nip Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by D.B. Cutler:
I was only expecting the change to be for Nationals not for Regionals. Frankly, I feel that they blindsided us.

If they want to make this change for Regionals, they should do it for 2010 to allow people to use up tires that they have already bought.

Amen Dan. Great Lakes needs to take a firm stand to allow (Regional) SM to run either the RA1 or the 888 during 2009!!!
Rick

--------------------
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quote:
Originally posted by NV Racer:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by soupy:
[qb]
Does anybody know if they tested these tires in 40 degree weather or in the rain?

Take a look at the 888 tread. Only half of the grooves are molded to the edge of the tire and there is no circumferential groove to connect the V shaped tread. The water has practically no place to go.

I ran a one cycle 4/32" set of 888's in the rain in August (in a PTE NASA race)and they were less effective than a ten cycle 4/32 set of RA1's. We need to press for an open rain tire rule in 2009.
Rick

--------------------
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NV Racer Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Derek Luney:
Dennis,

As Mike pointed out in the post above SFR SCCA can't do that and if you run RA-1's in an SCCA SM event you will not be legal and would lose if protested... perhaps not locally but most certainly on appeal to Topeka.

Do you really think with the economy as it is that this will be forced upon a regional. As far as someone from outside the region coming in for a race it makes no difference the R888 is allowed. Only those running for points within the region should be concerned. If it turns out that the R888's are faster than the point becomes moot. If not those running for points will make my RA-1's more valuable.

Dennis

Ara Verified Driver Series Champ
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Guys, please... be careful what you ask for from the SCCA and NASA. You say open tire and the front runners are going to show up with the latest and greatest tire that comes along and start a tire war. Totally not what you are looking for, if I am interpreting your intent correctly.

If the RA1 is faster, the front runners are going to run it until it is illegal, forcing anyone else running up front trying to win to run the faster tire too. It WILL end up costing everyone more.

This is definitely the case of the vocal few trying to screw up the majority. The OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of SM drivers want a spec tire. Here are the results of the tire poll we had last year:

Tire Poll Results

Ara

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If someone is that hard up for a win that they need to show up at a freaken regional with the latest and geatest development in tires to do it, be my guest. They have WAY more personal probelms than I'm prepared to deal with.

I have one set of Hoosier SM6 tires and one set of RA1 rains that I'm going to use at SCCA regionals no matter what. If someone really feels that they need to protest me to finish 9th instead of 10th, well then, you can be my guest for that as well.

My other six tires will be R888s as will the rest of the tires that I buy until the SCCA changes them.

Todd Lamb Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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What Ara said. We need this spec tire rule to be across the board, with a firm cutoff.

AND right now it seems, unless I am not understanding the rules correctly, that the rain tire has NOT been addressed by this rule change.

Thus for NASA I need:
1 set of full depth R888 rains
1 set of 5/32 R888 intermediates

And for SCCA I need:
1 set of Hoosier rains
1 set of 5/32 RA-1 intermediates

That's only 4 sets of rain tires, and 4 sets of rims. No big deal, right?

By the way, I have a 48mm restrictor plate laying around that hasn't worn out yet - is it OK for me to run it until it does?

--------------------
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o. Tires -

All cars shall use Toyo R888 (205/50R15).

Looks pretty clear to me. The R888 is the tire, wet or dry...

--------------------
----------------
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Casey Z - 1.6 Kettle
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Todd you can try to throw all those tire in the trunk and the back for the extra weight your going to need. [Big Grin]

Pat Slattery

--------------------
keeping the faith for the 1.6

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D.B. Cutler Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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If the R888 is the rain tire for both sanctioning bodies and if they are as bad in the rain as some guys are saying that they are, would it be legal to add extra sipes to the tire with a tire grooving iron to help evacuate the water ? I don't think it's covered in the rules right now and it probably should be.

D.B. Cutler Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Todd Lamb:

By the way, I have a 48mm restrictor plate laying around that hasn't worn out yet - is it OK for me to run it until it does?

I'm not sure. Do they wear out on an angle from front to back like some cylinder heads I've hear about ?

[ 10-24-2008, 09:35 AM: Message edited by: D.B. Cutler ]

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Just turn the cylinder head around every couple races so it wears evenly.

--------------------
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quote:
Originally posted by D.B. Cutler:
If the R888 is the rain tire for both sanctioning bodies and if they are as bad in the rain as some guys are saying that they are, would it be legal to add extra sipes to the tire with a tire grooving iron to help evacuate the water ? I don't think it's covered in the rules right now and it probably should be.

I've heard they are better in the rain... [Confused] [scratchchin]

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quote:
Originally posted by Todd Lamb:
Just turn the cylinder head around every couple races so it wears evenly.

Great comeback !!

B(Kuch) Kucera 45 Verified Driver
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I'm not complaining about having a spec tire,but wouldn't a open tire rule be cheaper for everybody?

The reason I say that is,if the tire is open it would have the tire company's fighting to sell there tires over the next guy.This would lower the tire prices and might get a few guy's tire sponsorship.This system works great for the bikes and would help the guy's that can't afford the high dollar tire's.

When you have to run one tire and one tire only they can set the tire prices to what ever they want and we are stuck paying that price.When you have more then one tire company they will lower there prices to sell more tire's.

So why would open be bad?

If this was such a spec class they would have one engine builder and it would be sealed.They would have one exhaust,one intake,along with one kind of tire.So the way I look at it is,it's not that spec of a class!

If it was,what makes a car worth $15K to $35K in a spec class?

I don't have half of that in my car and I seem to be doing OK!

--------------------
Bob
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quote:
Originally posted by B(Kuch) Kucera 45:
I'm not complaining about having a spec tire,but wouldn't a open tire rule be cheaper for everybody?


Not sure about everybody... but it certainly would be cheaper for me [Big Grin] Right up until "my" tire company wasn't the fasest tire...
Spec is best for the class
Jim

--------------------
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quote:

The reason I say that is,if the tire is open it would have the tire company's fighting to sell there tires over the next guy.This would lower the tire prices and might get a few guy's tire sponsorship.This system works great for the bikes and would help the guy's that can't afford the high dollar tire's.

CAPITALISM... It'll never work.

We're living in a dictatorship: a self-perpetuating autocracy in which the working classes--
Dennis, There's some lovely filth down here!

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quote:
Originally posted by Derek Luney:
CAPITALISM... It'll never work.

Of course it will! Exhibit A, Wall Street investment banks. Wait, is this my 401K statement? WTF? Maybe not so much... [Frown] [Eek!]

--------------------
----------------
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Casey Z - 1.6 Kettle
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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
quote:
Originally posted by B(Kuch) Kucera 45:
I'm not complaining about having a spec tire,but wouldn't a open tire rule be cheaper for everybody?


Not sure about everybody... but it certainly would be cheaper for me [Big Grin] Right up until "my" tire company wasn't the fasest tire...
Spec is best for the class
Jim

Jim,just think you could have 4 tire sponsor's and have a diff.tire on each corner of your car!
Just think of all the stickers you would have on your car.Just when you thought you ran out of sponsorship space you could sell the winshield space to Fig Newtons! [Wink] [Big Grin]

--------------------
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quote:
Originally posted by Sean Allen:
quote:
Originally posted by D.B. Cutler:
If the R888 is the rain tire for both sanctioning bodies and if they are as bad in the rain as some guys are saying that they are, would it be legal to add extra sipes to the tire with a tire grooving iron to help evacuate the water ? I don't think it's covered in the rules right now and it probably should be.

I've heard they are better in the rain... [Confused] [scratchchin]
I went back and looked at the rain data form tire test.. assuming the drivers were equal, which I don't at that track. The 99 was faster on R888 and the 1.6 was slightly faster on the RA1.
If I take that info and say that the two guys with by far the most laps there were on r888 and therefore logic may suggest they should be faster... My opinion is RA1 is slightly better wet tire
Jim

--------------------
Jim Drago
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We ran 2 cars at Road America in the rain with R888. Yes, they where illegal, but we did it anyways.

Both drivers felt that the UNSHAVEN tire was more than adiquet in the rain. And it was RAIn not drissel

Here in Cendiv we have SMT which allows RA1, Hankook, Kumho and Hoosier. We have a gentlemans agreement that no front runner uses the Hoosier. This keeps the set-up the same between SM and SMT and keeps the cost down. In 4 years I think only one fast driver has shown up with Hoosiers. He felt bad and did not run the Hoosiers again.

Let's face it, unless you are running up front and running for points, nobody is going to care what tires you are using.

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One other reason why I like one spec tire for SM everywhere. I can talk to anyone in the field about car handling. There are many fast racers in this class who are willing to share basic set up information that many of the newer racers don't know.

We are already hearing that the R888 may need different camber settings. Add Hoosiers, Kumos, etc. to the mix and the handling advice becomes, "well, that depends... what tires are you on?" It will take me all summer to do enough testing to learn what my car will like on a new tire. By the time I am able to start my 2009 season in June, I can think of 4 fast racers who are likely to share some of the basic things they have learned in their testing from April & May.

I love this class!

38BFAST Verified Driver
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No more tips for you. Your getting too fast. [Razz]

--------------------
Ralph Provitz
#38
2008 WHRRI SM Champion
2008 WHRRI Top 10 Overall
V2 Motorsports, Race support, Data Dude

Motor City Hamilton
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Ralph. Information goes both ways. For the poeple who don't tend to run into me alot on the track, I will share what has worked for me. I like the competition. I think the closer we can keep the field at Waterford Hills, the longer people will stay with our class.

For that handful of racers that we all talk about causing 90% of the metal-to-metal issues, they are on their own.

soupy
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I think you're missing something. The problem with
the handfull of racers you are talking about, I doubt it has anything to do with the tire brand.

--------------------
Charlie Campbell
Race Engineering
carbotech brakes

Motor City Hamilton
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quote:
Originally posted by soupy:
I think you're missing something. The problem with
the handfull of racers you are talking about, I doubt it has anything to do with the tire brand.

Right. [Confused] I don't understand your question. I didn't make any reference between people who beat and bang and the tires they are on. Just that those racers will get zero advice from me... ever!

Scottie
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hey guys, I know this isnt tire related, but it is related to the new rules. Im currently buidling my 93 miata and will be doing suspension soon. Do I need the 99 shock hats and bumpstop stuff? or is it just recommended

--------------------
How do I fit this ls7 into my mia... nevermind.

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quote:
Originally posted by Scottie:
hey guys, I know this isnt tire related, but it is related to the new rules. Im currently buidling my 93 miata and will be doing suspension soon. Do I need the 99 shock hats and bumpstop stuff? or is it just recommended

You need it no question.

--------------------
----------------
Z Brothers Racing / East Street Auto

Casey Z - 1.6 Kettle
MidDiv National #13

cam Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Casey Z:
quote:
Originally posted by Scottie:
hey guys, I know this isnt tire related, but it is related to the new rules. Im currently buidling my 93 miata and will be doing suspension soon. Do I need the 99 shock hats and bumpstop stuff? or is it just recommended

You need it no question.
This is worth a clarification; you are not required to upgrade to the 99 style shock hats per the rules, rather, it is an option. There are handling benefits to going with the 99 shock hat style and some highly recommend it but it is not needed. If you are on a super tight budget and buying shock hats is going to keep out off the track or from buying a HANS type of safety equipment, then you can always upgrade later. If you can afford the small increase in build price, then it would be wise to upgrade upfront. Hope this helps.

--------------------
"The problem with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
~Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have."
~Thomas Jefferson

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Do you have to use the 99 hats? No. Should you? Yes. But I would wait until the BOD's rule on the Fatcat setup.

On the Tire subject I spoke to our RE this last weekend at the season Finale. He said the R888 change to regional is non consequential to his decision to allow RA-1's until May 31, 2009. He feels that since we run "SMT" in the region the rules are up to the region. As for as my situation I picked up 1.5+ seconds at Thunderhill with the new pavement and promptly corded my last good set of RA-1's so It will be all R888's for me next season.

Dennis

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thanks alot guys! much appreciated!

--------------------
How do I fit this ls7 into my mia... nevermind.

Danny Steyn Verified Driver
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I know this is a real NOOBIE question, and I should know where to look, but I can't find it, so I will ask it anyhow....

For the SEDIV ECR series (enduro), where is the tire spec'd, and is the Hoosier rain tire allowed?

Several of us were surprised to see it show up at VIR this past weekend where it really was unbeatable in the pouring rain.

--------------------
Danny
http://www.dannysteyn.com
http://www.adeptstudios.com
OPM Autosports | Traqmate | Rossini Racing Engines
2010 June Sprints Champ, 2010 ARRC SMX Champ
2009 SARRC Champ, 2009 SEDiv ECR Champ, 2009 FES Champ
2008 SEDiv ECR Champ

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Danny,

The "spec-ing" of tires for the SEDIV races is done in an unusual way. The SEDIV RE's vote on a rule package for all regional classes or rules that require regional input at the SEDIV annual meeting. Those rules are posted on the sedivracing.org web site. These rules are then incorporated into individual regions supps by reference to the SEDIV rule set in the supps. Also SARRC and ECR rules (I haven't read the ECR rules recently but they used to be this way) specifically state that the series are run under the SEDIV rules.

The SEDIV rule for 2008 is that the spec tire is the same as the National tire BUT rain tire is OPEN. So the Hoosier rain is legal for SEDIV regional racing until the 1/1/09 Regional=National rule comes into play.

The question that people really should be asking in the SEDIV is what the legal (dry) tire will be at the Turkey Trot!! The answer is the R888 and the RA-1 will be illegal. That is unless the Supps don't include the SEDIV rule.

Hopefully you are totally confused....

--------------------
Gary Jenkins
SEDIV Spec Miata Advisory Committe
AOL IM:PBLRacing

Danny Steyn Verified Driver
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Gary
many thanks - that helps........to confuse!!LOL
much appreciated

--------------------
Danny
http://www.dannysteyn.com
http://www.adeptstudios.com
OPM Autosports | Traqmate | Rossini Racing Engines
2010 June Sprints Champ, 2010 ARRC SMX Champ
2009 SARRC Champ, 2009 SEDiv ECR Champ, 2009 FES Champ
2008 SEDiv ECR Champ

Danny Steyn Verified Driver
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OK so did I miss something...
What was/is the national rain tire spec for SM 2008? And now for 2009?

--------------------
Danny
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http://www.adeptstudios.com
OPM Autosports | Traqmate | Rossini Racing Engines
2010 June Sprints Champ, 2010 ARRC SMX Champ
2009 SARRC Champ, 2009 SEDiv ECR Champ, 2009 FES Champ
2008 SEDiv ECR Champ

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That one is much easier Danny. [Smile]

There is only one tire legal for use in rain or dry in National SM racing. 2008 = RA-1, 2009 = R888.

--------------------
Gary Jenkins
SEDIV Spec Miata Advisory Committe
AOL IM:PBLRacing

Danny Steyn Verified Driver
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Gary
thanks for the info - much appreciated

--------------------
Danny
http://www.dannysteyn.com
http://www.adeptstudios.com
OPM Autosports | Traqmate | Rossini Racing Engines
2010 June Sprints Champ, 2010 ARRC SMX Champ
2009 SARRC Champ, 2009 SEDiv ECR Champ, 2009 FES Champ
2008 SEDiv ECR Champ

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FWIW, here's my half- [butthead] opinion. I used a set of un-shaved R888s in the rain at VIR this past weekend and they weren't bad, probably not equivalent to a Hoosier (I never raced on Hoosier rains), but every bit as good, maybe better than the RA1. -Denny

 
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