Region: SouthEast
Car #: 28
Year : 95 Posts: 3756
Status: Offline
posted
Interested in hearing what you think about this? Would anyone be interested in a short-term fee per race in order to build up tools and training for NASA SSM (or SCCA for that matter) much like the SM compliance fee?
Lemme know
-------------------- Jason Holland Semi-interested civilian
If you're going to maintain competitiveness with SCCA SM, then you must be able to operate on a level playing field with regard to tech. Where the $ comes from is up to you all, but you have to do it. Personally, I'm more of a user-fee guy than a tax guy so I voted yes.
Region: SouthEast
Car #: 28
Year : 95 Posts: 3756
Status: Offline
posted
Anyone care to detail their feelings here? Why the reluctance? Just fee fatigue?
Leaving it up to the organizers in most cases has been shown NOT to work. With a compliance fee we can take matters into our own hands, have tools on hand to check cars, bring dynos to the track etc. What about this isn't good?
-------------------- Jason Holland Semi-interested civilian
Region: Central Florida
Car #: 3
Year : 1992 Posts: 1304
Status: Offline
posted
NASA's motto is "racers make the decisions" so the people who race in SSM in NASA need to step up and talk this out.
My personal opinion is that you have to have strict compliance and good tech or your class won't survive. The real issue is how you accomplish that objective.
Region: WDC
Car #: 11
Year : 91 Posts: 314
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by Gatoratty: NASA's motto is "racers make the decisions" so the people who race in SSM in NASA need to step up and talk this out.
My personal opinion is that you have to have strict compliance and good tech or your class won't survive. The real issue is how you accomplish that objective.
Bingo! But add to that a ruleset that absolutely limits pricey modifications.
-------------------- Jim Thill #11 SSM #3 ITA Thrillz Racing
Region: SoCal
Car #: 13
Year : 1992 Posts: 847
Status: Offline
posted
In SoCal I'm the only SSM so I'm not for it until we average have 5+ cars an event over a season.
My issue is to convert cars... I've talked with most SoCal 1.6's attempting educate them that SSM is the way to go but I only get push back. They want to "run with the pack" and I WAS too slow to show a full trim SSM could, in their words "keep up" with a SM.
However, after a week in Utah trying to keep up with Jason I finally learned how to drive these silly chick cars (well kinda). While attending BWRP last month (I only had one session before I broke my arm/wrist) in the SM/SSM warm-up session I posted a 2:08.705 which was good for 12th out of 22 cars. So there !
Sorry for the hijack but there is no need in SoCal for a compliance fee yet.
-------------------- Thanks, John Mueller NASA SM National Director http://www.Weekend-Racer.com #13 "Tiger Miata" - 2009 SoCal SSM Champion
Region: SouthEast
Car #: 28
Year : 95 Posts: 3756
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by Connie 62:
quote:Originally posted by Gatoratty: NASA's motto is "racers make the decisions" so the people who race in SSM in NASA need to step up and talk this out.
My personal opinion is that you have to have strict compliance and good tech or your class won't survive. The real issue is how you accomplish that objective.
Bingo! But add to that a ruleset that absolutely limits pricey modifications.
I agree completely. Like $3000 motors. Completely unnecessary!
-------------------- Jason Holland Semi-interested civilian
Region: Washington DC
Car #: 07
Year : 1991 Posts: 41
Status: Offline
posted
In Wash. DC (SCCA), where we can fill a track with 25-40 SSM cars, a compliance fee was brought up as part of our rules discussion, and is, I believe, still on the table. (soeaking of which, might be time to resurrect that thread.)
It has some support and some resistance. Support in principle is easy; sure we should pay to educate and equip tech to keep the class legal, provided there is transparency, as Rob brought up earlier.
I think the resistance is on the more practical level though. With a field as large as ours, it is understood that we are in fact an entry level class and a lot of folks are scraping change out from the sofa cushions to make any given race weekend. So, there is a certain amount of "Cripes, what do you want more money for now?" sentiment. And indeed, the rationale is a little more annoying for those of us who need binoculars to look waaaay up the grid to spot the folks who will be tested and scrutinized for compliance in the first place.
Region: WDCR,
Car #: 38
Year : 1991 Posts: 841
Status: Offline
posted
I think the compliance fee for tools and equipment is unneeded I believe that the sanctioning body should supply their tech with some of the tools needed to check compliance from all the entry fees for all the classes period. Then those tools could be used also by the class reps or administrators to do some checking via lottery
Now should you still want the fee, it could go towards the gaskets, seals, swap parts, dyno time
SSM has been called Showroom Spec Miata for years in the NorthEast and 2 years ago the DC Region started a voluntary engine sealing program that consisted of sealing the valve cover and tuning to a specified HP via the AFM and sealing that with Seal tape.(this works with the 1.6 no action has been taken with the 1.8 that is allowed to run, just overweight)
1) Anyone could volunteer to seal, it started with many of the front runners then to drivers throughout the field 2) the seal program had brought the cars into a window of HP 3) Is this perfect? NO but this started progress and kept the engine wars to a budget.
Now we have as happens in racing people recognizing the holes in the system how it can be gamed so what to do?
If we went with "Sealed" Spec Miata in order to make it work better we would have to seal more items such as 1) t-body 2) intake to head 3) exhaust Manifold to head 4) Manifold to down Pipe 5) Down Pipe to Comp Exhaust 6) ECU All the above is simple to do
7) now the engine- it could be built (gamed) to make certain levels of torque or HP at a specified RPM Blah Blah Blah...before it is sealed but...if we can we get Mazda involved to Supply a sealed crate that has the head shaved and the assembly deburred and checked over? at a reasonable cost? sure you could buy and dyno a bunch of engines to get the cherry but if the AFM was setting the MAX then the benifits would be small.
-------------------- 2011 Season schedule coming soon Support, sales, repair or rental windsorcustoms.com
JIM DANIELS
Guest
Status: Offline
posted
quote:If we went with "Sealed" Spec Miata in order to make it work better we would have to seal more items such as 1) t-body 2) intake to head 3) exhaust Manifold to head 4) Manifold to down Pipe 5) Down Pipe to Comp Exhaust 6) ECU All the above is simple to do
7) now the engine- it could be built (gamed) to make certain levels of torque or HP at a specified RPM Blah Blah Blah...before it is sealed but...if we can we get Mazda involved to Supply a sealed crate that has the head shaved and the assembly deburred and checked over? at a reasonable cost? sure you could buy and dyno a bunch of engines to get the cherry but if the AFM was setting the MAX then the benifits would be small.
If you guys just added those items and used the crate motor pre-sealed approach, would be a greatly enhanced "spec" spec class.
Region: Washington DC
Car #: 07
Year : 1991 Posts: 41
Status: Offline
posted
Well, the only problem with that becomes: What is "reasonable"? I refer you to those of us in what Chris likes to call "working man's land," scraping change out of the sofa cushions, etc. My "reasonable" is a $250 engine out of a woodshed, found on Craigslist, and rebuilt in my garage. See above for an original 180k motor and there's more where ours came from. I'm not sure how consistent it is with the low cost, entry level intent of the class to insist on a professionally built engine.
Region: South Jersey
Year : 91 Posts: 121
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by JIM DANIELS:
quote:If we went with "Sealed" Spec Miata in order to make it work better we would have to seal more items such as 1) t-body 2) intake to head 3) exhaust Manifold to head 4) Manifold to down Pipe 5) Down Pipe to Comp Exhaust 6) ECU All the above is simple to do
7) now the engine- it could be built (gamed) to make certain levels of torque or HP at a specified RPM Blah Blah Blah...before it is sealed but...if we can we get Mazda involved to Supply a sealed crate that has the head shaved and the assembly deburred and checked over? at a reasonable cost? sure you could buy and dyno a bunch of engines to get the cherry but if the AFM was setting the MAX then the benifits would be small.
If you guys just added those items and used the crate motor pre-sealed approach, would be a greatly enhanced "spec" spec class.
Why don't we all buy MX-5 cup cars, or better yet, 911 GT3 Cup cars?
Pete Maerz (rooting through the couch for next year's racing budget).
Region: WDCR
Car #: 56 "Earl"
Year : 1990, 1999 soon to be SM Posts: 2947
Status: Offline
posted
quote:Originally posted by John Mueller: ....after a week in Utah trying to keep up with Jason I finally learned how to drive these silly chick cars (well kinda)...
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