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Author Topic: Risky move on the start? Opinions.
Buelligan Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I moved this from another post. I was just curious how others feel. Do I have a point or am I just over reacting? I'm not upset that I lost three positions (which did suck but oh well) I am concerned because I have seen this person make several other aggressive and risky moves. Do we point them out or leave it alone? Again, this is posted, not in anger but concern.


Here is my video from the start of Sunday's race. I wonder if anyone else thinks this was a bad move that could have been very ugly! We have seen some bad starts and I think this is an aggressive move at the green flag that could have been yet another bad start. I can understand wanting the inside of turn one, but at the risk of damaging many cars? The car in front of him is a length or two down track when he PUSHES his way into the right lane! He pushes Jim Thill into the grass and we all have to check up!

I may be way off base here and if you feel I am, please let me know . I will always lose spots on the start as long as people are willing to take a risk like this because, I NEVER WILL!


start of race from car 05

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Mike Monaghan
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Michael53
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Not being familiar with your track it's like comparing apples to oranges; but that seemed like a very mild start for what I'm used to. He didn't seem to dive over; he had a nice hole and pulled over pretty slowly. How narrow is that straight? I'm used to people break'n three wide when the flag drops but we may have an extra 3 or 4 feet of asphalt to play with.

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Thanks for replying. We have room for three wide, but at Summit Point we have had a few bad starts. You are right it was a very mild start and clean race over all (no yellows the entire race!)I guess I'm trying to be pro-active. Three wide is fine but pushing someone in the grass is not. Fill a hole but don't force someone out in the grass to do it in a field of 40 cars at the start! I don't see a nice hole, I see him almost put a fender into someone who had to check up and go in the grass to avoid being hit. Again my opinion and why I asked. Thanks for your insight.

--------------------
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It did seem to be a very slow move IMHO, I am unable to see really what he might be reacting to ahead of him but it all seemed to be pretty fair for a start at SP. Thill did a nice job of reacting and avoiding any contact but when you run along the edge of the track on the start you leave yourself very few options as to places to go and the red car was in front. I do have to say that it is unrealistic for you to ask folks to stay in their lanes in your video, that is just not going to happen in this type of racing, it is not a NASCAR restart.

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Thanks Chris that's what I am looking for I guess. I still would have to disagree though. Yes it was a slow move but he still FORCED Jim into the grass! Yes he was ahead of Jim but did not leave racing room. He moved over and left Jim no choice but to check up or go in the grass! The "stay in your lane" was a bit much in the video but was more a suggestion. I would never have thought to push someone into the grass at the start. This is why I asked. I guess I'll leave it alone and go back to mid pack! LOL I am way too cautious to run with the pointy end. Again thanks for the input. I do appreciate it.


Here is the race edited to 20 minutes

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Mike Monaghan
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Looking at that as a start I really don't see an issue. He moved over into a gap and while the car in front of you had to breathe of the throttle I did not see anything I would call over aggressive. Heck if all our starts went that smoothly around here I know there would be smiles galore. Heck my car would appreciate not getting more donuts.

db

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Nothing wrong with what he did. Thill car in front of you had plenty of time to react. All Thill had to do was lift a bit. After all, the car that moved to the right was in the row in front of him, so he was responsible for avoiding contact.

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After you pass a waving green there are no "lanes to stay in".

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quote:
Originally posted by wheel:
Nothing wrong with what he did. Thill car in front of you had plenty of time to react. All Thill had to do was lift a bit. After all, the car that moved to the right was in the row in front of him, so he was responsible for avoiding contact.

Admittedly, this is really picky, but was this a NASA event or SCCA?

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quote:
Originally posted by wheel:
Nothing wrong with what he did. Thill car in front of you had plenty of time to react. All Thill had to do was lift a bit. After all, the car that moved to the right was in the row in front of him, so he was responsible for avoiding contact.

Both cars are responsible for leaving "racing room" for each other.

6.11.1 On Course Driver Conduct
A. Drivers are responsible to avoid physical contact between cars on
the race track.
B. Each competitor has a right to racing room, which is generally
defined as sufficient space on the marked racing surface that under
racing conditions, a driver can maintain control of his car in close
quarters.

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that was as a clean start a start as any i've ever been involved in.
when a 15' gap is created at the start, expect someone to fill it, this cat was very smooth in filling the hole safely, notice the white stripes in the enter of the road, never moved more than a foot past them to the right, as -Bob- says, past the green flag, there are no lanes, mr Thill saw him fading right, no big deal, everyone handled themselves correctly and safely.
i do get Buelegan's point though, 12 inches more movement from anyone involved and you have 'a big one' at the start.
In general, when starting 5th row, always be prepared to give cause usually there will be someone taking ...

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No big deal. He put his car in a little hole in order to get to the inside before the next turn. No jumped start and no contact= good job!

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No harm, no foul. If there was a massive pileup, injury, or extensive damage, then we might be talk racing room, etc. But cooler heads prevailed and all is well.

-bw

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I am going to disagree here. Red car left no racing room, period. He is lucky it was a 65 year old man that he forced off the track, almost anyone else and he (red car) would have been spinning off track and into the tire wall at about 80mph. It would have wadded up at least 1 car and maybe more. Not only that, it would have been his own fault. It is not easy to win a race at Summit in T-1 but it sure is easy to lose a race there.

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And if that would have happened Alan, I would agree, red car would have been at fault.

-b

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Ok, I guess I am way off base! I wasn't trying to make a big deal about this specific incident. Yes all went well and overall it was a great start and a clean race.

This is more about making that kind of move at the START of a race. Not about this particular incident. I feel we got lucky only because Thill was on his toes!

He didn't move into a gap, HE MADE ONE! Just because it was a smooth start doesn't make his move OK. You guys are right, what he did was no big deal, "this time". The start went well ONLY because someone else was aware enough to run in the grass and avoid it. What if he had caused "a big one" would you still feel the same way? We have all seen similar moves end the season for some people. I find it very interesting that when nothing happens, it's ok.

So let me get this straight, when I force someone to run in the grass, I have "given them racing room"? [duck]

@ Guest driver - The gap was not 15' it was more like 8' otherwise Thill would not have to run in the grass so he could fit his 12' car all the way in the right lane. He was completely across the center line when he touched Thill, causing him to breath the throttle.

Are we watching the same video, because while it was only a small amount, there was contact! [duck]

Please don't take me the wrong way. I am not upset in any way, but thought this was a good example of an "ALMOST HAD A BIG ONE". I get it, that this was a good start and better than alot of them but I still think it needs some discussion. Which I am getting, so for that thank you all very much.

I have some footage from later in the race, the first part is the same guy, who pushed me to the grass but we both left room and all went well. This is racin'! The second one I get pushed into the grass by Thill and again it went well. This entire race was some of the best racing I have ever had. Started 9th and finished 9th, and ran my best lap. I was only .6 seconds slower than the fastest lap! I don't have a problem with either incident on this video. I just think "THE STARTING LINE" is not the place for it! Again this is just my opinion. Thanks for listening! I love this forum. [Big Grin]

Some close racin'! click here

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Mike Monaghan
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Thank you Alan, finally a voice of reason! [thumbsup]

So again, let me get this straight. You guys think that if nothing happens its ok to make a bad decision but when the big one happens, lets string him up? Seems to be a dangerous mentality for what is supposed to be a FUN HOBBY.

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Mike Monaghan
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Chris Haldeman
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that is no voice of reason.if a person is 85% passed you and starts to move over and take the spot from you no mater where it is happening the responcibility is on you to give up the spot.the red car was over 85% passed and if there was any crash the fault would have been on thill for being stuborn.imagine you just out broke a person into a turn and instead of that driver checking up and letting you in they decide to hit your bumper and cause a spin was that your fault?passes are taken not given and the over taken car needs to yeild.you guys seem to be looking at this as though they were side by side but they were not.just my view take it as you will.

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So if i get 85% past someone its ok to push him into the grass? I feel you must leave room for the guy until you are 100% past him. Should the overtaken driver be more curtious, yes. I respect your view but at the START of a race is not the place, we have seen how bad this can be! Like the video I just posted, its one thing when the field is spread out, but at the start, really?

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Mike Monaghan
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Please direct me to the section of the GCR that states your 85% rule?!?

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gcr or not common sence says at some point during a pass the responcibility shifts from the passer to the passed.you cannot blindly hold your line to the detriment of the person passing you or no pass would ever be completed.also i am not saying i would have made the move that soon.all i am saying is that Thill would have been the cause if there was a crash.it is my opinion you and every driver needs to do their best to avoid contact even if sombody else does something you dont like or if it cost's you position.

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the most important thing i am trying to say is that this was a very clean start and everybody did a great job of racing.

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The red car moved over slowly and a little late to close the gap. Luckily Jim had the sense to lift and prevent a problem. It was not an aggressive move and he didn't pass Jim and then move over on him. It's a lot different when we're 3 (or sometimes 4)wide in at tight pack at the start. A mistake there will be serious. Let's not forget MARRS4 last year.

On the Thill pass in T-9, you had the run but he essentially closed you out by his direction of travel. Had you kept you foot in it T-10 would have been yours. Did you get him in the next turn? [Smile]

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OK so you can't point to a section of the GCR because it is not there. Sorry but you don't get to make up rules when racing SCCA. The rules are quite clear on this:

6.11.1 On Course Driver Conduct
A. Drivers are responsible to avoid physical contact between cars on
the race track. Thill car did this, Red car did not.
B. Each competitor has a right to racing room, which is generally
defined as sufficient space on the marked racing surface that under
racing conditions, a driver can maintain control of his car in close
quarters. Red car did not provide racing room on marked racing surface.
C. Drivers must respect the right of other competitors to racing room. Thill did this, red car did not.
Abrupt changes in direction that impede or affect the path of
another car attempting to overtake or pass may be interpreted as
an effort to deprive a fellow competitor of the right to racing room.
D. The overtaking driver is responsible for the decision to pass another
car and to accomplish it safely. The overtaken driver is responsible
to be aware that he is being passed and not to impede or block the
overtaking car. A driver who does not use his rear view mirror or
who appears to be blocking another car attempting to pass may be
black flagged and/or penalized, as specified in Section 7.


This why we have the GCR. It clearly spells out what you can and cannot do. Race by the rules or get penalized.

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Your right Muda it wasn't really an aggressive move but risky none the less given what we have seen in the past, MARRS 4 last year as you referenced. That is exactly my point to this. Will this happen again? Yes. Could we review this and maybe take a different approach? Yes. I only hope to help avoid avoid those type of incidents.

Yeah I battled hard for the last 5 laps in that race with Thill! I was faster but he schooled me on race craft and knew where to put me! But thats ok because I learned a good bit that day, next time Jim! LOL

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Olson:
I am going to disagree here. Red car left no racing room, period. He is lucky it was a 65 year old man that he forced off the track, almost anyone else and he (red car) would have been spinning off track and into the tire wall at about 80mph. It would have wadded up at least 1 car and maybe more. Not only that, it would have been his own fault. It is not easy to win a race at Summit in T-1 but it sure is easy to lose a race there.

Hey, I'll only be 64 on May 25, cut a guy some slack.

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your bold portion only proves my point.good luck with your racing.as for the rest i agree THill did a great job of driving.

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Marrs 4 2009

MARRS 4 2009 SM in slow motion

The move we are speaking of could have been a replication if not for the Old Man's lifting of the throttle.....

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quote:
Originally posted by techchris:
your bold portion only proves my point.good luck with your racing.as for the rest i agree THill did a great job of driving.

The red car was being overtaken. Therefore the bold part applies to the red car. The red car was in the row in front of Thill (out qualified him by 1 position, P6 vs. P7).

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Sorry Jim couldn't help myself! Didn't mean to start a mess just thought it needed some discussion. I'll post our entire 5 lap battle next, it was a blast!

--------------------
Mike Monaghan
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i am not sure how you think i am disagreing?if you can avoid the crash you need to!!!Thill did a great job.alan your posts stating if it had been anybody other than a 65 nyear old man and the red car would have spun puts the blame on the other car.everybody must do their part!

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quote:
Originally posted by Connie 62:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Olson:
I am going to disagree here. Red car left no racing room, period. He is lucky it was a 65 year old man that he forced off the track, almost anyone else and he (red car) would have been spinning off track and into the tire wall at about 80mph. It would have wadded up at least 1 car and maybe more. Not only that, it would have been his own fault. It is not easy to win a race at Summit in T-1 but it sure is easy to lose a race there.

Hey, I'll only be 64 on May 25, cut a guy some slack.
Well you drive like your 65...

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I'm surprised your turn signal wasn't on...

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Alan, your killing me! [rolling on floor laughin]

--------------------
Mike Monaghan
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At least you didn't blow the 3rd gear shift...

but you probably started out in 3rd...

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Mike, in a perfect world you are 100% right this is supposed to be a gentlemens sport in amateur racing. Some people are very aggressive drivers you have too remember those drivers and expect the unexpected, give them the extra room or be prepared to do lots of repairs. I have heard a driver say I did not back down to teach the guy a lesson he cant squeeze me over. Sometimes their point is to make you think twice. Some guys take the rubbin is racing to heart and forget this is for fun not money or career. The only thing to do is talk to him nicely or protest him did jim do that? If not then he condoned no harm no foul. Maybe jims ego got him too he could have backed off sooner to be safe. It is possible 46 thought he had the room, the slow move over was just in case he was wrong. When we all are required to wear a hans type of device in 2012 expect this to get worse.

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What happened to give and take? Back off a smidge and take the guy in the next corner. There's a reason for all the wrecks at the beginning of MARRS races...

--------------------
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ummm.... is this the PCA forum.....

Even though I sort of agree with Alan, maybe he knew he was passing Jim and would not get punted...

We are talking SSM at one of the tracks with the largest fields and tightest competition around.

I wish that was the tightest start I have ever seen there, if that guy had been passing Payton, he would have pulled into the grass and passed him back, in the grass entering T1.....

I'm just sayin....

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Motor City Hamilton
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I didn't think that was an agressive move. I think it was a mistake, but not agressive. He did move over slowly and Thill was in the most blind spot on a Miata. Nice of Thill to cut him a break. Many others would have left some paint on his bumper.

As for the "taken to the grass" move later in the race, that is a close call. You were up to his door, then he pulled back ahead. Looks like you may have lifted, so he owned the corner?

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You can ask anybody around here and they'll tell you I'm one of the more conservative drivers in a start but I think there was no foul here, and I'm not saying it only because nothing happened. There 11 car had been passed for all intents and purposes. If anything I think 11 should have backed off sooner and gotten inline with the red car or else 11 could have been passed by another car. I think the red car was getting inline with the car in front. Maybe the red car thought he'd clear the 11 car mistakenly but at some point, I agree with techchris, you become the passer not the passee. It is really hard to write a rule like that (yellow tape on the mirrors anyone? [Smile] )

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B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Motor City Hamilton:
I didn't think that was an agressive move. I think it was a mistake, but not agressive. He did move over slowly and Thill was in the most blind spot on a Miata. Nice of Thill to cut him a break. Many others would have left some paint on his bumper.

As for the "taken to the grass" move later in the race, that is a close call. You were up to his door, then he pulled back ahead. Looks like you may have lifted, so he owned the corner?

Forget about up to the door and owning a corner! It doesn't exist in SCCA club racing (it does in NASA though)

If there is any overlap, then both must give racing room.

If there is any doubt about what I'm saying, please go talk to the chief steward at your next race.

-b

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Bruce Wilson
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hythloday
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I think the problem is that fully half the guys in SM follow the NASA passing rule and the other half are following the SCCA concept.

Typically, a passer gets up to the door of the passee and expects the guy to yield, but of course, the passee expects "racing room" and contact occurs.

Connie 62 Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I think most of the comments here are good and I don't disagree with anyone. Except anyone in my position who doesn't lift and continues to pass in the grass deserves to have his license lifted.

I've spent a lot of time racing with that red car and have come to trust him. He thought he had the room and made a slow move into the space. I didn't lift until I was forced to. I could have lifted sooner but I didn't want to give up the spot until I had to.

SSM in WDC has large fields and I feel that part of the reason is that we show some respect for the safety of other drivers and their equipment.

(Addition) I think the NASA rule that allows you to drive a competitor two wheels into the grass is dangerous and should be changed.

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Jim Thill
#11 SSM
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Thrillz Racing

Motor City Hamilton
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Under NASA rule, the white car on the outside gave enough room - 2/3 of a car width, right. So he was in the clear under NASA. The camera car should have stayed in it and passed with two wheels in the grass.

Under SCCA rules, the camera car was not along side, so the white car owned the corner.

So the camera car loses on both counts in the second video.

hythloday
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I think you've got it mixed up. Kinda makes my point.

John Nesbitt
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Not related to this thread in particular, but racing in general.

Here are the entire SCCA rules of the road (emphasis added):

6.11. RULES OF THE ROAD
6.11.1 On Course Driver Conduct
A. Drivers are responsible to avoid physical contact between cars on
the race track.

B. Each competitor has a right to racing room, which is generally
defined as sufficient space on the marked racing surface that under
racing conditions, a driver can maintain control of his car in close
quarters.


C. Drivers must respect the right of other competitors to racing room.
Abrupt changes in direction that impede or affect the path of
another car attempting to overtake or pass may be interpreted as
an effort to deprive a fellow competitor of the right to racing room.

D. The overtaking driver is responsible for the decision to pass another
car and to accomplish it safely. The overtaken driver is responsible
to be aware that he is being passed and not to impede or block the
overtaking car. A driver who does not use his rear view mirror or
who appears to be blocking another car attempting to pass may be
black flagged and/or penalized, as specified in Section 7.


<sermon>

You will notice that the phrase "own the corner" does not exist anywhere in the GCR. (Neither do the phrases "incidental contact' or "just a racing thing", but that's another sermon.)

What does exist is the right to racing room.

</sermon>

Motor City Hamilton
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quote:
Originally posted by hythloday:
I think you've got it mixed up. Kinda makes my point.

Are you talking about the second video? We did watch the same video, right?

hythloday
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GCR Page 48.

Chris Windsor Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
windsorcustoms.com

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Hey Bueller,
Did you have a talk with this driver and get his perception on this issue after the race? [scratchchin]

If not, just frying someone here with a video, and not knowing any other details is crazy. [flamed]

[help] This is racing and sometimes the largest Onions will get the spot and sometimes they will get you hurt-Pick your battles, keep in your comfort zone

Talk to your competitors, maybe after a discussion they will be less likely to force a move next time. [yep]

When you know WHO you are racing it results in less contact MOST of the time. [Big Grin]
[group hug]

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Connie 62 Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Chris Windsor:

Did you have a talk with this driver and get his perception on this issue after the race?

A driver's "perception" doesn't make a move any more or less dangerous, but it might make me more or less angry.
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Windsor:



When you know WHO you are racing it results in less contact MOST of the time.

Couldn't agree more. This is what SSM is all about.

--------------------
Jim Thill
#11 SSM
#3 ITA
Thrillz Racing

 
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