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Author Topic: Risky move on the start? Opinions.
guest driver
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i don't know mr Thill, but what he said above;
"anyone in my position who doesn't lift and continues to pass in the grass deserves to have his license lifted" ...
is the smartest and wisest thing anyone has said here. Realize though, the next time it may be on YOU to lift ... and live to battle for position in the upcoming turns.
guys who think like this and race you hard but fair are a pleasure to race against, that sentence above has to be accepted by ALL of us.

kdohne
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Give him racing room in the corner yes but this was the straight. There is absolutely NO rule that the driver being passed needs to lift. That's crazy.

hythloday
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I'm amazed at all the confusion displayed here regarding the "racing room" concept.

I will always defend my "right to racing room" (GCR). I'm not going to be forced off the track, ever, if I can help it. If that means big damage, so be it.

I once saw a guy "driven off"-- actually rolled-- into a worker bunker and it wasn't pretty.

hythloday
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And kdohne-- "racing room" applies to the straights too.

guest driver
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quote:
Originally posted by hythloday:
I'm amazed at all the confusion displayed here regarding the "racing room" concept.

I will always defend my "right to racing room" (GCR). I'm not going to be forced off the track, ever, if I can help it. If that means big damage, so be it.

I once saw a guy "driven off"-- actually rolled-- into a worker bunker and it wasn't pretty.

WOW ...
ya haven't raced much have ya ...
get back to us in a year, after ya gone through countless fenders and a couple new tubs ... not to mention trashing a few competitors cars including innocent ones caught up in your mist.

"real men do lift" & come back to pass the offender a turn or two later, clean and safe.

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quote:
Originally posted by guest driver:
quote:
Originally posted by hythloday:
I'm amazed at all the confusion displayed here regarding the "racing room" concept.

I will always defend my "right to racing room" (GCR). I'm not going to be forced off the track, ever, if I can help it. If that means big damage, so be it.

I once saw a guy "driven off"-- actually rolled-- into a worker bunker and it wasn't pretty.

WOW ...
ya haven't raced much have ya ...
get back to us in a year, after ya gone through countless fenders and a couple new tubs ... not to mention trashing a few competitors cars including innocent ones caught up in your mist.

"real men do lift" & come back to pass the offender a turn or two later, clean and safe.

I agree
Jim

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Windsor, Yes I know who it is and I didnt mention his name because this isnt really about him. I was just using this as an example. The mention about his other moves only came from a few others who voiced a concern to me privately. I have no problem with him at all, which was the reason for the second video. He gave me racing room (not much)but room none the less, later in the race. While Thill pushed me into the grass I had no problem with it either, thats racing and we talked after the race and agreed we had a great time!. That was one of the best races I have had. This was not meant to be a battle but simply a discussion. I am not calling him out, he is a great guy and I meant no disrespect to him at ALL!


My point was to discuss what I saw as a risky move "AT THE START" of a race by ANYONE. I could see doing that if the cars in front of him had checked up and he felt he needed to be there to avoid something. To me, he forced himself there just for the sake of the inside at turn one. To me that was "slightly risky" when there was plenty of room where he was. Again, anywhere else, later in the race, what he did was fine, but at the starting line? Really? When ALL 40 cars are grouped so tightly?

Like Jim said this is what makes SSM so great, because we can discuss these things in hopes of better and safer races! I must apologize if my method was misunderstood. I have had others who see this the way Alan and I did and thought I was doing good to bring it up for discussion. I think in club racing as a hobby one should put safety well above position in a race. He should have stayed to the left of center until we got a little more sorted out. Sorry if anyone disagrees with MY OPINION but I hate body work! LOL

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quote:
I will always defend my "right to racing room" (GCR). I'm not going to be forced off the track, ever, if I can help it. If that means big damage, so be it.

This mentality is one reason I brought this up! I believe it has NO PLACE in "Club Racing"!

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Mike Monaghan
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hythloday
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I've raced a lot, 15 years worth, SSC before SM, Prod and FV before that; yeah, I've had contact.

But I'll always leave you racing room, and I expect the same. And I'm going to assume you've read the GCR.

Driving guys off into the grass, the mud, a wall or into a worker bunker is a lot more dangerous than rubbing paint.

Just keep in mind that the next time you squeeze some body off, that is: fail to allow "racing room," there are lots of guys like me out there that aren't buying it.

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quote:
Originally posted by hythloday:

Driving guys off into the grass, the mud, a wall or into a worker bunker is a lot more dangerous than rubbing paint.

Just keep in mind that the next time you squeeze some body off, that is: fail to allow "racing room," there are lots of guys like me out there that aren't buying it.

Those who race with me know I'm a "no contact" type of racer. But I have to say I agree with the statement above. A donut on the door is a whole lot better than a trip to the tire wall. But again, I try not to put myself in that spot, and when I see it happening I try to back out. A lot of contact out there happens when a driver puts himself/herself in a bad spot and the inevitable happens.

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Niklas Falk
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quote:
Originally posted by Buelligan:
quote:
I will always defend my "right to racing room" (GCR). I'm not going to be forced off the track, ever, if I can help it. If that means big damage, so be it.

This mentality is one reason I brought this up! I believe it has NO PLACE in "Club Racing"!
And you think being forced off track has?

This situation had very little overlap but when are you "passed" according to GCR?
I'm a FIA guy myself (different text similar meaning) and usually want to judge any overlap as a situation when both are responsible to leave room.
I've had some heated discussions with one fellow racer that needed the whole width of the corner (contact although I was at the very outside and no one else near us), four car widths was apparently not enough room...

Good discussions though, it's always nice to able to went these things.
Stay on track to be able to fight back later is one way to look at it, but it only works nicely if all are following similar principles (hence the Drivers Conduct and other rules).

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No, being forced off track does not belong either. But like someone else said the mentality of being stubborn "I'm not going to be forced off the track" is a bit rough. Just because the guy is pushing you off doesn't make it right to push back. The old saying "two wrongs don't make a right" comes to mind.

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hythloday
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quote:
Originally posted by Niklas Falk:
quote:
Originally posted by Buelligan:
quote:
I will always defend my "right to racing room" (GCR). I'm not going to be forced off the track, ever, if I can help it. If that means big damage, so be it.

This mentality is one reason I brought this up! I believe it has NO PLACE in "Club Racing"!
And you think being forced off track has?

This situation had very little overlap but when are you "passed" according to GCR?
I'm a FIA guy myself (different text similar meaning) and usually want to judge any overlap as a situation when both are responsible to leave room.
I've had some heated discussions with one fellow racer that needed the whole width of the corner (contact although I was at the very outside and no one else near us), four car widths was apparently not enough room...

Good discussions though, it's always nice to able to went these things.
Stay on track to be able to fight back later is one way to look at it, but it only works nicely if all are following similar principles (hence the Drivers Conduct and other rules).

The only obligation of the driver who is being passed is to avoid contact and to not block.

"[Drivers have]a right to racing room...defined as sufficient space on the marked racing surface that under racing conditions, a driver can maintain control of his car in close quarters."

Niklas Falk
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quote:
Originally posted by Buelligan:
No, being forced off track does not belong either. But like someone else said the mentality of being stubborn "I'm not going to be forced off the track" is a bit rough. Just because the guy is pushing you off doesn't make it right to push back. The old saying "two wrongs don't make a right" comes to mind.

Pushing back and moving over to the track marking (but not further) are two very different things.
And the amount of overlap also affect what's the most reasonable thing to do (as a survivor in the moment, leaving the rules and judgement to the marshals).
In this situation, lifting would be my move (and some sarcastic remarks afterwards if the rest of the race is dull), make the overlap FW-RW and I'm not so sure (needs almost breaking which can be a risky move), FW-Door and it's almost side-by-side...

hythloday
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quote:
Originally posted by Niklas Falk:
quote:
Originally posted by Buelligan:
No, being forced off track does not belong either. But like someone else said the mentality of being stubborn "I'm not going to be forced off the track" is a bit rough. Just because the guy is pushing you off doesn't make it right to push back. The old saying "two wrongs don't make a right" comes to mind.

Pushing back and moving over to the track marking (but not further) are two very different things.
And the amount of overlap also affect what's the most reasonable thing to do (as a survivor in the moment, leaving the rules and judgement to the marshals).
In this situation, lifting would be my move (and some sarcastic remarks afterwards if the rest of the race is dull), make the overlap FW-RW and I'm not so sure (needs almost breaking which can be a risky move), FW-Door and it's almost side-by-side...


hythloday
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quote:
Originally posted by Niklas Falk:
quote:
Originally posted by Buelligan:
No, being forced off track does not belong either. But like someone else said the mentality of being stubborn "I'm not going to be forced off the track" is a bit rough. Just because the guy is pushing you off doesn't make it right to push back. The old saying "two wrongs don't make a right" comes to mind.

Pushing back and moving over to the track marking (but not further) are two very different things.
And the amount of overlap also affect what's the most reasonable thing to do (as a survivor in the moment, leaving the rules and judgement to the marshals).
In this situation, lifting would be my move (and some sarcastic remarks afterwards if the rest of the race is dull), make the overlap FW-RW and I'm not so sure (needs almost breaking which can be a risky move), FW-Door and it's almost side-by-side...

Bear in mind: In my world "overlap" is simply not relevant. I would have tapped the guy.

Flame away, but bear in mind, guys like me are out there; videos always rolling, and on very good terms with a great body shop.

Motor City Hamilton
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Wow. There's some give and take right there from the guy who yesterday was touting the letter of the rules. The GCR doesn't say I have to give you a break, so... out of may way.

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Let me be very clear (and I hope 99% of you agree with me), but anyone who would wreck a fellow driver when he has a choice not to, should be met in the paddock by a group of his ex-friends carrying two pound hammers. And the mob should then beat the offenders car until it looks like a golf ball used for 36 holes by a 30 handicapper.

Did I make myself clear?

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In my opinion, there are situations at the start where two competitors both feel they are 'right" and go for the same piece of real estate. One has to lift or crash both. At this years Runoffs, I really wanted to beat Matt into Turn 1, felt like it could be a make or break situation for me. It was close, but I knew Matt had to go for it as well. I knew if I didnt lift, we would have touched and lost any chance of winning and likely take out many with us. Matt did nothing wrong, I would have done the same in his position, just all racing hard and clean imo, this isn't much different. In this scenario, I would have probably lifted a tick earlier as there was litle need to get in the grass and nothing gained by doing it IMO. Not sure there is a right or wrong here.
Jim

--------------------
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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
In this scenario, I would have probably lifted a tick earlier as there was litle need to get in the grass and nothing gained by doing it IMO. Not sure there is a right or wrong here.
Jim

I agree completely. It just took my aging brain a couple seconds to overcome the "I can't believe he's doing this" surprise.

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I have to think that was a class move by Jim not to force the issue at the start it could have been a huge pile up and wrecked a bunch of good cars. I don't think it was a good move by the other car but also I beleive Jim may have left too much room between him and the car in front of him. Just check the video from CMP a few weeks back and you can see what could have happened. Great job being smart and seeing the big picture

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This is a real tough one but I think Jim Thill did the right thing. Jim has the right to the racing surface. After he has moved over as far as he can, the other car cannot take away that room. But, for me I wonder who's to blame if in lifting Jim gets rear ended and causes more carnage?

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This situation unfolded as I would have expected it to. At the start there needs to be a lot of give and take and it's a bit of a free for all. It doesn't matter what the GCR says, nobody drives 100% per the GCR, and the GCR doesn't address racing etiquette or grey areas.

Leave a hole on the start and you better expect it to be filled by another car. It was quite obvious to all the guy was coming over (when he started the move he had the space to move over, and he should have done so quickly, not slowly...but slower is safer since everyone sees it coming) but was going to pinch Jim by the time he got there because it was a slow move and Jim was closing the gap. Jim could have lifted sooner and avoided the grass but as he said he was a little slow to process the situation. He did the right thing in avoiding contact safely. No harm, no foul.

I agree with some of the other comments, this is pretty tame compared to many of the starts I've been involved with.

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