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Author Topic: Tires for SARRC / Regional
Mike C Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Just to be clear on what the GCR rules are:

National = Toyo R888 (only)

Regional = 205/50/15 D.O.T. Open. REGIONS may spec a tire.

SARRC and ECR are not regions, they are race series. If SARRC and ECR want a spec tire for points that is fine but not part of the GCR. A REGION not DIVISION can spec a tire and if they do so it must be in the Supplementary Regulations for EACH event.

If you ran a "2009" points event in 2008 on RA1's and were using the SARRC rule you would have been legal. The R888 is in the 2009 GCR and was not in effect in 2008.

--------------------
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Derek Luney Verified Driver
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Paul,

I think it is the opposite.

Regional races are open tire unless specified by the region. SARRC and ECR races are SPEC tire = National tire because the supps for the SARRC and ECR events refer to the SEDIV SARRC and ECR rules where that Spec rule is posted.

Regional races that are not SARRC or ECR events are Open Tire unless the supps say otherwise. You can run goodyear/Hoosier/whatever unless the supps say you can't.

Up here the CCPS is such a regional event and their rules spec either RA-1 or R888. The non-SARRC, non-ECR race you mentioned in an earlier post is open tire UNLESS they spec otherwise.

I agree with you that this is one of those issues that they could consider but as Butch has pointed out they have made their decision for now and don't appear to have any inclination to reconsider before the July meeting.

"Your Honor, I'm glad you have consented to review my client's sentence but they executed him last night."

Derek

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I understand what the GCR says regarding the tires. I am confused as to how the SEDIV rules apply to regional races. If you go to the SEDIV website and select SEDIV Regional Class Rules 2009 (NOT THE SARRC rules), it says the tire for SM regional races in the SEDIV is the National tire. This is the same rule listed in the SARRC rules for 2009.

So Mike are you saying that the SEDIV regional rules don't apply to regional races occurring in the SEDIV? In other words does the SEDIV regional rules dictate what the regions can do? Sorry I am probably over lawyering this issue, but I want to be clear.

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Butch Kummer
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Derek - I started out to write that the RA-1 was the only tire available in October 2008, but changed that when I recognized that I don't know that for a fact. Rather than stir up the "you don't know sh!t about tires hornet's nest", I changed my post to one that offended you. For that I apologize. My only intent (there's that word again) was that what happened in the past (both in 2008 & early 2009) has happened and there's nothing that can be done about it now.

Paul - you are correct that the SEDIV rules can be changed after January due to extreme circumstances. I'm glad to take this up with the PTB, but it certainly won't happen in time to change what is in place for next weekend's VIR event. Until then, it's 888s, submit a waiver, or hope for the best if you want to run SARRC of ECR on RA-1s.

The majority of SEDIV SM drivers have stated repeatedly that they want the same tire specified for both National and Regional competition. The phase-in of the R-888 in 2009 has confounded that desire.

IF (and note the capitals) the SEDIV RE's agree to change the rules to allow the RA-1 for a set period of time, what should that limit be?

Should there be a limit to the "born on" date similar to what's done with CCPS?

At one time it was important that SEDIV share the same tire rule as NASA. Is that still a factor? If so, what IS the NASA rule regarding the RA-1 in 2009?

To that end, work with your SEDIV SM Advisory Committee to establish a consensus among the SEDIV SM drivers on how we should handle this. After that I'll be glad to take it up with the SEDIV Class Review Board, then the Tech Committee & Race Chairs, then finally submit it to the REs for a vote.

For better or worse, SCCA is not a dictatorship. As much as all of us might want to mandate procedure for allowing you to burn off old RA-1s, we simply cannot do that.


Regarding Mike's comment that the division cannot spec a tire, he is correct. But the division (SEDIV) can develop rules for their (our) series and require that all races run within those series follow said rules. I don't know for sure about every other region in SEDIV, but I know that all Atlanta Region SARRC and ECR events contain the phrase:

"This event is governed by the 200x GCR, Category Specifications, FasTrack amendments, SARRC Rules, ECR Rules, and these Supplementary Regulations."

As Tom Fowler suggested way back on page one of this thread, make sure you read the Supps for any event you plan to attend.

Butch Kummer

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Mike C Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Butch is correct. Every set of supps has to declare what rules in addition too (not in conflict with) the GCR will be enforced. The supps are issued by the host region. If they choose to acknowledge a Division set of rules they can, but the division has no authority other than by gentleman's agreement amongst the regions.

The NEDIV does not have Regional Spec for 2009 (yet) So since Washington DC is the farthest south and we start a little earlier than our northern brethren the WDCR is going with the 7/1/09 sunset rule on RA1's with R888's approved for use now and required after 7/1/09 for regional racing.

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Mike Collins
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SamBarnett Verified Driver
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How about just a gentlemen's agreement that no one file a protest over running RA1's at VIR and then there will be time for SARRC/ECR to update their rules before the event after if they decide it to be necessary.

This whole confusion makes me wonder the necessity of having SCCA club racing broken up into Regional and National competition. NASA doesn't do that and they don't seem to have these kind of problems with rule confusion. If national and regional were combined it would make for some really large fields too which is what we are looking for right? Just something to think about :-)

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Mike C Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Sam, you can thank a couple of VERY specific national BoD members who seem to have other interest when it comes to something as simple as a spec class being on a spec tire in the GCR.

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Mike Collins
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Danny Steyn Verified Driver
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IMHO the sooner we come to a SINGLE spec tire and enforce it, the sooner we contain the costs (which is the intent of specing a tire). While its early days yet, the R888 will work for all, and we will all learn how to get the most out of it, both in performance and wear.

I understand the desire to allow old RA-1's to be used, and I think it's a good idea, but there will be lots of new RA-1's and early-born-on RA-1's sourced and shipped from other drivers if the pointy end of the field beleives that they are at a disadvantage running R88's.

Would love to beleive that we are all gentlemen and will all give the other driver a chance to use up their tires, but if there is an advantage to be gained, drivers will take it.

I suggest that if you do allow RA-1's, then you should allow all RA-1's irrespective of DOB / DOP. Trying to determine date of purchase / date of birth adds another unneccessary area to tech inspection.

I would personally prefer
1. everyone use R88's now for all events (or)
2. everyone be able to use any RA-1's until a specified date (DOB or DOP irrelevant)

Just my $0.02

[ 03-01-2009, 11:04 PM: Message edited by: Danny Steyn ]

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Jim Creighton
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Mike C.

The SEDiv is incorporated and we have an operations manual which covers all our Division programs and series. Long ago, we found it was better to organize and operate as a unit rather than try to run programs under a "gentleman's agreement."

Here are the sections from the 2009 SARRC rules that apply.

"SOUTH ATLANTIC ROAD RACING CHAMPIONSHIP
STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURES
2009
The purpose of these guidelines is to give continuity from year to year for the administration of the South Atlantic Road Racing Championship and to give a standard for procedures for the Series to all the regions of the Southeast Division of the Sports Car Club of America.

4.1 A copy of each SARRC race supplementary regulations and entry form will be sent to the SARRC Administrator before a sanction number can be issued by the National office {7-99}. The Administrator will check the form for compliance with the SARRC rules and regulation. The SARRC decal shall appear on the entry and it shall be designated as a SARRC event. [9-97]

5.4 All events are to be sanctioned by SCCA and held under the provisions of the current General Competition Rules of the SCCA and the SEDIV SARRC Rules and so noted in the event Supplementary Regulations. [1-04] Current SEDiv Regional class rules as published on http://www.sedivracing.org are a part of the SARRC rules. {1-06}"


Thus, if the language required is not in the supps, the Administrator does not approve and the event is not sanctioned as SARRC race.

Regions are not permitted to change the SARRC rules for their events. This is how we insure continuity and fairness throughout the Division.

Based on our rules, a driver or official can protest any car that is not in compliance to the rules, either GCR or SEDiv Regional rules.

The complete SARRC rules are available at http://www.sedivracing.org.

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Mike C Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Jim, I agree with everything you said. But like I pointed out SARRC is a race series not a region. I am going to go out on a limb here and assume a SEDiv region can put on a club race without it being a SARRC race? Not trying to stir the pot, just curious how it works.

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Mike Collins
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d mathias Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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To answer Butch's question, to the best of my knowledge NASA will permit RA-1s for a driver's first 2 events in 2009, after which R888s are required. What I don't know is if that means if you don't run any NASA events until, say, September if you still qualify for the 2 event waiver? Perhap Mr. Holland can clarify.

quote:
makes me wonder the necessity of having SCCA club racing broken up into Regional and National competition
That's what I'm screamin'. If we're required to buy new Toyos to race on a regional level why can't regional events get a slice of the contingency pie. (I know, same old broken record)

Terry Whitlock Verified Driver
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Mike,
All of this is making the MARRS and NED look very enlightened. Glad to see you guys continue to be focused on what is in the best interest of the majority of your competitors. I wish folks here in the South had a similar focus, but it appears some are more interested in procedure than doing the right thing. Sadly, I think many competitiors will vote with their feet and car counts will suffer. However, those in decision making capacities will continue to believe being rigid is the proper position. Congratulations on putting rules in place that reflect the interests of your competitors.

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quote:
Originally posted by d mathias:
To answer Butch's question, to the best of my knowledge NASA will permit RA-1s for a driver's first 2 events in 2009, after which R888s are required. What I don't know is if that means if you don't run any NASA events until, say, September if you still qualify for the 2 event waiver? Perhap Mr. Holland can clarify.

quote:
makes me wonder the necessity of having SCCA club racing broken up into Regional and National competition
That's what I'm screamin'. If we're required to buy new Toyos to race on a regional level why can't regional events get a slice of the contingency pie. (I know, same old broken record)
Denny, here's the text.

RICHMOND, CA (Dec 03, 2008) The National Auto Sport Association (NASA) announced today a change in NASA's spec tire program for the 2009 season. Beginning January 1st, 2009, NASA's spec tire program will transition from the required Toyo RA-1 tire to the new R888 tire as the RA-1 is phased out of production. To assist with this transitional period, competitors will be eligible to use the Toyo RA-1 or R888 tire for the first 2 race weekends of the 2009 season in their respective region. However, this rule will not apply to the classes which have already transitioned to the R888. This change was enacted to allow competitors ample time to use any remaining tires they may have left over from the 2008 season. After this period, the Toyo R888 will be the only tire allowed in the Toyo tire classes.

Basically, the Ra-1's are good for the first two events of any region's 2009 calendar. After that, no way. Doing it based on the competitors first two events would be a nightmare of verification.

thanks

Jason

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Got it, thanks.

Butch Kummer
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quote:
Originally posted by Terry Whitlock:
Mike,
All of this is making the MARRS and NED look very enlightened. Glad to see you guys continue to be focused on what is in the best interest of the majority of your competitors. I wish folks here in the South had a similar focus, but it appears some are more interested in procedure than doing the right thing. Sadly, I think many competitiors will vote with their feet and car counts will suffer. However, those in decision making capacities will continue to believe being rigid is the proper position. Congratulations on putting rules in place that reflect the interests of your competitors.

I tried to let this slide, but I feel I need to point out the obvious:

NEDIV and DC Region's season doesn't start until late April each year while the SARRC season starts the weekend after the SIC (which falls in Sept or Oct) each year. It's a lot easier to change the rules to account for unforeseen circumstances (and be "very enlightened") when you haven't conducted any races and it doesn't affect anyone's accumulated points.

Even at that, you've got some DC folks bitching about being told last fall that they need to sell their RA-1s and now being told they're legal until 07/01/09. As I wrote once before, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

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Derek Luney Verified Driver
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Mike,

Yes indeed there are regional events in the SEDIV that are not SARRC or ECR events. You have run in at least one, the VIR 13 hour. In addition on last years schedule was a regional sprint event at Rockingham and I believe Sebring runs one or two such events each year.

Denny and Terry,

I agree with you competely about Mike and his ability to extract a few ounces of flesh from Toyo for the gift we have given them in the SEDIV. We boldly boast the SARRC as the most successful regional race series. We should have been able to extract a few pounds.

Danny,

Again, I disagree completely. Your scenario is nearly unique affecting only a small subset of the field. Want to save money? Advocate for a testing ban ala NASCAR and I'll support that 100%.

For the majority of the entrants not being able to use the tires they have will mean cutting 1 or more race weekends from their schedule.

Sam,

A gentlemans agreement won't work. Not because of Danny, as I believe he is a gentleman and would go along, but because Jim and Rick have made it clear that you will be DQ'd and have reinforced that by restating their authority to take that action without a competitor protest.

To whomever suggested rolling Regional and National together as NASA does, I think that is in part what is happening now and I think it is the problem not the solution. Regional rules that keep the racing fun and affordable for the guys racing on a smaller budget and not set up as a support for National races is a great benefit to the club and I would argue a much greater benefit than the National race series. The numbers (at least in SM) speak for themselves.

Derek

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OK - Given the weather the past few days, the more important question is what SNOW tire is legal? :-) Seriously - the weather forecast is awesome for this coming weekend. Hope to see "yous guys" at the event.
Glenn Long NCR RE & Long Road Racing Owner

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Conserving money in times like these are important. I just bought R888s for sarrc but will run ccup instead of ecr to use Ra1s. $1200 dollars of tires to throw away is stupid. Old Dog VERY UNHAPPY.

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I would like to campaign to REMOVE/DELETE the SEDIV Spec Miata rules for 2010. I have found that confusing from the beginning. Rules should either be in the GCR or spelled out in the event Supps. The Spec Miata rules are adequately described in the GCR and Fastrack updates, so there is no further justification for SEDIV to have their own SM rules at all. Regional class rules are great for classes that don't exist otherwise.

This is irrespective of the BOD's failure to approve the recommendations of the SMAC/CRB as should have been done for 2009.

Cheers,
-Mark

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quote:
Originally posted by Butch Kummer:

Even at that, you've got some DC folks bitching about being told last fall that they need to sell their RA-1s and now being told they're legal until 07/01/09. As I wrote once before, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Butch, I could be wrong but I think you might be referencing my comment from another thread towards Mike. Just to be clear, I was busting his balls not bitching as you note above.

That being said I agree with previous comments that in 2008 RA 1 was the legal tire so people should not have be DQ'ed if they ran them. The way your rules are written they should be now.

I understand the reasoning for grandfathering the RA1's but everyone new the new tire was coming well before season end. Also I believe the true intent of the grandfathering was to allow people to use up "old" RA1's. The fact of the matter is that is not what is going to happen. There are still a lot of new RA1's out there with the tire distributors and people are going to continue to buy these new RA1's and use them up as their "old" RA1's as long as they can and as long as their is a performance advantage. Not quite the intent of the rule I believe.

I am with Danny, the sooner we are all on the same tire the better. Is it July 2nd yet?

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I do have a question about the points waiver and that is if I'm running r888s on my car and finish say 10th (like that could happen) and have 9 cars finish in front of me running ra1s. Do I get credited for 10th place points or 1st place points? thanks, Steve

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Butch Kummer
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Tim - you are correct, I was referencing your comments in the other thread. Without smilies, it's tough to tell the tone of one's post. I do agree that people are (or were) using the proposed "grandfather clause" to purchase new RA-1s because they feel they are superior to the R-888s. It's a f*cked up situation for everyone.

OEM Steve - assuming all nine cars in front of you filed the waiver, you would get first place points. Not saying anyone would, but if some of the cars did not waive their points they would be subject to protest by fellow competitors or event officials. They would lose the protest and be disqualified, thus moving up everyone behind them in the finishing order.

BK

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Jim Creighton
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Steve

Clear out a place on your trophy case for your 1st place award. Any car on RA-1's should have filled out the points waiver. If they did, you would get credit for 1st place and 1st place points. If they are RA-1's and have not completed the waiver, they are subject to DSQ by the Chief Steward or protest from another competitor. The waiver is located on the last page of the SARRC rules at http://www.sedivracing.org.

Although the GCR requires that a protest against the compliance of another car be filed 1 hour prior to the race, there is a clause that allows a protest due to circumstances- GCR 8.3.2.B.7. I would think that tires would fall in this category.

Hopefully, everyone now knows that the RA-1 can be run but requires the waiver and will abide by the rules.

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The waiver deal worked great, I am glad I was able to run with my RA-1s at VIR - had a great time.

The only thing I would recommend is maybe we come up with a "waiver sticker" (a little colored dot or something) that could go on the tech sticker, because grid workers and tech helpers asked me every time "hey, you've got the wrong tires, got a waiver?" to which my reply was always "yes, signed it in tech and delivered it to the Chief Steward." Would have saved them a second if there was a little color sticker on my tech sticker that they could have seen from a distance. But no big.

And for better or worse, my RA-1s have a ton of life left on them after a test day, 2 ECRs and a SARRC, and associated practice and qualifying sessions...so it looks like I have another couple waiver races in my future.

Cheers,
-Mark

 
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