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Author Topic: 6 car SM wreck at CMP today
oem steve
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Kudos to Andrew for his post, I know he just wants to get this put behind him and get back to racing. Although looking at the video Sam posted they really should have waved off the start, it does appear from Fusners rear view that Sam was already out of line and between the white and green cars at the time George hit the gas. I hope that we all can just learn a little from this and possibly avoid similar incidents in the future. [group hug]

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Colin MacLean Verified Driver
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Sorry guys but come on.

#1 I don't think anyone believes Sam's actions were intentional. No-one. He made a mistake, we all do. However the only thing stopping races from being utter chaos is respect for each other, the rules and CONSEQUENCES.

#2 To not blame Sam 100% for this wreck and not have him punished by the SCCA is utterly unforgivable. This is the type of outcome that will make people stop dead in their tracks before joining the SM ranks.

The SCCA by not acting here just basically said "forget the green flag, forget staying in line, forget not passing before the green, get the hell out of someone's way if they're barreling down the middle and if you touch it's not their fault."

This is without a doubt one of the worst decisions I've ever seen the stewards make. Ever.

If someone gets out of line before the green, jumps the start and then gets into contact with two other cars, doesn't back off when contact starts then creates a massive pile-up there has to be consequences. Period.

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Colin MacLean
Flyin' MacLean Motorsports

Zauskycop Verified Driver
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Well, I don't have alot of SM experience (none haha...YET) but I do have racing experience. I will try to put a "Devil's Advocate" view out there...though I may not agree with it.

Looking at the rearview mirror and realizing that P3 car was hanging back a bit...then moved over, perhaps Sam was trying to get next to the "correct" car and stay in "formation" better for the start. His qualifying spot would have put him next to the green car...right? So would the car hanging back, and offline be at fault, or would Sam for trying to achieve his correct starting spot be at fault?

...whether or not that was his intent may never be known.

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Tracy Ramsey
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Alright, I've had enough.

I understand that this is a hobby and we're just out to have fun.

No one wants to be the heavy. And that seems to be at the root of the issue here.

Blaming the starter is ridiculous. Standard practice for starters is to green flag a crappy grid and black flag the offenders. This is not pro. They don't have all day to wait for you to get it right. It sickens me to see adults passing the buck by even brining this up.

The real a** biter here is the stewards don't have the balls to make a decision. All too often this is the case (speaking from personal experience). They're volunteering their time and some of them don't want to make their weekend experience stressful by participating in conflict.

The bottom line is this: SOMEONE is at fault here. It's not the starter. SOMEONE needs to be sanctioned. Failing to do so sends a VERY bad message to the drivers and to perspective drivers.

I'm not going to venture an opinion as to who is at fault. But SOMEONE is.

I suggest that if anyone from the list of protesters is on this forum, that you appeal your protest to the highest authority. I also suggest that if the appeal is upheld that the stewards who failed to act be sat down and asked if they really want the responsibility of maintaining our safety. If they're not willing to do what it takes, we will find someone who will.

I have no skin in this game. I'm out of region and not in SM any longer. But I will add that decisions like this one are 100% of why I left SM and regional racing.

-Kyle

Greg Bush Verified Driver
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Two wrongs don't make a right.

If either driver didn't do what they did, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Both drivers deserve corrective action.

Brian Cates
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I vote for standing starts [Big Grin]

EFoss28 Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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Standing starts are awesome!!!

Well unless you stall the car <cough> or leave it in reverse [Big Grin]

MX-5 Cup has the option for standing starts this year!

NASA used to do them once per weekend per race group. I thought that was the coolest thing ever.

--------------------
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d mathias Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I love being told "It was a racing incident".

Aren't they all "racing incidents", I mean they're not fishing incidents, or golfing incidents.

When I hear "it was a racing incident" I interpret it to mean "buzz-off you wingnut, I volunteer for this sh!t and I'm missing the beer party".

Dan Tiley Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by EFoss28:
Standing starts are awesome!!!

Well unless you stall the car <cough> or leave it in reverse [Big Grin]

MX-5 Cup has the option for standing starts this year!

NASA used to do them once per weekend per race group. I thought that was the coolest thing ever.

Better yet, we could do the old LeMans starts where they had to first run across pit road to get into their cars. That way we could all wreck each other before even getting into the car!

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Jim Creighton
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A question for Sam Barnett.

What SCCA license do you have? Is it a National or Regional and when was it issued?

Your member profile does not show you with a license!

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Jim Creighton
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John Nesbitt
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quote:
Originally posted by d mathias:
I love being told "It was a racing incident".

Aren't they all "racing incidents", I mean they're not fishing incidents, or golfing incidents.

When I hear "it was a racing incident" I interpret it to mean "buzz-off you wingnut, I volunteer for this sh!t and I'm missing the beer party".

It cuts both ways. I often hear that from drivers when I am investigating a report of contact.

Everybody (stewards and drivers) needs to remember that the phrases 'racing incident', 'incidental contact', and 'just a racing thing' don't appear anywhere in the GCR.

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by d mathias:
I love being told "It was a racing incident".


How about "that's racing" I like that about the same amount! It seems like a license to get @#^%&!

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Jim Drago
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Lance Snyder Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by EFoss28:

leave it in reverse [Big Grin]

You aren't gonna let Todd live that one down are ya? [Big Grin]

--------------------
All this has happened before, and will happen again

darmstrong Verified Driver
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When I used to race shifter karts @ CMP, we used a modified LeMans start and it worked great. We were an open wheel class, however, we gave each other enough racing room, otherwise the consequences were serious.
Dave
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For the southern folk - "It was one of them deals".

Motor City Hamilton
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I have to give Sam a little credit for having the balls to post in this thread. He sounds a bit humbled and willing to admit his part of the blame. One of the posts said that he walked over to directly apologize to some of those involved.

It looks like Sam made a bad on-track decision, but was man enough to own up to it. We learn from our mistakes, big or small.

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by d mathias:
For the southern folk - "It was one of them deals".

You mean "It was one of them there deals" [Wink]

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Jim Drago
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Wreckerboy Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Dan Tiley:
Better yet, we could do the old LeMans starts where they had to first run across pit road to get into their cars. That way we could all wreck each other before even getting into the car!

EMRA starts their enduro at Pocono in a similar fashion, but it's not the drivers who run

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Rob Myles
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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
quote:
Originally posted by d mathias:
For the southern folk - "It was one of them deals".

You mean "It was one of them there deals" [Wink]
And for the deep south folk:

"It was wun of dem dar deals"

--------------------
All this has happened before, and will happen again

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Lance Snyder:
quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
quote:
Originally posted by d mathias:
For the southern folk - "It was one of them deals".

You mean "It was one of them there deals" [Wink]
And for the deep south folk:

"It was wun of dem dar deals"

SO FUNNY, BUT SO TRUE [Big Grin]

--------------------
Jim Drago
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FastM3 Verified Driver
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What Colin and Kyle said 100 %


Bottom line.....

"WHAT WERE YOU THINKING ?"

Rant off.

It is always easy to think rationally after the incident. The difficult thing we All need to learn is..(not necessarily related to this incident at all)

Don't move over on the guy that is coming up fast.
Leave a damn car width for the Banzai idiot(could be me) and hope that he will slide off in front of you.
Don't try to squeeze a 4.5 ft wide car in a 3.75 ft hole.
Camera video looks a lot different based on the car and angle it is taken from and ALWAYS is different from what you saw real time.

Let's not hurt each other either physically or via the wallet.

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Phil
Silver 38 SM/ITA

EFoss28 Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Lance Snyder:
quote:
Originally posted by EFoss28:

leave it in reverse [Big Grin]

You aren't gonna let Todd live that one down are ya? [Big Grin]
He still won which makes it an even better story [Smile] Not many people can say they won their first two career WC Touring Car races!

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Andy Bettencourt Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Zauskycop:


Looking at the rearview mirror and realizing that P3 car was hanging back a bit...then moved over, perhaps Sam was trying to get next to the "correct" car and stay in "formation" better for the start. His qualifying spot would have put him next to the green car...right? So would the car hanging back, and offline be at fault, or would Sam for trying to achieve his correct starting spot be at fault?

...whether or not that was his intent may never be known.

This is where my contention is. Your 'spot' is not primarily NEXT to someone but it's BEHIND someone. Reference when someone does fall out of position or misses grid: you move FORWARD, even though that seems unfair.

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Andy Bettencourt
Flatout Motorsports
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[ 03-31-2010, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: guest driver ]

Jason Holland Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by EFoss28:
Standing starts are awesome!!!

Well unless you stall the car <cough> or leave it in reverse [Big Grin]

MX-5 Cup has the option for standing starts this year!

NASA used to do them once per weekend per race group. I thought that was the coolest thing ever.

I loved the standing starts but everyone started crying about tearing up their clutches and diffs.

Like that was gonna be an issue with production based cars but whatever...

--------------------
Jason Holland
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Little Bill Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by tony senese:
quote:
Originally posted by Little Bill:
Looks like a classic case of red mist to me. This is just my opinion, but the white car is entirely to blame. I would be thinking to myself if this was unfolding in front of me, you can't win it at the start a**hole. I would never want to go door to door with that guy. He absolutely drove into the side of the car to his left. There is no excuse for driving that way.

Maybe I have a different mind set, but I don't see how anyone can defend this drivers action. No one is entitled to the space that another car occupies. If someone gets a jump on you, suck it up, be a class act, and concede the position. If it is at the start, you still have the entire race to prove that you can out drive the guy

Bill,
Bite your tongue.... If you read Andrew's post right before you you will see he admits some blame, the SCCA came to the same conclusion. If a car has a mechanical and pulls to the side right before the green, what are you supposed to do? stay in line and whack him???? No you would do exactly what Sam did, go around him!

Before you go calling people names on this forum, get your facts right.

Tony we will have to agree to disagree on this one. The guy was out of line before the green even came out, then tried to force his way through. If you see it differently then I will remember to give you plenty of space if we are ever on a track together. So he takes some of the blame...what a joke. His driving is responsible for this crash period. Of course this is my opinion, but the nice thing is I am allowed that. Unlike the space that the green car occupied at the start...he wasn't allowed that space by the white car to his right, the car on the left never deviated from his line. But I guess in your world the car to the left should have yielded, hell he could have avoided the whole thing by putting 2 in the grass to his left.

Yes, mistakes happen, but you can't fix stupid. Plain in simple driver in the white car was guilty of DWHUA. If he is as good as he thinks he is he can get it done over the course of the race.

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Bill Hingston
SM#03
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RYGAR Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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DWHUA ?

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Ryan G. #29
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Greg Arsenault Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by RYGAR:
DWHUA ?

Driving With Head Up ...

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by andrew_anderson:


During the start, I was so focused on the green flag, that I neglected to pay attention to where I was on the race track. After the green was waved, I realized where I was and moved over. I didn't know, however, that Sam was right there at my rear quarter panel.


If I were a steward and I heard this, I would not want to place 100% blame on Sam either.

-bw

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
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Bruce,

I thought the same thing - until I wondered if SB had the RIGHT to be there.

Everyone knows that video "I was 7th!" Would you blame any of those cars who were warming up their tires for clobbering the RX-7 as he charged up the middle of the track?

I guess we have to determine how responsible we all are for not hitting others when they put their car in a bad spot. We have all done it, it's just so grey.

--------------------
Andy Bettencourt
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quote:
Originally posted by Lance Snyder:
quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
quote:
Originally posted by d mathias:
For the southern folk - "It was one of them deals".

You mean "It was one of them there deals" [Wink]
And for the deep south folk:

"It was wun of dem dar deals"

Or if you are from some parts of Texas ...
"I'll guarandamnteeya it was one of them racin deals" [Smash]
Rick

--------------------
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tony senese Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Little Bill:
quote:
Originally posted by Little Bill:
you can't win it at the start a**hole.

Yes, mistakes happen, but you can't fix stupid. Plain in simple driver in the white car was guilty of DWHUA. If he is as good as he thinks he is he can get it done over the course of the race.
So let me enumerate... According to you, Sam is an A**hole, stupid, and Driving with his head up his A**. Not going to agree to disagree.... I know Sam, and you don't. You are WRONG.

--------------------
Tony Senese
SM#99
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Dan Tiley Verified Driver Series Champ
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Alright, enough is enough already!

I've talked to both Sam and Andrew since CMP. They both feel horrible about the whole deal and have publically apologized to all those affected. I doubt either has had a decent's night sleep since, and getting ripped apart by people who are supposed to be their buddies helps nobody.

Let's call off the lynch mob and cut these guys a break. They're both good guys, great contributors to the SM community and do not have histories of "DWHUA". I'd hate to lose either of them at the track, and will gladly run side by side with either at my next race... although I might not run between them! [duck]

Let's please end this thread and create some new drama at Savannah.

--------------------
Dan Tiley

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Willie the Tard Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Qik Nip:
Or if you are from some parts of Texas ...
"I'll guarandamnteeya it was one of them racin deals" [Smash]
Rick

Rick, I am from Tejas and it would be "I'll guarandamnteeya it were one of them racin deals"

--------------------
William Keeling a.k.a. Willie the Tard

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quote:
Originally posted by Willie the Tard:
quote:
Originally posted by Qik Nip:
Or if you are from some parts of Texas ...
"I'll guarandamnteeya it was one of them racin deals" [Smash]
Rick

Rick, I am from Tejas and it would be "I'll guarandamnteeya it were one of them racin deals"
shouldn't that end with "I tell you what" ? [Big Grin]

--------------------
Ryan G. #29
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quote:
Originally posted by RYGAR:
quote:
Originally posted by Willie the Tard:
quote:
Originally posted by Qik Nip:
Or if you are from some parts of Texas ...
"I'll guarandamnteeya it was one of them racin deals" [Smash]
Rick

Rick, I am from Tejas and it would be "I'll guarandamnteeya it were one of them racin deals"
shouldn't that end with "I tell you what" ? [Big Grin]
maybe but it would be "I tell ya what". but it would always be "them there" I do not know how I missed that one

--------------------
William Keeling a.k.a. Willie the Tard

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Wow.. you guys said it all, called everyone on the carpet. What was the outcome? Was the guy who caused the crash executed? Sounds like thats what some wanted.

I am not from this region, don't know the parties, but care for every driver. Someone needs to take all involved into a room..after a cooling off period and have a heart to heart talk with everyone involved. I know that's the officials job, but sometimes they don't do it and you have a battle of words.

If you never made a mistake while racing and ran into someone without any intentiion, then you need to race more.

For all the rest of you who have an interest in this matter...learn by it and act accordingly.

HAPPY EASTER

--------------------
BE SAFE GO FAST HAVE FUN
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tony senese Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by racinglawyer:
If you never made a mistake while racing and ran into someone without any intentiion, then you need to race more.

+1 bigtime! ya know the whole glass houses and stones thing!!

--------------------
Tony Senese
SM#99
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quote:

"It was wun of dem dar deals"

There Yous go yous gots it!

--------------------
Glenn
Crew chief Meathead Racing, NE Region Sales Division Race Engineering, The GOLD standard in SM engines, Occasional race slave for OPM Autosports

Weekend Warrior Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Racing to Cure ALS (Lou Gehrig's Disease)

Region: WDCR
Car #: 56 "Earl"
Year : 1990, 1999 soon to be SM
Posts: 2947
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I think I heard you say that when you finally got that tire mounted..... [Big Grin]

--------------------
http://www.olsinvestfinancial.com
http://www.alsinfo.org
http://www.weekendwarriorracing.com

racinglawyer Verified Driver
Old Member

Region: NEPA
Car #: 0
Year : 1997
Posts: 343
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Tony . there is not a race that goes by I don't think about our incident....When I saw your car I was upset as everyone around Mid Ohio knows. No official had to talk to us we did it ourselves and I found a good friend as a result.

Happy Easter..hope to see you soon.

--------------------
BE SAFE GO FAST HAVE FUN
Love "the commander" Mike Cefalo

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
MegaModerator

Region: mid south
Car #: 2
Year : 1999
Posts: 4275
Status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by Motor City Hamilton:
I have to give Sam a little credit for having the balls to post in this thread. He sounds a bit humbled and willing to admit his part of the blame. One of the posts said that he walked over to directly apologize to some of those involved.

It looks like Sam made a bad on-track decision, but was man enough to own up to it. We learn from our mistakes, big or small.

+1

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
jdrago1@aol.com
2006-2007 Mid-West Division
07,09 June Sprints Champion

EAST STREET RACING

Little Bill Verified Driver
Member

Region: Colorado
Car #: 03
Year : 90
Posts: 411
Status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by Little Bill:
I would be thinking to myself if this was unfolding in front of me, you can't win it at the start a**hole.

Please don't paraphrase me Tony, yes in my opinion, at that point in time that is how he was driving.

It is one thing to make a mistake on the track in the heat of battle but he was all revved up with nowhere to go before the green even came out. It appears that he had already made up his mind that he was going to the front come hell or high water.

He may be the nicest guy in the world, but in this particular instance, he is guilty of being impatient, having tunnel vision, any many other things. The green dropped and from my point of view tunnel vision began. I don't suppose he ever thought about rolling out of the throttle a little.

I believe in cutting people slack when it's appropriate but given his pre-flag antics. I personally wouldn't and wont in this situation.

I understand we all make mistakes on the track, but this one looks like a driver imparting his will no matter what happens.

Yes my words were harsh, but so were the ramifications of his actions.

He may be the nicest guy in the world, but in this particular instance I will stand by my opinion. The fact that you have come to his defense speaks volumes about both of you, and I respect that you are defending him. However, I have to wonder if you have ever found yourself thinking what I have voiced here in this forum about another drivers action.

My words were never meant as an insult to the driver. They are however descriptive of what I think about his driving in this particular situation.

I can also say that I have been guilty of the same. I can use the words that I imparted on your friend to describe an incident that I was involved in. So I am not throwing stones just stating my opinion, recognizing that I am as fallible as the next.

The key is learning from the mistake, and not making the same mistake twice.

[ 04-01-2010, 09:31 AM: Message edited by: Little Bill ]

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Bill Hingston
SM#03
RM_Div

disquek Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Region: New England
Car #: 92
Posts: 1993
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My issue here is not with the drivers and their reactions to causing the crash. It sounds like they are stand up guys. They did the right thing after the crash.

My issue is with the stewards and their lack of action. Clearly there was some on track a** hattery here. Not taking sanctioning action tells the world that this kind of thing is business-as-usual in the SCCA.

From what I can gather from this thread, the stewards failed to act because there was no easy obvious culprit. Even if the fault was 50/50 between two people, and only one of them was protested, not sanctioning that one person is a mistake. Not to mention that the stewards can create a CSA for the other person.

I'm glad that the guys that caused this are owning up to it. It shows real character on their part.
I'd like the see the stewards do the same.

-Kyle

Jamie Tucker Series Champ

ARRC 2010 Champ

Region: CFR
Car #: 97
Year : 1990/99
Posts: 788
Status: Offline
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Damn this thread is still going? Look! Most people on here saw the videos and it is obvious that Sam (I dont no him) was not lined up as he should have been and caused a major wreck. We have all made mistakes and he was man enough to apologize to all involved. I doubt anybody would make that mistake twice so the case should be closed. If it happens again than there is a problem but until that happens give it a rest.

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2010 ARRC Champion
2010 CFR Champion
2010 instigator of the year
2010/2011 Andrew Von C Wingman

OPM AUTOSPORTS INC Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Member

Region: Atlanta
Car #: 60 65 67
Year : 1990 1999 2002
Posts: 238
Status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by disquek:
My issue here is not with the drivers and their reactions to causing the crash. It sounds like they are stand up guys. They did the right thing after the crash.

My issue is with the stewards and their lack of action. Clearly there was some on track a** hattery here. Not taking sanctioning action tells the world that this kind of thing is business-as-usual in the SCCA.

From what I can gather from this thread, the stewards failed to act because there was no easy obvious culprit. Even if the fault was 50/50 between two people, and only one of them was protested, not sanctioning that one person is a mistake. Not to mention that the stewards can create a CSA for the other person.

I'm glad that the guys that caused this are owning up to it. It shows real character on their part.
I'd like the see the stewards do the same.

-Kyle

From what I learned yesterday this case is not closed and there may still be penalties or driver reviews. Stay tuned.

--------------------
-Tom Fowler-
OPM Autosports / SMAC MEMBER
http://www.opmautosports.com

pat slattery Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Veteran Member

Region: cincy
Car #: 79
Year : 92
Posts: 1495
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If the Stewards can't find something besides it's just racin, then there isn't much need for them in the future, IMHO. What does it take to make a call?

Pat

--------------------
keeping the faith for the 1.6

Arrow Karts

Weekend Warrior Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Racing to Cure ALS (Lou Gehrig's Disease)

Region: WDCR
Car #: 56 "Earl"
Year : 1990, 1999 soon to be SM
Posts: 2947
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quote:
Originally posted by pat slattery:
What does it take to make a call?

Pat

Cojones?

--------------------
http://www.olsinvestfinancial.com
http://www.alsinfo.org
http://www.weekendwarriorracing.com

Rob Burgoon Verified Driver
Member

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quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Tucker:
We have all made mistakes and he was man enough to apologize to all involved.

Not really. I don't know him either, but that wasn't an apology.

Being sorry that cars got wrecked isn't exactly a mea cupla.

For example, I could run side by side with someone, they run out of talent and wreck on their own. I could say that I was sorry if my actions contributed to their crash damage, but tough f*ing rocks, it's legal and I'll do it again.

--------------------
It really makes my week when nobody crashes into me.

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
Gold Member

Region: Oregon
Car #: 68
Year : 91
Posts: 2359
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And Andrew's appology was better?

"I am truly sorry to everyone for what has occurred. But this is the risk that we all take whenever we get on the track." Then immediately goes on to thank his sponsors?

1 vote to lock this thread.

-bw

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Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

 
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