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Author Topic: BK's Thoughts on SM2
Butch Kummer
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I thought about titling this "Atlanta Region's Thoughts on SM2", but I was recently accused of forcing my will on others in the region so I'd like to be EXPLICIT that these reflect MY thoughts on SM2, not necessarily everyone in Atlanta Region. I'm also perfectly willing to relinquish my position as Competition Director to anyone that's willing to take it as seriously as I do.

1. I'm not going to engage in any conversations about whether or not there is parity in SM - some folks are confident any generation of Miata can win on any given day while others are equally adamant that THEIR generation of choice is at a disadvantage. I'll leave that question for others to (continue to) debate.

2. Likewise I'll not argue how many 90-97 Miatas are sitting unused and unraced in SEDiv. Is it 10, is it 100, or is it some number in between? What is NOT open for debate is that some number of people with the early cars, for whatever reason (lack of knowledge, lack of talent, lack of funds, lack of desire, whatever), have chosen to quit racing those cars.

3. Let me be clear that SM2 as we've defined it is an OPTIONAL, Atlanta Region-only class, plus SM and SM2 will run in the same group (more on this later). There are no SARRC points awarded for SM2, and there certainly are no National points involved. If you have an early car and want to continue to run heads-up with the '99+ cars, you are certainly welcome (and encouraged) to do so. And if you want to be a smart-ass, you can always put a big '2' with the red "not" logo on the back (or other signage that you might find appropriate) to express your displeasure to those that opt to run SM2. I doubt that any of them will care, but you certainly are welcome to state your opinion.

4. As far as SM2 being the death nell of SM, we are talking about ADDING cars to the run group, not subtracting anything! Last year we averaged right at 31 SMs for the three events we're talking about. If we bring five early cars out of retirement and five switch from SM to SM2 (for whatever reason), we're talking about a net gain of five cars in the group. I'm pretty sure your cars don't care what class designation is on the side of the car, you're going to race as hard as you ever did and you have more people to race with! How is that a negative? And while "splitting the class" may have killed something in karting, creating SSM actually INCREASED car count in DC Region. They now have two run groups completely dedicated to Miatas, so splitting the class certainly didn't hurt them.

5. Another advantage to adding SM2 for the ARRC by GRM is it allows guys like Drago and the Pombos to run the ARRC even if they do the Runoffs. We're also planning to run an SMX class for unrestricted '99+ cars and TBD restrictors on the MX-5 Cup cars. Those cars will be in a separate run group from SM/SM2/SSM, however.

6. Although some have suggested we split SM & SM2 to allow people to double-dip, for our next three events, SM & SM2 (and SSM, but I think it's dying a slow death here except for the ARRC) will be in the same run group. Not only would splitting SM & SM2 skew the car counts (thus ruining the statistical validity of the experiment), but I'd have to find another group of cars to run you with. You guys don't like racing with the IT guys, and they don't like racing with you either! All that said, if SM2 takes off and SM counts remain stable, we'd look at splitting the two (with appropriate groups in between) to allow double-dipping in the future.

7. Someone posted this is all an attempt to increase car counts. Yes, yes it is. Increased car counts allows us to spread event expenses (which have continued to increase despite the economy) over a larger participant base, and that in turn allows us to keep entry fees at an acceptable level. And if we were to return the ARRC to it's original premise (non-Runoffs classes), then SM wouldn't be eligible to race there. You guys really should think about things before posting.

8. There are also those that feel a need to trash Atlanta Region, perhaps in an effort to make your own events look better(?). We put on high quality events at two world-class race tracks, and yet we're willing to experiment somewhat to see if we can make them even better. Maybe that's the price you pay for letting a racer be in charge of the program? I'm also never completely satisfied with a lap time - "yes, that was a lap record, but if we could get back to the gas a fraction sooner in Seven we could take another two-tenths off". As long as you keep good records of what you changed, you can ALWAYS put it back the way it was if it's not better.

9. Finally, some of you may have seen in the June FasTrack that I have submitted my application to join the 2011 CRB. Your responses to this post will go a long way toward convincing me whether or not I want to pursue that. If you can post a rational argument for why any of my thoughts are full of sh!t I'm open to discussing things. If you choose instead to suggest my parents be friendly should they ever meet again or otherwise go off on an irrational tirade, I'll decide my future appropriately.

If you got this far, thanks for reading. I welcome your input regarding making our events even better than they already are...

Butch Kummer

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Butch, A quick and hopefully simple question.

SSM was introduced to the ATL Region as an alternative to SM for exactly the same reasons as SM2, but you are saying it is dying a slow death? So what makes SM2 any different?

I'm just concerned because it seems like you are watering down a great event (the ARRC) adding a bunch of unnecessary and probably unsubscribed classes in the "hope" that it will bring cars out. (Which SSM failed to do?)

Thanks,

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Blake Clements

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I think it has to do with bringing SM to SSM spec costs some money.

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Jim Drago
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Danny Steyn Verified Driver
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Butch

We all applaud your efforts and commitment. Just not sure that this will work out. As Blake says, and most of us predicted, SSM never got any traction in the SE, and it was supposed to be a MUCH cheaper class to run.

But as Drago pointed out, possibly it was because there was some up front costs to get the car certified SSM legal. Who knows???

We are all on board with you boosting car counts and keeping event entry fees down where possbile. Nothing wrong with that. Some events have become really expensive to attend.

I guess that there are just several of us who feel that this is not the way to go.

I suppose I am more interested in how SM car counts in the SEDiv in 2010 relate to 2009 car counts, and whether SM has fallen off more than other classes (or less). At the Road Atlanta national there were hardly any SRF's at all, yet at VIR and Sebring there were large fields.

I suspect the new approach ...."4 National events qualify you for the Runoffs" might have something to do with that....

As always, thanks for your commitment to our sport. We do all appreciate it, even if we dont often come out and say so.

--------------------
Danny
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Butch,

I understand your position on increasing car counts. I do not understand you running both classes together. This is exactly what is feared by most of the drivers I speak to in SM. Dividing the class within the class is not going to increase car entries. It will only muddy up the water, and confuse drivers and spectators. If the class runs with a different group I'll buy the car count argument. Why can't this group run with the ITA's. It makes more sense and you won't be driving a wedge between the Spec Miata purest and your new class.

Just my 2 cents,
George Munson
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For what it's worth Alex Gaines is just about to very handily win the SM SARRC championship in one of those 1.6L cars that people are leaving at home. I'd be pretty disappointed if I didn't get chance to race against him in my '99 because we've split the classes.

If his runs this year doesn't prove that 1.6L cars are competitive at all types of tracks, I don't know what does.

The Great Lakes Div made a separate class for a short time for those running Toyo's (SMT) and those who wanted "open" DOT tires. All it did was make for just another smaller group running the same speed. They might as well have made a separate class for red cars. Granted, more people left with trophies.

SCCA has way too many classes. My vote would be to not add another SM(x) class.

--------------------
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quote:
Last year we averaged right at 31 SMs
GreatLakes Div should be so lucky.

Butch Kummer
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Good. I took off a bit to watch the end of the Sonoma Cup race (I DVR'd it from Sunday) and nobody's pissed me off with their response yet! [Smile]

Blake - Why has SSM failed to gain traction? As Jim suggested, SSM as defined by NASA (which we adopted in total) requires extra money to bring the 90-93 cars to their specs. And since their primary cheerleader has retired (at least for the time being), there's no one stepping up to promote the class. From personal experience with GTA and watching the DC folks build SSM over the years, you really need someone leading the charge when bringing a new class on board. SM2 DOES have it's proponents (Bill being the most vocal) that claim there are cars collecting dust in garages, so we'll give it a chance to succeed.

Danny - car counts were down dramatically for our first two National weekends this year, and that's [edit] at least in part [end edit] due to the BoD's ill-considered decision to invite anyone that can fog a mirror to the Runoffs. After the May National (where we had 78 total National entries) I sent a pointed letter to the BoD suggesting they re-think that policy. I've since been assured by them that they'll have a proposal out for comment after the June Sprints where you actually have to outrun someone in 2011 to garner an invitation. From the informal "30,000 foot overview" I've heard, I will support it heartily and we'll continue to have two National weekends at Road Atlanta. I'll be glad to talk further about our 2011 plans after I see that proposal.

George - I tried to explain in #6 that splitting SM & SM2 into separate groups would skew the statistical results by allowing people to double-dip. Again the engineer's mentality - change only one thing and measure the results. If we put the cars into two groups and the total Miata count increases, is that due to cars coming out of the garage or from folks (or two buddies) double-dipping? The SM2 proponents say they'll again bring their cars out if we give them their own class. I want statistical data to either (a) tell them they're right or (b) suggest they come up with some other weak excuse. And again, you'll still be racing against the same folks as always (and hopefully more). Do you really care what stickers are on the side of the car?

Dan - See #1. I'm not going to argue whether a 1.6 can win against the 99s or not. I know it can, but is it worth the effort to the majority of the owners?

All - I agree this is controversial and open to debate, but obviously I believe the idea has enough merit to give it a try. The market will determine whether it's a valid concept or not. And there will be no customer surveys or focus group questionaires submitted to the SM2 owners. The only "vote" I care about is an entry fee check with their name on it.

Thank you for your input (or should that be "the car is classed appropriately"?)... [Big Grin]

BK

[ 06-22-2010, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: Butch Kummer ]

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quote:
Originally posted by Butch Kummer:
Good. I took off a bit to watch the end of

BK

Give it time.. We are in the south, most don't type that fast [Big Grin]

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Jim Drago
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"car counts were down dramatically for our first two National weekends this year, and that's directly due to the BoD's ill-considered decision to invite anyone that can fog a mirror to the Runoffs"

You make this statement like it is true. The only two classes that this had any effect on were SM and SRF. It didn't matter to any other class, since few divisions had more than 10 cars, per class, racing for points anyway. When Cendiv divided, that took away the big push for points to finish in the top ten. The numbers are down dramatically because of the economy, not the Runoffs qualification rules.

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quote:
Originally posted by Butch Kummer:
Danny - car counts were down dramatically for our first two National weekends this year, and that's directly due to the BoD's ill-considered decision to invite anyone that can fog a mirror to the Runoffs. After the May National (where we had 78 total National entries) I sent a pointed letter to the BoD suggesting they re-think that policy. I've since been assured by them that they'll have a proposal out for comment after the June Sprints where you actually have to outrun someone in 2011 to garner an invitation. From the informal "30,000 foot overview" I've heard, I will support it heartily and we'll continue to have two National weekends at Road Atlanta. I'll be glad to talk further about our 2011 plans after I see that proposal.

BK

Butch
The BoD's ill-considered decision to invite anyone that can fog a mirror to the Runoffs.

That was actually the CRB's decision, the BOD just approved it [duck] I supported it 100%, still do.
The FACTS... Run the numbers in every division except one, this rule changes nothing for anyone not in SRF or SM. In one other division it may have effected one other class. Even SM and SRF in some divisions like mine weren't effected, you run four races,finish them, you are in the Runoffs. This was nothing more than a perception issue IMO. I agree that the attendance is down, not sure if the rules change or the economy played a bigger part. We didn't even give this enough time to see what happens at the Runoffs. Hopefully more will come.
Lets face it, If we have to twist peoples arms to race, make classes equivalent to 'special Olympics' in order for them to attend, we are doomed anyway.
Jim

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Jim Drago
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Can you guess which Two Crb members read Sm.com [Eek!]

--------------------
Jim Drago
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Dear Butch....Thanks so much for your efforts and wonderful explanations...and for taking the heat for an experiment that just might work...!!! We who don't want to spend thousands of dollars to race with the 99s in a 1.6...or do the same to detune our current (old) SMs into SSMs applaud your guts...!!! I wasn't here when it started, but I'll bet Jim Daniels took some heat from the SSB and ITA boys when he started Spec Miata in the first place....So, come on guys...if it works, you'll simply have a lot of very experienced drivers with slower cars that you'll have to pass....so why don't we be positive and back Butch, the Atlanta Region, and some financially depressed guys with older cars who want to play together...?? And, if you're a good enough driver, you'll easily find a way around us...!!! The Daytona Prototypes do it all the time with the slower GT cars, and when I drove Shelbys in Europe during the 60s, we often had to pass Fiat 500s...It all works out...!!!

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Butch Kummer
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Wheel & Drago,

Granted the CRB's decision (as approved by the BoD) called people's attention to what had been happening all along, so maybe it's only perception on my part. The reality, however, is the later single Nationals (VIR was a double) in SEDiv were down dramatically from previous years and Atlanta Region lost serious money on our May event.

Not to high-jack my own thread, but I know you guys (the CRB) are talking about the upcoming proposal this weekend. If it does not require that someone score at least in the top half of their class in their division (assuming six or more participants), then Atlanta Region will host at most one National weekend in 2011. Let's bring back the prestige of earning a Runoffs invitation.

If you want to get more people to attend the Runoffs, improve the value for the time and money actually spent at the track. I understand Gomberg has taken my original "3-3-3" proposal and developed a "4-1-4" schedule that has half the groups running three qualifiers and a race in four days, a day for transistion, then the remaining twelve run groups follow suit. I understand there are contractual issues that need to be worked out with the track, but decreasing the amount of time (and money) it takes to compete is what will get more people to attend the Runoffs, not inviting everyone and their neighbor.

As with the SM2 concept, reasonable people can disagree...

BK

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Correct, it is headed back that way in some capacity. jerry Wannarka wrote about it already in his page in Fastrak.
Jim

Asfar as SM2, I agree 100% with your intentions!

--------------------
Jim Drago
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Butch,
OK, let's go back to when the top three, from each division, got an invitation. We can debate, forever, how to determine the invitation process. That, however, was not the statement on which I commented. I commented on your statement that the car counts were down "directly due" to the BOD's decision. That, simply, is not true.

wheel

Butch Kummer
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quote:
Originally posted by wheel:
Butch,
OK, let's go back to when the top three, from each division, got an invitation. We can debate, forever, how to determine the invitation process. That, however, was not the statement on which I commented. I commented on your statement that the car counts were down "directly due" to the BOD's decision. That, simply, is not true.

wheel

Wheel,

Duly noted (and admonished - I REALLY tried not to piss anyone off with my comments). I've gone back and edited my original response to Danny's post.

And yes, we can debate for a long time what the "correct" number of invitations should be to attend the Runoffs. IMO however, you should be among the "best of the best" to earn that invitation.

BK

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Back when Cendiv was one, we routinely had four or five ASedans come down to the Nationals at MAM, in August, and HPT, on Labor day. They were there for points, since there were 15 cars fighting for the top ten in Cendiv. Now, Cendiv and Great Lakes have no issue with sending the top ten, since there aren't more than ten running.
It is actually slightly harder to make the Runoffs this season, than in the past. It used to be that you needed four starts, but only three finishes. Many qualified by entering the fourth race and driving their car, or a borrowed or rented car, across the start line for the start, without any intention of actually racing.
This debate has gone on since the early days of the Runoffs, and probably will continue to be debate, no matter what method is chosen.
wheel

Butch Kummer
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And I've actually seen guys push their wounded car to the start line on Pit Road (both at Mid-Ohio and VIR, in August), then cross the line using the starter to get that fourth start.

As you say, we can (and will) continue to debate the qualification procedure forever. This year's "four starts and you're in" decree, IMO, caused people to realize just how easy it was to earn an invitation, and many folks here in SEDiv stopped entering events after the Florida Quad Nationals in January. VIR had a good turnout because it was a Double and was held before the snowbird's seasons started, plus it's a LOT shorter tow than Sebring or Homestead.

Again, once I see the BoD/CRB/ASPCA/ACLU proposal I'll make a decision on what I'll recommend to the Atlanta Region Board for our 2011 weekends.

BK

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quote:
Originally posted by Dan Tiley:
For what it's worth Alex Gaines is just about to very handily win the SM SARRC championship in one of those 1.6L cars that people are leaving at home.
If his runs this year doesn't prove that 1.6L cars are competitive at all types of tracks, I don't know what does.

Now only part of this is true, but I do agree. The top 3 in SARRC right now are AG in a 1.6, Some CHAINS guy in a 1.6L and a Kid From Miami fresh off his raft in a 1.8L 95' model. Wow top 3 are not in 99's, how can it be???

Now for the part about Gaines winning the Championship, there ain't no fat lady round here, and don't bury a Cuban before he is dead, AG will have more than a "Handful" in his quest for the SARRC championship, double points are a Bitch at the SIC!! [rolling on floor laughin]

"Roll over and Play Dead" don't work on the crew from Florida. [Big Grin] [Big Grin]

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BDR Motorsports, Autotechnik
Cliff Blanchard
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Cliffy Chains
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Now it is story time, here on the SM forum.

I have a 1.6L been in it since the beginning, built a top level 99' that finished 2nd,3rd,3rd and 4th in just 4 National events, with a kid and his raft behind the wheel.

NOW For the good part.......

My turn to drive, best I can do is Mid Pack at a DBL National both days, my first time in the car. Car has to be good, Romeo the Cuban Revolution damn sure did fine.........So I asked my friends at the AT crew, their reply, point blank.....Your slow because you "Suck". Tucker told be basically, I was the worst driver in SM and I could not sit near him at dinner till I did better. So I did another event this time, more seat time, after the end of the weekend, and some fine tuning, I was within 3/10 of the Midgets best time.

"Hurray, Cheers came from everywhere" I signed some autographs, and later that night, I was Blessed with the presence of a "High Chair King" and his merry crew, we drank lots of beer, and some Red Bull and Vodka too....

The moral of this story is "Friends dont let Friends drive slow" Thanks to all my great friends with their words of encouragement...In the end there is no Excuse for seat time, and Certainly No Need for SM2...........

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BDR Motorsports, Autotechnik
Cliff Blanchard
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Butch....Just looked at the entry list and there are more SM2s than SMs...and me and quite a few others haven't registered yet....And, all of the SMs are 99s, which I doubt Blanchard could run with at RA....

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Bill...you only have 9 cars total on Saturday and 8 on Sunday in SM and SM2! That isn't a success...

I wish the Atlanta region all the best in putting on their events. I will come up and try RA when it is cooler and would like to run Barber. No need to worry about me breaking track records, but I will have fun! My comments earlier were not meant to be against Atl region, but against SM2. I worked grid for Atl region at the runoffs 76-80 and would drive from Pensacola to work Talladega and RA whenever the Navy would give me leave.

If we were getting 60-80 car fields in SM consistently, then maybe we could look at splitting the class. Currently, that is not the case.

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Paul McLester

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Paul...We still have more than 3 weeks before the race, and folks are still holding on to their money during these hard times...including me...There will be plenty more after the end of the month....You should come too...Even though my daughter went to FSU, we're all nice to Gators up here...BTW, thanks for your service both to our country and to SCCA....Also, most of us aren't thinking about breaking records or getting trophies...I won plenty of those in my lifetime from 10 years racing in Europe when I was young, being a 3 sport athlete in high school, and being a pro angler for nearly 40 years...They just clutter up the junk boxes around the house...Butch and I are simply trying to bring in more people to race...If it works that's great...if it doesn't...we can say we tried....Thanks for your comments...We don't expect everyone to like a new idea, but we appreciate your nice manner of expressing yourself....All the best....Bill

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I have no doubt that the intentions are only to increase the car counts and not hurt SM but it is still a bad idea. I believe the car count will be down for the Atlanta race based on this split. Most of the Florida crew will not drive 9 hours each way to race against a handful of 99s. There just is not enough competition to warrant such an expense. I hope I am wrong but I think you will see more cars skip the race than you gained by adding SM2.
Butch I hope no one is wanting you to step down or anything like that. You do a great job and we are grateful; we just disagree on SM2 or any other modifications to our class.

--------------------
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Cliffy Chains
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Vanderford:
Butch....Just looked at the entry list and there are more SM2s than SMs....And, all of the SMs are 99s, which I doubt Blanchard could run with at RA....

This would strictly depend on how beers I had the night before.. [boggled] ...But rest assured I will be in SM, huntin the big dogs...... [Big Grin]

--------------------
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Cliff Blanchard
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Blake Clements Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Vanderford:
Butch....Just looked at the entry list and there are more SM2s than SMs...and me and quite a few others haven't registered yet....And, all of the SMs are 99s, which I doubt Blanchard could run with at RA....

Lets review the facts from the 2009 ARRC.

Road Atlanta ___________Joey Atterbury_______1:42.71_______10/09 ARRC

--------------------
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Butch Kummer
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Tucker:
I have no doubt that the intentions are only to increase the car counts and not hurt SM but it is still a bad idea. I believe the car count will be down for the Atlanta race based on this split. Most of the Florida crew will not drive 9 hours each way to race against a handful of 99s. There just is not enough competition to warrant such an expense. I hope I am wrong but I think you will see more cars skip the race than you gained by adding SM2.

Butch I hope no one is wanting you to step down or anything like that. You do a great job and we are grateful; we just disagree on SM2 or any other modifications to our class.

Yes, we will see. Remember (again) that SM & SM2 will be running the same race - you may be listed separately on the results but it will be the same race. For instance, at the SARRC/MARRS Challenge at VIR I raced the MARRS GTA cars just as hard as I did the SARRC GTA guys. The 'M' or the 'S' on the rear bumper meant nothing to me. Hell, it didn't even matter if they were in the same class - if they were in front of me I was going to try and pass them! [Smile]

Regarding current entries, it provides trends but over the years I've learned not to count on ANYTHING until the week of the event. We've always given full refunds for no-shows, but this year moreso than ever people are waiting until the last weekend to register.

And no, there is no pressure (at least from anyone that counts [Wink] ) for me to step down as Competition Director. I'm not tired of it yet, but ANY program can benefit from a fresh viewpoint. I just want to make sure I'm not discouraging anyone from expressing an interest if they want it.

BK

--------------------
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Thanks Butch!!!

--------------------
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quote:
Originally posted by Blake Clements:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Vanderford:
Butch....Just looked at the entry list and there are more SM2s than SMs...and me and quite a few others haven't registered yet....And, all of the SMs are 99s, which I doubt Blanchard could run with at RA....

Lets review the facts from the 2009 ARRC.

Road Atlanta ___________Joey Atterbury_______1:42.71_______10/09 ARRC

He addressed that in the other thread basically insinuating that the car was cheated up and the next one that came through and ran that time would be caught...

Dan Tiley Verified Driver Series Champ
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Perhaps this is the SM, SM2, SM3, SMx solution... Everyone's a winner! Works for my 7 year old nephew's soccer league.

 -

Sorry Butch... just playin' a little. You know we appreciate all you do [thumbsup]

--------------------
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Alex....I never insinuated that at all...!!! I came back and said that I haven't seen anyone ever in a 1.6 prepare, set-up, draft, or drive better than Pombo Racing and the two Pombo brothers...!!! Their history goes all the way back to racing Model Ts in Mexico City...Pepe was the 250cc motorcycle champion of Mexico before he came to the States...and a 4 time SCCA Champion driving for Nissan...Since they started in 1/4 midgets and Legends cars as pre-teens, Mat and Mark Pombo have won more championships than you can count...and are some of the nicest people you will ever meet..SO, I NEVER SAID OR INSINUATED THAT THEY CHEAT...!!!!

--------------------
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Butch,

Sorry for the late reply, that work thing got in the way. The answer to your question is "Yes" it matters to me what decals are on the cars. It gets real heated in the SARRC Series and wondering if the car in front of you is in your class or not is not something I want to worry about. With the two groups running together you have still just divided the class. Something a lot of us having been fighting for years. I still support the need to expand, to increase your bottom line but not this way. You have actually put people in a position of not showing up because even running just SM you show support for the split.

Just my 2 cents,
George Munson

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Mildly related - why are national entry fees significantly more than regional entry fees (at least in my Division)?

Same track, same volunteers, similar track time... what adds to the cost?

Personal opinion: it ain't parity or lack thereof, or the evil 99s, that keeps me away from Nationals/Runoffs. It's that I can't justify the expense to be a field-filler. Maybe the SCCA could have an also-ran fund (kinda like a tow fund).

Blake Clements Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Vanderford:
Alex....I never insinuated that at all...!!! I came back and said that I haven't seen anyone ever in a 1.6 prepare, set-up, draft, or drive better than Pombo Racing and the two Pombo brothers...!!! Their history goes all the way back to racing Model Ts in Mexico City...Pepe was the 250cc motorcycle champion of Mexico before he came to the States...and a 4 time SCCA Champion driving for Nissan...Since they started in 1/4 midgets and Legends cars as pre-teens, Mat and Mark Pombo have won more championships than you can count...and are some of the nicest people you will ever meet..SO, I NEVER SAID OR INSINUATED THAT THEY CHEAT...!!!!

I think you missed the point of Alex's post.

We are saying by Joey Atterbury's TRACK RECORD at ROAD ATLANTA from the ARRC that 1.6s CAN and DO run with 99s.

--------------------
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Vanderford:
Alex....I never insinuated that at all...!!! I NEVER SAID OR INSINUATED THAT THEY CHEAT...!!!!

Bill
While you didnt come out and say it, your sure did imply it.
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Vanderford:
Jim...I have no doubts that the record will fall...it just won't be with a legal 1.6....!!!!
[/QB]

If one legal car did it, why couldnt another?

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
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Jim...I guess if you have the same kind of team and drivers that you and the Pombos have....anything is possible....What I'm saying is that the Pombos, you guys, and most of the other good teams have gone to running 99s....Therefore, I don't believe that some private owner will run like that again with a 1.6....Also, I know how hard the Pombos worked and how much they spent trying to (LEGALLY) get every once of power and set-up in those 1.6s (as I know yall did at the time)....All of their energy is now concentrated on making the 99s more competitive...as I'm sure yours is...Sorry if I put a bee in your bonnet...Since I've raced with you guys lots of times, I know very well how good your cars and drivers are, and I have always had lots of respect for your operation...In fact, you have often answered questions for me that were extremely helpful...So, please don't look at me as an enemy...I'll always be a freind...All the best,

Bill

--------------------
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quote:
Originally posted by d mathias:
Mildly related - why are national entry fees significantly more than regional entry fees (at least in my Division)?

Same track, same volunteers, similar track time... what adds to the cost?

Personal opinion: it ain't parity or lack thereof, or the evil 99s, that keeps me away from Nationals/Runoffs. It's that I can't justify the expense to be a field-filler. Maybe the SCCA could have an also-ran fund (kinda like a tow fund).

Higher sanction fees from the SCCA head office.

--------------------
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Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Vanderford:
Jim...I guess if you have the same kind of team and drivers that you and the Pombos have....anything is possible....What I'm saying is that the Pombos, you guys, and most of the other good teams have gone to running 99s....Therefore, I don't believe that some private owner will run like that again with a 1.6....Also, I know how hard the Pombos worked and how much they spent trying to (LEGALLY) get every once of power and set-up in those 1.6s (as I know yall did at the time)....All of their energy is now concentrated on making the 99s more competitive...as I'm sure yours is...Sorry if I put a bee in your bonnet...Since I've raced with you guys lots of times, I know very well how good your cars and drivers are, and I have always had lots of respect for your operation...In fact, you have often answered questions for me that were extremely helpful...So, please don't look at me as an enemy...I'll always be a freind...All the best,

Bill

Bill
You are reading too much into this..
I did get that impression from your post, as did others. I am not mad at you,Butch or anyone else. I know what you and Butch are trying to do, I agree with getting more people out. I disagree with splitting the class. While I respectfully disagree, I am not mad at anyone. As Butch said above.. rational people can disagree.

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
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2006-2007 Mid-West Division
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quote:
Higher sanction fees from the SCCA head office.
But why is that? Because they can?

Butch Kummer
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quote:
Originally posted by d mathias:
Mildly related - why are national entry fees significantly more than regional entry fees (at least in my Division)?

Same track, same volunteers, similar track time... what adds to the cost?

At least here in SEDiv, we have fewer cars at a National weekend than at a regional (SARRC) weekend. Fewer cars = more cost per car to pay the same expenses.

And while insurance, track rental, ambulance, and other fixed costs are the same, there are a couple of expenses for a National weekend that are not required for a Regional:
. higher initial sanction fee (mentioned already)
. $15/car Runoffs travel fund

The GCR also mandates that we provide at least 45 minutes of track time per group prior to the (generally) longer National race. This makes it possible to schedule a double regional over a two-day weekend (which contributes to a higher car count) while it is virtually impossible to do a Double National in a two-day weekend.

BK

--------------------
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Jim...Thanks for your response...I'm happy that we are still friends...

Best,

Bill

--------------------
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Cliffy Chains
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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
Bill
You are reading too much into this..
I did get that impression from your post, as did others. I am not mad at you,Butch or anyone else. I know what you and Butch are trying to do, I agree with getting more people out. I disagree with splitting the class. While I respectfully disagree, I am not mad at anyone. As Butch said above.. rational people can disagree.

Big Daddy-D, well said!!! No one is mad here, we voice our opinions here, openly, is all.

I too disagree with splitting the class, I think that everyone would like to see higher car counts, and discussions like this get alot of people to join in the forum posts, that usually don't, Great topic..

I for one think that half naked trophy girls would increase car counts, can we try it????? [Big Grin]

--------------------
BDR Motorsports, Autotechnik
Cliff Blanchard
Down on power 1.6
Sluggish overweight 99'

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I really think that the solution to higher car counts is more in encouraging the drivers at all levels rather than splitting the levels.

Racing is racing and some people will always want to be at the top, some people are happy just racing whoever their closest competition is, and some will move from one camp to the other at varying times.

Keep whoever is willing to race encouraged. Help them out. Listen to them rant about their awesome race wherever it was in the pack. Make them feel included, not as an "also ran". If you're one of the elite, remember it's the non-elite that makes the biggest part of the group.

The last race I watched from the sidelines. I was more excited for the friend pumping his fist crossing the line because after 30 mins he beat his close competitor than the actual race win itself. For a lot of the drivers and people in the stands, it's more about the races within the race.

There is a big part of most race weekends that isn't actually in the car racing. That part of the weekend is a ton of fun for a lot of people sharing their war stories and wanting to get better...go faster. That is the cheapest and easiest part of the racing to promote.

I do a little teaching sporty car drivers at club days and people who are actually willing to listen are thrilled at the end of the day when I can actually help make them drive faster with better control. That's tons of fun for me to see someone so excited to learn how to drive the course faster. I myself find it intimidated to ask the local hot shoes for advice sometimes. They're busy trying to win and I feel like a schmuck. I'm continually thrilled when they listen to my issue, advise me, and I wind up driving faster and smoother.

When you're a beginner, going faster makes you feel a hell of a lot better. There are ups and downs and most of us have them. It doesn't always occur to the less experienced that every day won't always be better than the last. It's good to hear when you're having a bad day that it's pretty normal even when it seems obvious to everyone around you. It doesn't seem obvious when you're new and having a really bad day.

If you want to keep a big class, make people feel part of the class. Help them out. Keep them motivated. Help them see that it's great fun racing even when it's not for the win. Let them know that it's not all about car parity and that there really is a hell of a lot of driving involved, and not everyone got there overnight so don't get a bruised ego. It's not always an easy lesson to learn if you're good at something else and don't bust into SM as a phenom.

Paddock together. Have BBQs. Get to know one another. Racers are some fun SOBs. It's too much money and time not to have fun so help people have their fun.

The biggest curse is people thinking they have to spend money out the ying yang and be at the top level prep to have a good time. If you want more participation, make it easy to participate at whatever level people are at in the same class.

--------------------
Keith Novak
(Will work for tires)

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Well said Keith!

--------------------
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quote:
I for one think that half naked trophy girls would increase car counts
You're half right. [Big Grin]

d mathias Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Just spit-balling here, but all NASA races are 'national' and they are all double, sometimes triple, events. I know I'll get multiple reasons why this won't worked for the SCCA, but in the GreatLakes area guess which sanctioning body typically gets higher SM car counts [scratchchin]

FWIW - I still prefer racing in the SCCA. [thumbsup]

-Denny

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quote:
Originally posted by Cliffy Chains:
quote:
Originally posted by Dan Tiley:
For what it's worth Alex Gaines is just about to very handily win the SM SARRC championship in one of those 1.6L cars that people are leaving at home.
If his runs this year doesn't prove that 1.6L cars are competitive at all types of tracks, I don't know what does.

Now only part of this is true, but I do agree. The top 3 in SARRC right now are AG in a 1.6, Some CHAINS guy in a 1.6L and a Kid From Miami fresh off his raft in a 1.8L 95' model. Wow top 3 are not in 99's, how can it be???

Now for the part about Gaines winning the Championship, there ain't no fat lady round here, and don't bury a Cuban before he is dead, AG will have more than a "Handful" in his quest for the SARRC championship, double points are a Bitch at the SIC!! [rolling on floor laughin]

"Roll over and Play Dead" don't work on the crew from Florida. [Big Grin] [Big Grin]

I fully expect a good fight at the SIC. I may even venture down to FL for a Homestead or Sebring race. I can't let you guys have all the fun.

--------------------
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Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by d mathias:
quote:
I for one think that half naked trophy girls would increase car counts
You're half right. [Big Grin]
Good one! [Big Grin]

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
jdrago1@aol.com
2006-2007 Mid-West Division
07,09 June Sprints Champion

EAST STREET RACING

Dan Tiley Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Cliffy Chains:
Now only part of this is true, but I do agree. The top 3 in SARRC right now are AG in a 1.6, Some CHAINS guy in a 1.6L and a Kid From Miami fresh off his raft in a 1.8L 95' model. Wow top 3 are not in 99's, how can it be???

Now for the part about Gaines winning the Championship, there ain't no fat lady round here, and don't bury a Cuban before he is dead, AG will have more than a "Handful" in his quest for the SARRC championship, double points are a Bitch at the SIC!! [rolling on floor laughin]

"Roll over and Play Dead" don't work on the crew from Florida. [Big Grin] [Big Grin]

Good point... it's easy for us Northern-SARRCers to forget about the Southern-SARRCers battling it out in Florida. I look forward to seeking out Cuban singing fat ladies at the SIC!

--------------------
Dan Tiley

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