Spec Miata Community   
search | help | calendar | games | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hello Spec Miata Community » Sports Car Club of America » SCCA South-East » SM Driver Input Needed for ECR Rule Changes

 - Email this page to someone! | Subscribe To Topic  
Author Topic: SM Driver Input Needed for ECR Rule Changes
Gatoratty Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Member

Region: Central Florida
Car #: 3
Year : 1992
Posts: 1304
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Gatoratty     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

There is currently a proposal to include ITO cars in the ECR series for the 2011 season and discussions to reduce the length (time) of ECR's to allow regions to run a 45 minute ECR.

SM entries make up over half of the entries so far this year and deserve to be heard before the SEDIV meeting on the 24th of this month.

ITO includes the following cars:

6. Competition vehicles from the following Touring type series are allowed to compete in ITO:

•Corvette Challenge prepared to 1999 or earlier rules
•Grand Am GS: Koni and Continental Tire Challenge
•IMSA Firehawk GrandSport & Touring
•Mustang Challenge
•NASA American Iron (with minimum weight/hp = 9.5:1)
•NASA CMC & CMC2
•NASA Factory Five Challenge
•SCCA ITGT (Improved Touring GT)
•World Challenge GT prepared to 1999 or earlier rules

This is a predominantly V-8 class that will run with the rest of the IT cars and SM's.

Do you want to be on track in an ECR with this class?

--------------------
Paul McLester

John A - 5X Racing Verified Driver
www.5xracing.com

Region: NASA FL / CFR SCCA
Car #: 25
Year : 1991
Posts: 374
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for John A - 5X Racing   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

NO! I've been on track with GT cars in my SM, and although it is flattering to corner faster then a 150K race car in some cases, the closing speeds are downright scary on long straits. A World Challenge GT car catching you going into turn one of Daytona would be a little rattling to say the least... It wouldn't be the end of the world though, I can only imagine one of these cars showing up every once in a while as there are not too many of them campaigning regionally.

45 minutes is easier on wear and tear, but it is not really too much longer than a 30 minute SARRC, and with a 5 minute pit stop it would only be 10 minutes longer. The 1 1/2 hour race is cool, and it seems that people keep a more level head knowing that they have 1 1/2 hours instead of trying to win the race in the first turn as has happened in the sprint races.

My opinion of course. Let me know where and when to submit it Paul.

--------------------
John Adamczyk

Owner: 5X Racing Online Race Shop
Driver: Team 5X Racing #25 Spec Miata
NASA FL Race Director
Race Engineering Powered 1.6

Jamie Tucker Series Champ

ARRC 2010 Champ

Region: CFR
Car #: 97
Year : 1990/99
Posts: 788
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Jamie Tucker     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

If ITO is allowed or the ECR is 45 minutes I can guarantee you that half of the Miatas that currently run in it will not bother. For one no one wants to be out there with those big ass cars and secondly most people enjoy sharing their cars with other drivers so 45 minutes is not long enough. That type of run group is why NASA has very few cars in SM. Of course they did have an all SM run group at the last Sebring race and had more cars then they had before. Just leave it the way it is. Besides, those ITO drivers are not real racers anyway. If they were they would not have let their egos get the best of them and would have bought a SM!!

--------------------
2010 ARRC Champion
2010 CFR Champion
2010 instigator of the year
2010/2011 Andrew Von C Wingman

Chris Fulton
Member

Region: CFR
Car #: #38
SMIM: gepipe@rocketmail.com
Posts: 56
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Chris Fulton   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

I like the 1.5 hr races, any less and it would seem like a sprint race.

I vote no on the big fast ITO cars. We don't need them in our enduros.

TaxMan Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Willing to trade tax advice for Miata parts...

Region: Florida Region
Car #: 7
SMIM: TaxMan
Posts: 1085
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for TaxMan   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

I am not in favor of adding the ITO cars to the races. However I am much stronger in my opposition to shortening the races.

Is responding to this thread official input or should we be emailing the ECR committee?

Thanks.

--------------------
Gary Jenkins
SEDIV Spec Miata Advisory Committe
AOL IM:PBLRacing

Mark McCallister Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Just graduated from novice to rookie!!

Region: Central Florida
Car #: 40
Year : 1991
Posts: 393
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Mark McCallister     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

ABSOLUTELY NO to shortening the races! There are a million SARRCs and regional sprint races to run for people who like short races.

In fact I would vote for extending them to 120 minutes and allowing championship points for up to TWO drivers per race. The 65 minute CFR enduros are entirely too short. Consumables (and crash) expense gets a lot less intimidating when two people are sharing expenses...

I would also like to see a separate 15 minute practice session before qualifying at ECRs, so both drivers can get some practice time in at a new track before the race.

Most ECR fields I have been in have been huge, I don't think there's any reason to add ITOs and make it difficult (and less safe) for drivers in both classes.

Jim Creighton
Member

Posts: 106
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Jim Creighton     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

I now have on my ECR Committee hat and any comments made are concerning ECR, not SARRC. SARRC is healthy and doesn't need fixin'.

Not sure where the 45 minutes came from but I've not seen that proposal. I did ask if the Committee was interested in reducing the time to 1 hour plus the 5 minute pit stop. So far, it's an overwhelming NO so that's off the table. We will continue with 1.5 hour minimum races.

Now, on to ITO. You need to look at the weights of the currently allowed ITR cars and some of the heavier ITA cars. They are exactly the same as the ITO cars. The heaviest ITR car is 3465 lbs while the heaviest ITA car is 3000lbs. At Roebling Road at the Double/Double, the SM times and the ITO times were close. The fastest SARRC SM qualifier was .1 seconds slower than the fastest ITO car. However, the fastest ITR car was over 2 seconds faster than both ITO & SM.

And as for the ECR entry numbers, they are not very good this year. We are averaging less than 30 cars per race. At Roebling Road, we could have started 55 cars but only started 31 in the ECR.

In addition, several Regions have been including ITO as a non ECR points class in their ECR races. Both Florida Region & NCR have included them and neither has indicated that they have had any problems with the ITO cars. If any of you raced the Florida Region or North Carolina Region ECR, you were on track with ITO cars. For the past several years, Atlanta Region has included ITO in the ARRC Enduro. Thus, this is not untested.

The one thing that would help ECR is if Central Florida Region would rejoin the series. The CFR races were always some of the biggest. And this year, Atlanta Region also did not include ECR in their schedule. However, Atlanta has agreed to make the Sunday afternoon ARRC 3.0 hour race an ECR so they are on the calendar for 2011.

Yes, Paul is right about SM accounting nearly half of the ECR entries so far in 2010 because he saw an email in which I quoted the exact entry for 2010. However, the entire series has less than 200 entries for the first 7 races this year.
We need to get some additional entries or the Regions are not going to conduct ECR races. The ITO guys have indicated they want to run ECR's.

If ITO is approved, it will be on a one year conditional basis.

Of course, if someone has an idea on how to get more entries at ECR races, I'd be glad to hear it. BTW, ECR is maxed out on track time so additional track time, practice, longer races just can't happen when you are a support series. And the stand alone ECR's we tried were a big failure.

And I again remind all of you drivers in Central Florida Region that like ECR races, your Region did not sanction an ECR this year. I suggest you contact your governor and your new RE and tell them you want ECR back.

ECR is a fun place for drivers to get track time and share expenses with a co driver. If I thought ITO was going to ruin the races, I would never suggest the addition of the class. These drivers also want a place to race enduros. Hopefully, you guys will let them join you and have fun.

--------------------
Jim Creighton
SARRC Administrator

Jarhead Made Donation to Website
Member

Region: 34
Car #: 89,90
Year : 1999
Posts: 123
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Jarhead     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

+1 for everything Jim Creighton stated.

--------------------
Problem Solved/ReelScreensSE/RE Power

Gatoratty Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Member

Region: Central Florida
Car #: 3
Year : 1992
Posts: 1304
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Gatoratty     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

This was not meant to be the official input. The RE of each region is the only person who has a vote in this matter at the SEDIV meeting on the 24th. You need to contact or email your RE with your thoughts. My concern is that most of the major incidents in the past year have occurred when we have cars that are fast down the straight and park in the corner mixed with Spec Miatas. the start at watkins Glen is a good example. Jim actually stated this case with explaining that the ITO lap times are within .1 sec at the pointy end. How about at the middle and rear of the field. My concern is that when SM makes up over half of your field and you already have low car counts.....wouldn't you care about what the SM drivers think? Yes I did see the emails and the total lack of concern for the SM drivers as I pointed out in the Roebling thread. Sorry 28 yrs in the Navy so I know what a Jarhead is....just not who you are? [yep]

--------------------
Paul McLester

d mathias Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Member

Region: OVR
Car #: 88
Year : 1991
Posts: 2401
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for d mathias     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

I'm not really warm and fuzzy about mixing high HP cars with SM but I wouldn't call it a deal breaker. 90 minute races are what attract me, any shorter and it's just a longer sprint race.

Wasn't the SE Div forcing their SM tire rule on CFR that was one of the sticking points? I vote open tires for SM in the ECR.

Also I want to go back to Charlotte Motor Speedway (never could get use to calling it Lowes). June Jammin!

-Denny

John A - 5X Racing Verified Driver
www.5xracing.com

Region: NASA FL / CFR SCCA
Car #: 25
Year : 1991
Posts: 374
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for John A - 5X Racing   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Tucker:
If ITO is allowed or the ECR is 45 minutes I can guarantee you that half of the Miatas that currently run in it will not bother. For one no one wants to be out there with those big ass cars and secondly most people enjoy sharing their cars with other drivers so 45 minutes is not long enough. That type of run group is why NASA has very few cars in SM. Of course they did have an all SM run group at the last Sebring race and had more cars then they had before. Just leave it the way it is. Besides, those ITO drivers are not real racers anyway. If they were they would not have let their egos get the best of them and would have bought a SM!!

A bit off topic, but 45 minute races with NASA FL are a thing of the past, they were a bit weird as they were too long to set up for a sprint race and too short for an enduro. I ran out of gas in the one that I did! They also ran it together with all race cars in one group, which is how I know that I didn't like being out there with GT cars and super fast strait-a-way cars.

Just to clarify, NASA FL has changed their grouping format to match NASA SE with the "thunder (big bore cars)" and "lightning (small bore cars, sm included)". Also, the race formats have changed to be like NASA SE or like an SCCA Double SARRC weekend: two 30 minute points races per weekend each with their own 20 minute qualifying session. We even got them to add a 15 minute practice on saturday morning. This format works well and is universally loved by just about everybody.

Pardon the interruption. Thanks.

--------------------
John Adamczyk

Owner: 5X Racing Online Race Shop
Driver: Team 5X Racing #25 Spec Miata
NASA FL Race Director
Race Engineering Powered 1.6

Danny Steyn Verified Driver
Member

Region: SE
Car #: 39
Year : 1999
Posts: 835
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Danny Steyn   Author's Homepage     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Jim and Butch - as an avid fan of ECR's (and please excuse my absence this year - diminishing budget used for nationals), I LOVE the 1-1/2 hour format, would hate to see it shortened, and would also like to see some lengthened to the 2-3 hour range.

My agenda in my first two years of racing was to get as much track time as I could for my $$$$, so I raced every ECR I could, and I absolutely believe the series made me a way better driver - do not shorten the races.

With regard to the higher horsepower cars:- I dont really have a problem with them in an ECR. It is part of the series and we have to deal with it. Dealing with and ITA / ITS cars that blaze down the straights and park in the corners is something that you have to work out in the race, and in a long race there are many ways to deal with this, including pit stop timing. And after several laps of banging bumpers in the turns, most drivers figure out a way to live together on the track and find a faster way to work together. In a 1-1/2 hour race you have time to figure it out.

(My problem is on the national level, with the small groups of strung out T3/SSB/SSC cars absolutely destoying the racing for the overwhelmingly large and very competitive SM class in a 45 minute sprint where there is no time to recover from an idiot slowing you up in a couple of corners - but that is another thread)

PS - if any of you guys ever get to run STU, you will find out that there are many cars that are not only 50mph faster down the straight, but many are faster in the corners too, and its a good lesson for us SM drivers to learn how to get out of the way in the corners for faster cars, something that we are definitely not used to.

--------------------
Danny
http://www.dannysteyn.com
http://www.adeptstudios.com
OPM Autosports | Traqmate | Rossini Racing Engines
2010 June Sprints Champ, 2010 ARRC SMX Champ
2009 SARRC Champ, 2009 SEDiv ECR Champ, 2009 FES Champ
2008 SEDiv ECR Champ

Gatoratty Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Member

Region: Central Florida
Car #: 3
Year : 1992
Posts: 1304
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Gatoratty     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

I am not sure what the lack of response from more drivers indicates for the ECR series. I believe that there has been some some discussion regarding the CFR returning to the ECR series.

--------------------
Paul McLester

Z-MAN Verified Driver
Member

Region: Mid-South
Car #: 54
Year : 1990
Posts: 711
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Z-MAN     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

Ok I think it is important to talk about the potential of these cars and not what you might see right now. If you open this up to 1999 World Challenge cars you will be running with cars that are capable of very high speeds. What happens when guys in well prepped cars that can drive really well show up and start running lap times that are super low?

For example cars being considered would be 1999 World Challenge GT cars Like the Viper of Bobby Archer, the BMW M3 of Kermet Upton and the Corvette of Bill Cooper. I saw a race at Road Atlanta in 1999 where these guys fought it out, these cars were running times around 1:35... And this was with the turn 10 A-B in place (1998).

So, To say that these cars are close in lap times is Hogwash... NO WAY... NO HOW... There is NO WAY I want to be anywhere on a track with one of these beasts in my SM...

You might not be seeing them right now but you put on a 3 hour ECR at Road Atlanta in 2011 and allow ITO cars you will have some very fast Corvettes, Vipers, 911s and so on...

Allow ITO Cars and you could get someone killed... And it won't be a guy in a car that had to be able to withstand a crash at 150MPH. It will be a guy in a Honda CRX or a Miata (that they built in their garage) crushed between A wall and big Viper or Corvette...

Not me... One big V8 in the race and I'm out...

It's hard enough getting used to having to deal with the higher straight line speeds of the cars in our run group that don't have anyone in their own class to race so they want to race the SM's... Can't stand that already...


MZ

John Rucker Verified Driver
Member

Region: Central FLorida 083
Car #: 45
Year : 1990
Posts: 60
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for John Rucker     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

I vote NO as well. Mixing cars with that much difference in speed may work fine in the pro ranks but not in club; expecially with so many new inexperienced drivers. We would be setting ourselves up for dangereous situations for sure.

Z-MAN Verified Driver
Member

Region: Mid-South
Car #: 54
Year : 1990
Posts: 711
Status: Offline
Icon 1 posted  Profile for Z-MAN     Edit/Delete Post  Report this post to a Moderator

I was thinking if they wanted to get more guys to run in cars that are similar in size and HP they could invite the "Prod" and GTL group but then I realized they would never finish a 3 hour race... They'd be all blowed up by the first pit stop [Razz] Oiling down the track and causing all kinds of yellow flags to pull them out of the way... So on second thought that's not a good idea either...

In this economy it's rough all over, if the series can make it through this season the numbers should be back.

MZ [Razz]

   

   Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic | Subscribe To Topic
Hop To: