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Author Topic: WINTER RUNOFFS - Sebring Double National
Danny Steyn Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by d mathias:
quote:
this still goes back to the old universal you can't win a race at turn one on the first lap.
My 1/2 assed, wasn't there, watched it on TV opinion is the T3 cars had nothing to do with the crashing. The same result could have occurred in SM-only group. Too many cars - not enough real estate.
Denny
I was there in the front SM car - I had to lift to make sure I didnt T-bone the Honda. Drago couldnt see that as he was making his move. Bad timing for him, but if the Honda wasnt there he wouldnt have hit me.

Also concur with Blake - I suspect the acclerate-decelerate wouldnt have happened.

--------------------
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Danny thanks for posting your video but I have to say I believe you and a few others were responsible for the crash in turn 1. Although this start is really no different then what we have seen time and time again it seems to me that you, Chip, and others laid back in order to time the start and pass the leader prior to turn one. Is that illegal, probably not but it is low class racing in my opinion. You and others were clearly moving faster then Andrew when the green flag came out and therefor easily passed him at the start finish. You could have just as easily stayed behind the poll sitter who was clearly faster then you were. That goes for everybody that was behind the front row. Once again we see drivers trying to win the race at the start even though it was a 30 minute plus race. What is even worse is that with the exception of the top 4 or 5 the others had no shot at winning the race yet here they come right to the front in turn 1. Then add a couple t3 cars and BOOM! If drivers are not going to respect those that qualified better then they did and just force situations that will only result in crashes then we should just skip qualifying altogether and just draw straws, roll some dice, or engage in midget tossing. As I have said before, I am not sure what the stewards could do about it (maybe nothing) but we as a class should get this under control with or without them. I am not trying to piss anybody off but at a National level race with the talent of the drivers in the field I would have thought there would have been more give then take at the start. Again I could be completely out of line and wrong (would not be the first time) but that is how I feel.
JT

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quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Tucker:
You could have just as easily stayed behind the poll sitter who was clearly faster then you were. That goes for everybody that was behind the front row.

So Jamie, we have this thing in NASA called Time Trial..... [Wink] [Big Grin] [Razz]

--------------------
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Danny,

I agree that there *should* have been a larger gap between the two T3 cars and the sixty SMs.

quote:
we should just skip qualifying altogether and just draw straws, roll some dice, or engage in midget tossing.
I would support that. [Big Grin]

Danny Steyn Verified Driver
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Jamie, I consider you a friend and I am fine that you see it differently.

Feel free to be specific on what I did wrong.

I consider this thread in the intests of the community - not an attack by you on me or anyone else

You are also comfortable namimg me as one of the causes of the mess, so please feel free to name the others that you think caused this accident.

Jamie - also note tha I am OK with the way I handled my start. Look at the video again.

When catastrophic events occur, it is normally the combination of several small and seemingly insignificant events all conspiring at the same time to create the disaster.

In your reply, by ommission you are absolving Andew of any blame. Does Andrew consider himself blameless? Andrew?

Andrew clearly accelerates and then decelerates - does not keep a constant speed, and this creates a gap between himself and the cars behind him, and reduces the gap between him and the T3 cars.

Had he not accelerated the gap would not have been there, I accelerate to close the gap.

I mash the gas at the exact time Bolanos hits it - very evident from the video. I am inline behind Andrew at the start.

--------------------
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Tucker:
Danny thanks for posting your video but I have to say I believe you and a few others were responsible for the crash in turn 1. Although this start is really no different then what we have seen time and time again it seems to me that you, Chip, and others laid back in order to time the start and pass the leader prior to turn one. Is that illegal, probably not but it is low class racing in my opinion. You and others were clearly moving faster then Andrew when the green flag came out and therefor easily passed him at the start finish. You could have just as easily stayed behind the poll sitter who was clearly faster then you were. That goes for everybody that was behind the front row. Once again we see drivers trying to win the race at the start even though it was a 30 minute plus race. What is even worse is that with the exception of the top 4 or 5 the others had no shot at winning the race yet here they come right to the front in turn 1. Then add a couple t3 cars and BOOM! If drivers are not going to respect those that qualified better then they did and just force situations that will only result in crashes then we should just skip qualifying altogether and just draw straws, roll some dice, or engage in midget tossing. As I have said before, I am not sure what the stewards could do about it (maybe nothing) but we as a class should get this under control with or without them. I am not trying to piss anybody off but at a National level race with the talent of the drivers in the field I would have thought there would have been more give then take at the start. Again I could be completely out of line and wrong (would not be the first time) but that is how I feel.
JT

I was there I watched the entire thing happen in front of me.

Did you watch the same video I just watched?

This is really pretty simple. Just to stay in a column of two's the outside row needs to be going faster than the inside row at Sebring to traverse the last turn side by side. The start on the first race was just as the leaders formed coming out of the last turn. It was in virtually the same place on day two except the T3 cars were in front. Prior to the exit of the last turn Andrew over accelerated closing the gap on the T3 cars and subsequently increasing the interval of each car behind him in his row. Andrew had to slow down to stay in line while each of the cars behind him did as they should attempting to close the gap Andrew created while staying in line. When the green flag came out the interval of the cars in Andrews row was shrinking due the greater MPH of each of the cars behind him. Thus they EASILY legally fanned out and passed the leader. The pole sitter (in this case for SM Andrew) controls the pace. While there was an agreement to "let the T3 cars go", it was up to Andrew to lead the SM field and decide that interval. He chose to close the gap and unfortunately for him and others it looks like that was a poor choice. I don't blame Andrew or anyone else, but claiming that others drivers should stay behind him after the green because he was a faster qualifier is just another one of your rants where you continue to drink the Kool-Aid and regurgitate one sided falsities.

--------------------
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Danny Steyn Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Tucker:
but it is low class racing in my opinion. JT

Jamie - this is the only issue I have with your post. As Andrew and I agreed to each other on our call on Monday, the only way either of us would ever want to win a race is "heads up racing".

No dirty moves, no bumping anyone off. Not by cheating, not by protesting etc.

I believe I conduct myself fairly on the race course. I race aggressively and try my best to capitalize on mistakes made by others. I try not to make stupid moves (I have certainly made some and paid the price). When I have made a stupid move I will always go and find that person and aplogize.

If you see it differently, and you feel that I race "low class" I would appreciate it if you would come and talk to me about it and help me understand what I did wrong and how I can improve my class of racing.

I am sure you would appreciate the same in return. Your friend, Danny

--------------------
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fishguyaz
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Tucker:
The pole sitter (in this case for SM Andrew) controls the pace.

as a member of "the peanut gallery" I cant really comment about the race, i wasnt there, and a cant see the event on dannys video too well, but the pole sitter does in fact control the pace, and the gap on a split start.
jamie, if the polesitter were to make a mistake, say something like missing a shift, should everyone else back off?
i see this as similiar.


bummer this happened.

I would have thought that 60 SM cars would warrant a dedicated run group: period

didnt anyone get a group of the SM drivers together and make an strong effort not to have any other classes mixed in with them?
i would blame that (choice, by the drivers/steward) as the cause.

sorry, but to me 60 cars in any class mandates a dedicated run group.

[ 01-13-2011, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: fishguyaz ]

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quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Tucker:
Danny thanks for posting your video but I have to say I believe you and a few others were responsible for the crash in turn 1. Although this start is really no different then what we have seen time and time again it seems to me that you, Chip, and others laid back in order to time the start and pass the leader prior to turn one. Is that illegal, probably not but it is low class racing in my opinion. You and others were clearly moving faster then Andrew when the green flag came out and therefor easily passed him at the start finish. You could have just as easily stayed behind the poll sitter who was clearly faster then you were. That goes for everybody that was behind the front row. Once again we see drivers trying to win the race at the start even though it was a 30 minute plus race. What is even worse is that with the exception of the top 4 or 5 the others had no shot at winning the race yet here they come right to the front in turn 1. Then add a couple t3 cars and BOOM! If drivers are not going to respect those that qualified better then they did and just force situations that will only result in crashes then we should just skip qualifying altogether and just draw straws, roll some dice, or engage in midget tossing. As I have said before, I am not sure what the stewards could do about it (maybe nothing) but we as a class should get this under control with or without them. I am not trying to piss anybody off but at a National level race with the talent of the drivers in the field I would have thought there would have been more give then take at the start. Again I could be completely out of line and wrong (would not be the first time) but that is how I feel.
JT

[soapbox] I know no one here and have no horse in this race. I find this post to be ridiculous. What are valid points in it are tossed aside by a personal agenda it seems. Calling drivers out(good drivers no less)that they have no respect for those who qualified in front of them is laughable [Roll Eyes] Come on Jamie...really? [twocents]

Last time I checked racing is just that...racing! If those in front row are clearly better and are going to win...why not just hand out trophies at pre-grid and throw midgets as you so eloquently suggest [Big Grin]

Danny S...I've been following this forum for a year now and hands down you are one of the class acts here. You say it like it is or how you see it, in a way that isn't disrespectful and well thought out. Never seems to be an agenda or a need for subtle backhanded remarks. Sometimes written words can be taken the wrong way...its an art to put things down in words that the intent is clearly understood. Keep leading by example!

From someone who doesn't know you personally but who's respect you have earned [thumbsup]

--------------------
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quote:
Originally posted by Danny Steyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Tucker:
but it is low class racing in my opinion. JT

Jamie - this is the only issue I have with your post. As Andrew and I agreed to each other on our call on Monday, the only way either of us would ever want to win a race is "heads up racing".

No dirty moves, no bumping anyone off. Not by cheating, not by protesting etc.

I believe I conduct myself fairly on the race course. I race aggressively and try my best to capitalize on mistakes made by others. I try not to make stupid moves (I have certainly made some and paid the price). When I have made a stupid move I will always go and find that person and aplogize.

If you see it differently, and you feel that I race "low class" I would appreciate it if you would come and talk to me about it and help me understand what I did wrong and how I can improve my class of racing.

I am sure you would appreciate the same in return. Your friend, Danny

Danny low class was not meant to mean you are low class or you're driving is!!! We are friends and friends with everyone involved and I know you nor anybody else would do anything dirty, cheat, or intentionally risk another driver. Sorry if that is how my post came across but that is not how I meant it. I simply believe that the pole sitter (which is sometimes you) should be given the courtesy that putting down such a lap affords. We have seen time and again that being the pole sitter is the worst position on the track. He has to look at the flag while the other driver next to him looks at both the flag and the pole sitter. Everyone else tries to get a run before the green flag which usually results in the pole sitter getting run over. What is worse is that the further you go back on the grid the bigger the runs. That is what I believe to be low class racing and we have all done it. I have started behind you many times and I have never passed you before turn 1 unless you had a problem and as a result we have never had contact. Even though we are having this conversation there will be a few drivers at Homestead that will try to pass faster cars at the start and contact will happen as a result; mark my words. My point for saying that those that passed the front row at Sebring were to blame was based on the fact that contact would have been much less likely if the pack wasn't 6 wide. Andrew nor Alex missed a shift and started to go when the green flag waved. There is no way the back of the pack could have caught the leaders if they were traveling the same speed when the flag flew; as a result contact did happen.

--------------------
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quote:
Originally posted by Ron Alan:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Tucker:
Danny thanks for posting your video but I have to say I believe you and a few others were responsible for the crash in turn 1. Although this start is really no different then what we have seen time and time again it seems to me that you, Chip, and others laid back in order to time the start and pass the leader prior to turn one. Is that illegal, probably not but it is low class racing in my opinion. You and others were clearly moving faster then Andrew when the green flag came out and therefor easily passed him at the start finish. You could have just as easily stayed behind the poll sitter who was clearly faster then you were. That goes for everybody that was behind the front row. Once again we see drivers trying to win the race at the start even though it was a 30 minute plus race. What is even worse is that with the exception of the top 4 or 5 the others had no shot at winning the race yet here they come right to the front in turn 1. Then add a couple t3 cars and BOOM! If drivers are not going to respect those that qualified better then they did and just force situations that will only result in crashes then we should just skip qualifying altogether and just draw straws, roll some dice, or engage in midget tossing. As I have said before, I am not sure what the stewards could do about it (maybe nothing) but we as a class should get this under control with or without them. I am not trying to piss anybody off but at a National level race with the talent of the drivers in the field I would have thought there would have been more give then take at the start. Again I could be completely out of line and wrong (would not be the first time) but that is how I feel.
JT

[soapbox] I know no one here and have no horse in this race. I find this post to be ridiculous. What are valid points in it are tossed aside by a personal agenda it seems. Calling drivers out(good drivers no less)that they have no respect for those who qualified in front of them is laughable [Roll Eyes] Come on Jamie...really? [twocents]

Last time I checked racing is just that...racing! If those in front row are clearly better and are going to win...why not just hand out trophies at pre-grid and throw midgets as you so eloquently suggest [Big Grin]

Danny S...I've been following this forum for a year now and hands down you are one of the class acts here. You say it like it is or how you see it, in a way that isn't disrespectful and well thought out. Never seems to be an agenda or a need for subtle backhanded remarks. Sometimes written words can be taken the wrong way...its an art to put things down in words that the intent is clearly understood. Keep leading by example!

From someone who doesn't know you personally but who's respect you have earned [thumbsup]

Who are you again? [Wink]

--------------------
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quote:
Originally posted by fishguyaz:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Tucker:
The pole sitter (in this case for SM Andrew) controls the pace.

as a member of "the peanut gallery" I cant really comment about the race, i wasnt there, and a cant see the event on dannys video too well, but the polesitter does in fact control the pace, and the gap on a split start.
jamie, if the polesitter were to make a mistake, say something like missing a shift, should everyone else back off?
i see this as similiar.


bummer this happened.

I would have thought that 60 SM cars would warrant a dedicated run group: period

didnt anyone get a group of the SM drivers together and make an strong effort not to have any other classes mixed in with them?
i would blame that (choice, by the drivers/steward) as the cause.

sorry, but to me 60 cars in any class mandates a dedicated run group.

I am not saying anybody should crash their cars to avoid passing the pollsitter! Just that we should try to give those that were faster then us what they deserve; a clean start and not try to pass them because we have 2 mph on them. Just because you could pull along side does not mean you should. If another driver is clearly faster then cut the guy or girl a break and let him get rolling. If you can catch them after a lap then go get it. Thats all I am saying!!

--------------------
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So in this post you blatantly call Danny out.

quote:
Danny thanks for posting your video but I have to say I believe you and a few others were responsible for the crash in turn 1. Although this start is really no different then what we have seen time and time again it seems to me that you, Chip, and others laid back in order to time the start and pass the leader prior to turn one. Is that illegal, probably not but it is low class racing in my opinion.
In this post you claim that's not what you meant to say.

quote:
Danny low class was not meant to mean you are low class or you're driving is!!! We are friends and friends with everyone involved and I know you nor anybody else would do anything dirty, cheat, or intentionally risk another driver.
Jamie you are a good driver no doubt, but your rants and one sided opinions have finally crossed the line.

--------------------
Mike Collins
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The MEATHEAD Racing 2010 Calendar is up!!!!
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ALL OPINIONS ON RULES OR SPECIFICATIONS ARE JUST THAT, MY OPINIONS!

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wash filmo by kroogy (danny),
charby no blaymo, he got up slow by datsun z car front up green before,
ah-ley-handro along ride for, no blaymo,
kroogy nothing did wrong, Honda by also he got up slow 1 number turn,
draggy out try miss to brake early check, deep in, no out way, keess kroogy hoo want no hit chippy an honda ...
chippy best try jappy kamikasie harbor of pearl manoover, peepee out slap try on kroogy, leeve draggy road kill behind, uggly happen, learn must no.

Charby say lane inside be must, no won let paso doble inside, kroogy let never chippy lane inside one number turn Home at stead, fast much, at top of speed, thah-ree wide no, tew wide yes.
Home at stead be good ...

written by Andrew's Ing-gleh teeshirt, er tee- chir. be all sayf at Home at stead. try stay in line over not.
[Smile]

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Seem that most of the problems on the start could have been avoided with a true split start where the T cars had a 10-15 second split or more.

Pat

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quote:
Originally posted by Mike C:
So in this post you blatantly call Danny out.

quote:
Danny thanks for posting your video but I have to say I believe you and a few others were responsible for the crash in turn 1. Although this start is really no different then what we have seen time and time again it seems to me that you, Chip, and others laid back in order to time the start and pass the leader prior to turn one. Is that illegal, probably not but it is low class racing in my opinion.
In this post you claim that's not what you meant to say.

quote:
Danny low class was not meant to mean you are low class or you're driving is!!! We are friends and friends with everyone involved and I know you nor anybody else would do anything dirty, cheat, or intentionally risk another driver.
Jamie you are a good driver no doubt, but your rants and one sided opinions have finally crossed the line.

Mike I am not sure how you came up with this being a one sided rant because it wasn't. It was a point that I am trying convey about a topic that has taken out all to many cars. Once I read how Danny took the post I tried to clarify my position or as some would say back pedal. If you think what I said crossed the line then I do apologize for it. In hindsight it was directed unfairly at Danny as this has been happening for a long time in SM. If you don't agree that is fine as well but I thought my second post might have cleared up what I was trying to say; maybe not. Looking back low class was not the word I should have used. How about, not great racing etiquette?

--------------------
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Thank you.

--------------------
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ALL OPINIONS ON RULES OR SPECIFICATIONS ARE JUST THAT, MY OPINIONS!

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Placing blame on the T3/mixed class/no split start/CS is silly. Everyone knew the T3s were there and should have driven accordingly. Too much talent and experience up front to play that card. Thats the kind of whine I hear from my self (rookie).

You guys at the front should have handled it better. End of story.

My [twocents]

Regards
Neil

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quote:
Originally posted by Funracer:
Placing blame on the T3/mixed class/no split start/CS is silly. Everyone knew the T3s were there and should have driven accordingly. Too much talent and experience up front to play that card. Thats the kind of whine I hear from my self (rookie).

You guys at the front should have handled it better. End of story.

My [twocents]

Regards
Neil

Looks like one of those "racing deals" to me from the video. I don't see any bad intentions or poor judgement or crazy moves. It was an aggressive start by several but that's not unusual. That's a wide piece of pavement before turn one which means a big funnel. The contact at the exit of turn one was probably avoidable.

As for the T3 cars, you can't blame them based on our rule book, but when you have a mixed group and the group ahead is slower through turn one than the cars that follow, you have a bad recipe.

Solutions:

Separate group as already mentioned.
Starter to throw green sooner.
Voluntary split start (SM polesitter to leave big gap between him and front row) but you have to tell officials and competitiors and get their blessing that you're going to do this. I doubt they want to put a separate pace car out there for a single row. You can do this with one green flag.

[ 01-14-2011, 12:41 PM: Message edited by: Tom Sager ]

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Tom

I agree with you on pretty much everything you said above - thanks

--------------------
Danny
http://www.dannysteyn.com
http://www.adeptstudios.com
OPM Autosports | Traqmate | Rossini Racing Engines
2010 June Sprints Champ, 2010 ARRC SMX Champ
2009 SARRC Champ, 2009 SEDiv ECR Champ, 2009 FES Champ
2008 SEDiv ECR Champ

Danny Steyn Verified Driver
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Jamie

all is good between us - no worries mate. Look forward to seeing you and your boys at the track as always. Will be on my best behaviour.
Should be a fun 3 days

--------------------
Danny
http://www.dannysteyn.com
http://www.adeptstudios.com
OPM Autosports | Traqmate | Rossini Racing Engines
2010 June Sprints Champ, 2010 ARRC SMX Champ
2009 SARRC Champ, 2009 SEDiv ECR Champ, 2009 FES Champ
2008 SEDiv ECR Champ

David Dewhurst
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Wasn't there, no dog in the hunt. You guys are all great drivers. [yep] How about via time elements everyone move beyond what the pole car Andrew did or didn't do. Everyone that pushed the loud pedal took part in the aftermath.

Time in seconds:

00:22 Green flag, Danny accelerates (Jim in line)

00:24 Danny side x side with Andrew (Jim in line behind Danny, Jim bump drafts Danny)

00:27 Chip starts left side pass of Jim.

00:37 Danny moves right? Jim behind Danny moves left to follow Chip?

00:38 Chip on left 1/2 car ahead of Danny, red car on right even with Chip 1/2 car ahead of Danny, Jim starts sideways. [Eek!]

00:39 Chip on left 3/4 car ahead of Danny, red car on right full length car ahead of Danny, Jim full sideways.

Nice 360 big guy.

The race at the front is ON, after that behind, ALL HELL BROKE LOOSE. From my perspective [twocents] the sideways hell & free for all started 16 seconds after the green flag.

Do I need to call my yankee pal under the OPM tent & have him keep an eye on you guys?
[scratchchin]

--------------------
Have Fun [Wink]

David Dewhurst
CenDiv
Milwaukee Region
Spec Miata #14

Ron Alan Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Tucker:
quote:
Originally posted by Ron Alan:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Tucker:
Danny thanks for posting your video but I have to say I believe you and a few others were responsible for the crash in turn 1. Although this start is really no different then what we have seen time and time again it seems to me that you, Chip, and others laid back in order to time the start and pass the leader prior to turn one. Is that illegal, probably not but it is low class racing in my opinion. You and others were clearly moving faster then Andrew when the green flag came out and therefor easily passed him at the start finish. You could have just as easily stayed behind the poll sitter who was clearly faster then you were. That goes for everybody that was behind the front row. Once again we see drivers trying to win the race at the start even though it was a 30 minute plus race. What is even worse is that with the exception of the top 4 or 5 the others had no shot at winning the race yet here they come right to the front in turn 1. Then add a couple t3 cars and BOOM! If drivers are not going to respect those that qualified better then they did and just force situations that will only result in crashes then we should just skip qualifying altogether and just draw straws, roll some dice, or engage in midget tossing. As I have said before, I am not sure what the stewards could do about it (maybe nothing) but we as a class should get this under control with or without them. I am not trying to piss anybody off but at a National level race with the talent of the drivers in the field I would have thought there would have been more give then take at the start. Again I could be completely out of line and wrong (would not be the first time) but that is how I feel.
JT

[soapbox] I know no one here and have no horse in this race. I find this post to be ridiculous. What are valid points in it are tossed aside by a personal agenda it seems. Calling drivers out(good drivers no less)that they have no respect for those who qualified in front of them is laughable [Roll Eyes] Come on Jamie...really? [twocents]

Last time I checked racing is just that...racing! If those in front row are clearly better and are going to win...why not just hand out trophies at pre-grid and throw midgets as you so eloquently suggest [Big Grin]

Danny S...I've been following this forum for a year now and hands down you are one of the class acts here. You say it like it is or how you see it, in a way that isn't disrespectful and well thought out. Never seems to be an agenda or a need for subtle backhanded remarks. Sometimes written words can be taken the wrong way...its an art to put things down in words that the intent is clearly understood. Keep leading by example!

From someone who doesn't know you personally but who's respect you have earned [thumbsup]

Who are you again? [Wink]
No one...just a spectator with a perspective [Big Grin]

Your "back pedal" goes along way. Ditto Mike C.

Good luck to all at your next turn 1 meeting [duck]

--------------------
-RA


"Happy birthday, I didn't get you a present...Oh, mom got you one? Well, that's from me then too, unless it's shitty."
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d mathias Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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It's heart-warming to see everyone answering our president's call for civility. [Wink]

I hope I'm not putting words in Jamie's mouth,but I think I understand his point. Yeah it's racing, and yeah, the start is the best opportunity to gain position, but this is club racing (as in AMATEUR) and a little give and take, especially on the first lap, can go a long way toward everyone going home with a smile on their face. I witness a lot of irrational exuburance (possibly in some divisions more than others [Razz] ). If you pass someone on the start who out-qualified you by 1/2 second, chances are they're going to pass you back before the first lap is done. So you create a potentially disastrous situation for 30 seconds of glory.

We may be amateurs, but we can still race like professionals. [thumbsup]

-Denny

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As somebody who raced Saturday and not Sunday my comment is just from what I've seen over the last few years. To myself there is way too much accelerating and decelerating going on in a lot of our starts. It seems to me if everyone was traveling at the same speed and in line with proper spacing between themself's and the next in line most of these issues would not take place. A lot of what takes place behind the leaders starts in fact with them. I'm not sure why half way down the straight leading into 17 all of the cars aren't lined up. I lost a diff housing at Barber due to the leaders speeding up entering the start straight only to lock up the brakes part way down and someone behind listening to "GoGoGo" on the radio and not being able to stop in time. I do agree in part with Jamie as the leaders are in fact sitting ducks with everybody behind them laying back and trying to time a run as the flag drops. All of this is not how the SCCA wants us to conduct ourself's

Bottom line is there is way too much damage being dished out due to not enough respect for others out on the track. Several good cars seem to have their race weekend end early each and every race. We as a group need to take responsibility for cleaning up our class.

As Danny says, "Flame Away"

George Munson

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Fellas, it's not just in the Nationals either. Think about the botched starts at the CMP and VIR Regionals last season that consumed a load of good cars. Look at de Pedro's airbourne start at Summit from 2 seasons back.

I agree whole heartedly with George. We need to take a good look in the mirror. We also need to petition the Starters NOT to drop the flag if folks are playing games before the start.

It's probably only luck that someone hasn't gotten really hurt by this point.

--------------------
Seneca Motorsports
Sponsored by Race Engineering
"American by birth, CONSERVATIVE by the grace of GOD"!

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As I stated earlier Jamie has valid points...initially just wasn't presented effectively IMHO.

You'll never take the "race" out of people(why they're out there!)...so telling someone not to pass the car in front of them until after turn 1 isn't realistic.

I can only speak for the region i watch but the most common problem I see is missed shifts at the start...you can't solve this! The other is those who have spotters and those that don't...after the first 3 or 4 rows seeing the green flag without a spotter(or not!) can get you jumped by those that do...which can cause 4 wide at turn 1 midpack also. Each drivers ability to know when the green flag drops and react to it is not controllable.

So, what does that leave you? Only 2 things that can be controlled as far as I can tell.
1. Distance between cars.
2. Speed at start.

I apologize if what I say here is already in the rules specifically...but my thoughts are these.

All cars must come to within 1/2 car length prior to the final turn...achieved by pace car coming to a crawl 2 turns before. Prior to the pace car turning off he sets a speed of 40mph MAX! The front row may not accelerate beyond this speed until the green flag is dropped. Any violator of the gap rule is giving a black flag drive through hot pits penalty. Adhered to and enforced this will help the one problem of anticipating and getting a run. The other problems mentioned just can't be controlled...you can't tell drivers not to pass when they are racing [Big Grin] [twocents]

--------------------
-RA


"Happy birthday, I didn't get you a present...Oh, mom got you one? Well, that's from me then too, unless it's shitty."
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quote:
Originally posted by Ron Alan:
As I stated earlier Jamie has valid points...initially just wasn't presented effectively IMHO.

You'll never take the "race" out of people(why they're out there!)...so telling someone not to pass the car in front of them until after turn 1 isn't realistic.

I can only speak for the region i watch but the most common problem I see is missed shifts at the start...you can't solve this! The other is those who have spotters and those that don't...after the first 3 or 4 rows seeing the green flag without a spotter(or not!) can get you jumped by those that do...which can cause 4 wide at turn 1 midpack also. Each drivers ability to know when the green flag drops and react to it is not controllable.

So, what does that leave you? Only 2 things that can be controlled as far as I can tell.
1. Distance between cars.
2. Speed at start.

I apologize if what I say here is already in the rules specifically...but my thoughts are these.

All cars must come to within 1/2 car length prior to the final turn...achieved by pace car coming to a crawl 2 turns before. Prior to the pace car turning off he sets a speed of 40mph MAX! The front row may not accelerate beyond this speed until the green flag is dropped. Any violator of the gap rule is giving a black flag drive through hot pits penalty. Adhered to and enforced this will help the one problem of anticipating and getting a run. The other problems mentioned just can't be controlled...you can't tell drivers not to pass when they are racing [Big Grin] [twocents]

Some good thoughts but hard to enforce. With all due respect to some of the good engine builders out there and everyone that drives a '99, it's near impossible for a starter to determine when and if a Spec Miata hits the throttle. We just don't have enough power to be noticed unless someone gets out of line. Slower starts will help officials spot offenders.

Ron Alan Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Tom Sager:
quote:
Originally posted by Ron Alan:
As I stated earlier Jamie has valid points...initially just wasn't presented effectively IMHO.

You'll never take the "race" out of people(why they're out there!)...so telling someone not to pass the car in front of them until after turn 1 isn't realistic.

I can only speak for the region i watch but the most common problem I see is missed shifts at the start...you can't solve this! The other is those who have spotters and those that don't...after the first 3 or 4 rows seeing the green flag without a spotter(or not!) can get you jumped by those that do...which can cause 4 wide at turn 1 midpack also. Each drivers ability to know when the green flag drops and react to it is not controllable.

So, what does that leave you? Only 2 things that can be controlled as far as I can tell.
1. Distance between cars.
2. Speed at start.

I apologize if what I say here is already in the rules specifically...but my thoughts are these.

All cars must come to within 1/2 car length prior to the final turn...achieved by pace car coming to a crawl 2 turns before. Prior to the pace car turning off he sets a speed of 40mph MAX! The front row may not accelerate beyond this speed until the green flag is dropped. Any violator of the gap rule is giving a black flag drive through hot pits penalty. Adhered to and enforced this will help the one problem of anticipating and getting a run. The other problems mentioned just can't be controlled...you can't tell drivers not to pass when they are racing [Big Grin] [twocents]

Some good thoughts but hard to enforce. With all due respect to some of the good engine builders out there and everyone that drives a '99, it's near impossible for a starter to determine when and if a Spec Miata hits the throttle. We just don't have enough power to be noticed unless someone gets out of line. Slower starts will help officials spot offenders.
Agree totally...but all that it takes is for 1 or 2 people to be subjected to a penalty and the word will be out. People will think twice about leaving 20 feet or more! 2 or more officials 100-200yds before start finish with headsets listening for green flag and watching...again just a thought.

--------------------
-RA


"Happy birthday, I didn't get you a present...Oh, mom got you one? Well, that's from me then too, unless it's shitty."
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It would be interesting to find out where all these extra officials will be coming from, since many events have barely enough stewards and workers to pass the minimum legal requirements. I would hate to be the car that was mistakenly brought in with a black flag because they got the number wrong, or didn't really have a clear view. You can't take back a black flag on appeal.
Wheel

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wash filmo by kroogy (danny),
charby no blaymo, he got up slow by datsun z car front up green before,
ah-ley-handro along ride for, no blaymo,
kroogy nothing did wrong, Honda by also he got up slow 1 number turn,
draggy out try miss to brake early check, deep in, no out way, keess kroogy hoo want no hit chippy an honda ...
chippy best try jappy kamikasie harbor of pearl manoover, peepee out slap try on kroogy, leeve draggy road kill behind, uggly happen, learn must no.

Charby say lane inside be must, no won let paso doble inside, kroogy let never chippy lane inside one number turn Home at stead, fast much, at top of speed, thah-ree wide no, tew wide yes.
Home at stead be good ...

Dat is sum f-ing funny chit... lmfao
jappy kamikasie harbor of pearl manoover!!!!!

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quote:
Originally posted by wheel:
It would be interesting to find out where all these extra officials will be coming from, since many events have barely enough stewards and workers to pass the minimum legal requirements. I would hate to be the car that was mistakenly brought in with a black flag because they got the number wrong, or didn't really have a clear view. You can't take back a black flag on appeal.
Wheel

Understand and agree with this for sure. I just think speed and car distance are the 2 things that have a "chance" of being controlled better than they seem to be now [twocents]

--------------------
-RA


"Happy birthday, I didn't get you a present...Oh, mom got you one? Well, that's from me then too, unless it's shitty."
9:52 AM Sep 14th, 2009 via web
http://twitter.com/shitmydadsays

 
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