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Author Topic: 94/97 owners switching to 4.3 gear
Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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This poll is to be answered only by sm owners of 1994 to 1997 cars. It is set up to see if these owners are willing to replace the Ring and pinion in there car in order to help achieve a single gear ratio in the class.

There is also a section on weight. The gear will be a performance advantage over what you have now, so I suggest all 94-97 cars will have to add some weight to make up for the gear. Please keep an open mind as this will lead to a more level playing field and should get ous to where 1 car is not favored at a certain track because of gear ratio. We should all be shifting in the same spots now as well.

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Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
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tony senese Verified Driver
Phew, that was close!

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But, 50 lbs for the gear and 50 lbs for the larger restrictor seems a bit much!


Major EDIT

Um, I think my memory is bad, From the nasa-ma spec miata challenge rules....

12.1 Throttle Restrictor
1994 - 1995 1800cc engine powered vehicles must use a forty seven (47) millimeter
throttle restrictor.
1996 - 1997 1800cc engine powered vehicles must use a forty five (45) millimeter
throttle restrictor.


maybe give me a 50 lb reduction to go to 45mm!!!!!

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Tony Senese
SM#99
2008 NASA-NE SM Champion
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Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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it is same restricter on 96/97, 2 mm smaller on 94/95

--------------------
Jim Drago
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tony senese Verified Driver
Phew, that was close!

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Can I change my vote!!!!

--------------------
Tony Senese
SM#99
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tony senese Verified Driver
Phew, that was close!

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Honestly, I think if I could use 5th gear it would be worth the extra 50 lbs, right now the only time I shift to 5th is to keep my DB's down at Limerock!!!

Ok the front stretch at VIR and Watkins Glen, and Pocono Long, but other than that almost never.

--------------------
Tony Senese
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Jim, can I vote just so I can see the results? [Wink]

1.6's not let into the club house. Again... [Roll Eyes]

--------------------
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all yes, so far 1-1-1, not sying who answered (tony) [Smile]

--------------------
Jim Drago
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I don't think we should keep increasing the weight on these little Miatas. The cars are heavy enough as it is. I would support the 1999+ cars losing 25 pounds and the 1.6 cars going to 2275 pounds if the change to the 4.3 gear were made on the 1994 cars.

Isn't the rev limiter lower than the rest of the cars on the 1994-1997 cars? Wouldn't this be a problem?

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Well,,,,not always lower [Big Grin]

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volante

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Jim,

I know a guy with a '94. Can I vote ?

soupy
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Jim, I just sold my '97, can I vote?

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Charlie Campbell
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Weight would be fine. Restrictor should stay the same though. If anything, just let the 96 and 97 guys start using the 94-95 restrictor.

I only know one guy who drives a 96. Coincidence?

--------------------
Rob Gibson
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Jim, If you want to (Level The Playing Field),Let the 96,and 97 cars have the 47mm restrictor plate! Don't add weight to me,the way the rules are now, the 99s are already faster, remember the ARRC? There were five 99s faster than me, you were one of them,just look at the lap charts.I am not interested in the 4.3 ratio in my car either,I paid $600 for the 4.1 in the car, who is going to pay for the 4.3? Look forward to racing with you again soon.

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Dean Copeland

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I like your idea to equalize the cars and eliminate a source of variation between them. How hard is the job?

How would the conversion work- big bang for everyone over a winter or a season of transition?

Chris

soupy
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Dean, are you trying to say all 5 99's were driven by inferior drivers and they only finished ahead because of the cars?

I think this would be a great start to moving into the "spec" direction.

--------------------
Charlie Campbell
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Dean-you finished 4th!! How is it that 5 legal 99s were faster than you?
There were also several 99s that finsished behind you. [Smile]

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Matthew F. Davis
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Charlie, Inferior Drivers? Those are Your words,Not mine! These five drivers are all TOP DAWGS! They are Five of the best drivers I have had the pleasure of racing with over the last two years!The reason we went to the ARRC was to see how I would Stack Up against some of the Big Dawgs.Close,but it is frustrating to get pulled six car lengths down the back straight.I talked to Jim Dainels during that race weekend, and we agreed that the 96,97 cars should get the 47mm plate to be more competitive.I applaud him for his help in getting SCCA to make a ruleing on it,even though they ruled against it,Thanks Jim. Charlie, Its all good, look forward to Nelson Ledges this year, had a blast last year at the Double,your one of the Big Dawgs up there.

--------------------
Dean Copeland

Rob Morris
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One of those 99's at the ARRC had a very impressive drive to the front! After watching the Video, I noticed somthing else as impressive... The beautiful flame balls that car put out.

--------------------
Rob Morris

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quote:
Originally posted by Rob Morris:
One of those 99's at the ARRC had a very impressive drive to the front! After watching the Video, I noticed somthing else as impressive... The beautiful flame balls that car put out.

Care to expand on that?

--------------------
Blake Clements

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I'm sure they are top dawgs, and I don't even know who they were. You missed my point. Just because they finished ahead of you does that mean their cars are prepped better? overdogs? not legal? Could they do the same with a 1.6?
Ive got a few years in a '97 and WADR to Jim, IMHO the 47mm rp isn't the answer either.

Nelson MARRS not on my schedule this year.

--------------------
Charlie Campbell
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I sent a letter to the CRB a couple of months back asking to change the restrictor in the 96/97 to the same size as the 94/95 (47mm) and got nowhere. Meanwhile the 96/97 will continue to be an endangered species.

It seems too harsh to bump them up to a weight that is only 25 lbs less than a '99 (2400 vs. 2425) considering the HP differences between the two. How about 2375 with a 4.3 gear and 47mm RP for 94/97?

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quote:
Originally posted by Blake Clements:
quote:
Originally posted by Rob Morris:
The beautiful flame balls ...

Care to expand on that?
I like it ... Blake "FlameBalls" Clements!

Stickers shall be made. [Big Grin]

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quote:
Originally posted by soupy:
Dean, are you trying to say all 5 99's were driven by inferior drivers and they only finished ahead because of the cars?

I think this would be a great start to moving into the "spec" direction.

It seems so... Dean, that was incredibly $(()((*&&*)(^ thing to say. Your car was faster than most in straightline, at least that is what many complained to me about, I never saw it as the last time I saw your car, it was pushing me off the track at T1 [Eek!] No I know it wasn't your fault, but still funny to say! [Razz] I only busting your balls Dean bbecause to spout of crap like that... well you fill in the rest [Wink]

1) 99#1 2X ARRC CHAMP, PRO DRIVER
2) 99#2 NASA NATIONAL CHAMP/GRAND AM
3) 99#3 2X dIV cHAMP/SPRINTS WINNER
4) 99#4 FORMER WORLD CHALLENGE DRIVER
5) 99#5 GUY RACES 30 + SM WEEKENDS/GRAND AM

All with god knows how many laps around Atanta, you with none? I'm sure it was all the car...

--------------------
Jim Drago
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Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Blake Clements:
quote:
Originally posted by Rob Morris:
One of those 99's at the ARRC had a very impressive drive to the front! After watching the Video, I noticed somthing else as impressive... The beautiful flame balls that car put out.

Care to expand on that?
Had to be me or Maki? As most know 99 cars are rich, thus dumping unburned fuel(the good stuff at that event [Razz] ) and when it hits the end of the pipe [flamed]

Jim Fireball Drago

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Jim Drago
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Rick Maki Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Drago, is that why they call your car The Batmobile....

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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Could have been yours he is talking about and not me!!! Oh wait, he said "impressive drive" to the front, your right, had to be me and not you! [Eek!]

--------------------
Jim Drago
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25 lb perhaps...
same plates seems logical to me, but the 47 plate would be the one, not the 45...

I agree the 4.3 is better, but are you sure the 4.3 speeds us up at topeka? I'm not...

Survey, seems to be missing the right choices [Wink]

that said i voted yes, yes, yes in order to move all cars closer to spec, then the adjustments can be made to get to the correct 4.3, 47mm (all), 2375lb combo...

sam

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Sam H.
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Plates and weight are the easy parts Sammy...

Seems like most favor being on the same gear... but amazingly, not many are interested in giving anything back for the gear, imagine that.

Topeka doesn't matter, faster or slower, but equal does... With a little luck it won't matter much longer anyway

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Jim Drago
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I'm not 100% convinced that the gear makes a big difference on accelleration - it's 100% course dependant. It would be one thing if we were drag racing, the shorter gear is a clear advantage - but if the 4.1 is better in some places, it may actually TAKE PERFORMANCE AWAY from the car at that particular track (like places where you can stretch out the gear, or use 2nd where a 4.3 car can't.) It's that reason I don't think there needs to be much of a weight change. Power is relatively similar between the cars... heck the 4.1 helps USE the 1.8's torque advantage more!

--------------------
-Jason Saini :: Fort Worth, TX
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Jim,
Was wondering that about a few of the 99's this year. Noticed that a lot of them flamed when lifting out of the throttle. Especially at the end of the back strait. Running Rich seems to be fast for some of the 99's. I wouldn't change a thing.... [Smile]

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Rob Morris

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I've actually seen the same thing from some early cars (90-93) that were fast!!
Rob-you and I spent most of the ARRC nose to tail-any fireballs from the blue #45?

--------------------
Matthew F. Davis
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quote:
Originally posted by Jason Saini:
I'm not 100% convinced that the gear makes a big difference on acceleration - it's 100% course dependant.

Well it's a good thing I am not trying to convince you then [Big Grin]
It does make a difference on acceleration, it is a mathematical certainty...
But as far as lap time etc, I agree 100%, it is actual better at some tracks and faster lap times turned. But if all were on same gear, SM would be better for it.

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Jim Drago
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Rob Morris
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Yeah Matt, that was a fun race. Just wish we could have latched onto that white #2 as he was driving his way back up to the front. Maybe next year? Matt-Your car did put out a few nice flames as well. Mostly in T5 (left hander after Esses), and 10A, end of back strait. The same turns where most others did it as well, under lifting and downshifts.
BEAUTIFUL SIGHT!!

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Rob Morris

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Can some one who voted update us 1.6 guys on the tally?

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Sure. Luv your hat.
______________
Poll Results: 94/97 owners switching to 4.3 gear (36 votes.)
As a94/97 owner would you be willing to switch Ring and pinion to 4.3 ratio?
Choose 1
yes 69% (25)

no 31% (11)

Would you support a 50 lb weight increase if the gear change was made?
Choose 1
yes 42% (15)

no 58% (21)

Do you support additional 50lbs and all 94-7 cars run 45mm plate?
Choose 1
yes 25% (9)

no 75% (27)

--------------------
MB.

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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
Seems like most favor being on the same gear... but amazingly, not many are interested in giving anything back for the gear, imagine that.

I'm good with giving something back. Just not 50 lbs. That puts us within 25 lbs of a '99. I agree with Sam. 25 lbs seems reasonable. If we're bumped to 2400 I'm going car shopping.

I think the same gear is a great idea. Hopefully, the 96/97 restrictor plate issue can be fixed at the same time.

WChristian 2
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Just a little tid bit for those of you wondering why there is a different restrictor on the 96/97:

Starting with the 3/95 start of the ODB-II implementation (VIN 14193) the pistons were changed with a slight dome to increase the compression ratio to an actual 9.0:1. The '94-3/95 pistons were factory rated at 9.0:1 but actually was around 8.8.

 -

In 1996 the peak HP rating of the Miata 1.8 motor was raised to 133 hp from 128. This comes primarily from the new for 1996 ODBII software having the ability to lean out the above 6000 rpm fuel curve as well as the slightly raised dome 9.0 pistons.

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You should probably cite the website you got that info from...

Jason

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Jason Holland
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Robert Edmison Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Thanks for the info William.

My understanding is that Mazda provides the same replacement crate motors for 94-97. If so, how many 13+ year old 94-95 pistons could still be out there?

Does anyone know how many HP the ODBII is worth?

For reference, at Willow Springs I'm above 6,000 RPM for 45% of the lap. At Cal Speedway and Buttonwillow 16 CCW I'm above 6,000 RPM for about 35%.

Of course, the next question is does the HP advantage of the ODBII times the amount of time spent at over 6,000 offset the 2mm restrictor plate difference?

If we started out with only a 5 HP difference (to the flywheel) with the pistons and the ODBII, what are we talking about? At best 2-3 HP that's available for less than 1/2 of a lap (effectively 1 HP to 1 1/2 HP) and even less at the rear wheels.

I'm curious to know if anyone has any stats on the HP difference between a 45mm to 47mm restrictor plate in a 96/97.

WChristian 2
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Wow, didn't know I was in 8th grade english and had to site all my sources.

Any other info people would like about interchangeability of years and history of the engines check out this website:

http://members.aol.com/solomiata/MX5Engine.html

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I wasn't trying to be snarky, but it is good manners and standard procedure to cite sources.

thanks!

Jason

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Jason Holland
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Dusty Bottoms Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Jason, F=ma, T=I*alpha. Like Drago says, it's a mathematical certainty. [Wink]

A 94 with a 4.3 and only a 50lbs penalty would be more of an overdog than it is now...still close to the 99 in performance. The 1.6 would be even farther back than it is today.

Remember that some 1.8's have a lower redline than 1.6's. I don't know about the 99's, but my car (94 w/stock ECU) has a 6900 RPM redline.

As far as using stock HP to class cars...well, like people mentioned, it's silly to use that to figure out where the cars should be (even more silly if you think about early RX8 HP ratings). Note that the 94's now use a lighter flywheel, and there was no difference in HP spec between early 94's and late 94's/early 95's (cams & pistons). The ECUs are STILL different. So the best argument for making 94-97=47mm is that people can "adjust" their A/F with fuel...and some do it with ECU tweaking (like 1.6 guys can do with their AFM) but the CRB/SMAC will not adjust based on stuff people do that's not legal, even if it's impossible to tech.

Maybe I should have voted for the 4.3 gear so when the 94's become even more overdogs I can sell my car for more $.

--------------------
"Your victory is tainted! Asterisk! Asterisk!!!"--Lisa Simpson

Jason Saini Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Antonio Garza:
Jason, F=ma, T=I*alpha. Like Drago says, it's a mathematical certainty. [Wink]

Sigh, I realize that Antonio... please understand my point of the 4.1 being an advantage on some tracks. Your observation of the lower 1.8 redline is further proof that we need a spec ECU to make all this work, and root out the funny ECU's that are running around out there.

I also am firmly of the belief that if the 1.6's are to remain, and no other changes are made, they should get cams or something else to bring the torque up.

I understand everyone's resistance to change, but again - think of this with an open mind, and know that my goals (I certainly no longer have a dog in this fight) are parity, not an advantage for myself. Not that any racer would ever have their best interest in mind. [Roll Eyes]

--------------------
-Jason Saini :: Fort Worth, TX
-Team MER :: 2007 MX-5 Cup Champion
-2008 SPEED TC Rookie of the Year!
-Based at Motorsport Ranch
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Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by wrc2tuning #31:
Just a little tid bit for those of you wondering why there is a different restrictor on the 96/97:

Starting with the 3/95 start of the ODB-II implementation (VIN 14193) the pistons were changed with a slight dome to increase the compression ratio to an actual 9.0:1. The '94-3/95 pistons were factory rated at 9.0:1 but actually was around 8.8.


This is no longer relevant in SM as our compression ratio is 9.0 and if you buy a crate motor, you are getting the 96/7 motor whether you order 94 anyway. I think less than 10% of all 94/95 owners run an unmodified original 94 or 95 motor. Most have atleast done a head by now and got to max compression... So to me that arguement doesn't hold water at all.

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
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EAST STREET RACING

WChristian 2
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Drago,

quote:
In 1996 the peak HP rating of the Miata 1.8 motor was raised to 133 hp from 128. This comes primarily from the new for 1996 ODBII software having the ability to lean out the above 6000 rpm fuel curve.
Even with the probability that most of the owners have changed engines or actually shaved the head to achieve the 9.0:1 CR, the variation in fuel mapping still provides a bit of an advantage to the 96/97 cars over the 94-96 cars. How much of an advantage is hard to say, but they obviously will have some advantage if they have the 94-97 1.8's all running the same restrictor across the board.

Z-MAN Verified Driver
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I think having the same gears for all cars is a good idea but I think 50 lbs is too much.

I would support a 25 lb increase.

Z-Man

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by wrc2tuning #31:
Drago,

quote:
In 1996 the peak HP rating of the Miata 1.8 motor was raised to 133 hp from 128. This comes primarily from the new for 1996 ODBII software having the ability to lean out the above 6000 rpm fuel curve.
Even with the probability that most of the owners have changed engines or actually shaved the head to achieve the 9.0:1 CR, the variation in fuel mapping still provides a bit of an advantage to the 96/97 cars over the 94-96 cars. How much of an advantage is hard to say, but they obviously will have some advantage if they have the 94-97 1.8's all running the same restrictor across the board.
hmmmm..
How many 94/95 cars are out there that have a far better air:fuel ratio than any 96/97 in existance?

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
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2006-2007 Mid-West Division
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EAST STREET RACING

springfielddyno Verified Driver
Runoffs "MOVE OF THE RACE" (headlights)

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some...

wrc... drago's right. the time for a bigger plate for the 94/95 is long gone...

He also seems to be asking questions he knows the answer too.

Where's the runoffs data? you smac guys need to obtain it...

--------------------
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Sam H.
www.springfielddyno.com

WChristian 2
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I guess the time for the smaller plate to be fixed to the 94/95 engine is now then [Smile]

 
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