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Author Topic: Passenger Door modifications
Patrick Strehl Verified Driver
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Year : 1991
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Based on the NASA specs, can the passenger side window and hardware be removed?

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Great Lakes SM Series Director

d mathias Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/spec_miata_rules.pdf

Kyle Burkhardt
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Patrick:

Where's all the GL SM guys for Autobahn?

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Kyle Burkhardt
NASA Midwest
#12 SM

rmgroth Series Champ
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quote:
The door window glass, window operating mechanism, and inside door latch/lock operating
mechanism may be removed and the inner door structural panel may be modified, but not
removed. The stock side impact beam and the outside door latch/lock operating mechanism shall
not be removed or modified. This gutting of the door shall only be made if roll cage incorporates
NASCAR-style side protection extending into the door.

You can remove the glass and the mechanism, as it is a safety issue, however you can not cut the door unless your cage has Nascar style bars.

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Ryan Groth
#52 SM
NASA Midwest Series Director

Patrick Strehl Verified Driver
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Thanks Ryan, that's what I thought. Kyle, looks like a lot of the Great Lakes guys burnt up all their tires. [Wink]

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Great Lakes SM Series Director

cam Verified Driver
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Just for clarity, what is the SCCA version of this rule. I just scanned the on-line version of the GCR and did not find the passenger door window rule.

TIA

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SCCA_Racer
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Year : 1991
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SCCA-2010
GCR-88
9.D. Side Protection:
Two (2) side tubes connecting the front and rear hoops across both door openings are mandatory. Door side tubes may extend into the door. NASCAR-style side protection, or one bar bisecting another to form an X is permitted. The door window glass, window operating
mechanism, inner door trim panel, armrest, map pockets, and inside door latch/lock operating mechanism may be removed and the inner door structural panel may be modified, but not removed to facilitate this
type of side protection. The stock side impact beam and the outside door latch/lock operating mechanism shall not be removed or modified.

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Joshua Fine
SCCA member 323214 since 2003
Novice Permit in 2010
Racing 2011

Sphinx Verified Driver
M. Yusuf Mohamed

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quote:
Originally posted by SCCA_Racer:
SCCA-2010
GCR-88
9.D. Side Protection:
Two (2) side tubes connecting the front and rear hoops across both door openings are mandatory. Door side tubes may extend into the door. NASCAR-style side protection, or one bar bisecting another to form an X is permitted. The door window glass, window operating
mechanism, inner door trim panel, armrest, map pockets, and inside door latch/lock operating mechanism may be removed and the inner door structural panel may be modified, but not removed to facilitate this
type of side protection. The stock side impact beam and the outside door latch/lock operating mechanism shall not be removed or modified.

Not sure where that language came from but the language in the current GCR (through Nov 2010) is somewhat different:

"In American Sedan, Improved Touring, Showroom
Stock, Spec Miata, and Touring the door window glass, window operating
mechanism, inner door trim panel, armrest, map pockets, and inside
door latch/lock operating mechanism may be removed and the inner
door structural panel may be modified, but not removed only if the door
bars extend into the door cavity. The stock side impact beam and the
outside door latch/lock operating mechanism shall not be removed or
modified unless specifically authorized in the category rules."

First, there should be a comma after "but not removed". Second, the language is unclear as to whether the last part "only if the door bars extend into the door cavity applies" to the entire sentence or only the portion permitting modification of the inner structural panel. And what's the "inner structural panel?"

I've been told that the rules gurus are interpreting this to say that you can remove everything, including the inside sheetmetal, except the crash beam (trim panel, motor, window, etc.) regardless of whether the bars extend into the door cavity.

This should be a fairly straight forward issue.

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Keith in WA Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I still give the people who maintain that document a whole lot of credit, even if it's obvious there's not one grade school English teacher in the bunch. [Wink]

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Keith Novak
(Will work for tires)

Sphinx Verified Driver
M. Yusuf Mohamed

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quote:
Originally posted by Keith in WA:
I still give the people who maintain that document a whole lot of credit, even if it's obvious there's not one grade school English teacher in the bunch. [Wink]

Amen on both counts.

If there was a comma after "may be removed," then we'd have two independent sentences with clarity. Or even easier, just make them two sentences and separately explain what the inner structure is.

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Sphinx Racing
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SCCA_Racer
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Sphinx,

As noted in my post that text was from the 2010 GCR page 88. I deleted out the "In American Sedan, Improved Touring, Show-room Stock, Spec Miata, and Touring" part since we are just talking Spec Miata on here. I don't know why I missed the "but not removed only if the door bars extend into the door cavity." in my copy paste. Anyway here is a copy paste from the GCR posted online without any editing of any kind. Sorry for any confusion I may have caused.

SCCA GCR 2010 (downloaded 11/10/2010)
D. SIDE PROTECTION
Two side tubes connecting the front and main hoops across both door openings are mandatory. NASCAR-style side protection or one bar bisecting another to form an X is permitted. Door side tubes may extend into the front door. In American Sedan, Improved Touring, Show-room Stock, Spec Miata, and Touring the door window glass, window operating mechanism, inner door trim panel, armrest, map pockets, and inside door latch/lock operating mechanism may be removed and the inner door structural panel may be modified, but not removed only if the door bars extend into the door cavity. The stock side impact beam and the outside door latch/lock operating mechanism shall not be removed or modified unless specifically authorized in the category rules.

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Joshua Fine
SCCA member 323214 since 2003
Novice Permit in 2010
Racing 2011

davew Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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[
I've been told that the rules gurus are interpreting this to say that you can remove everything, including the inside sheetmetal, except the crash beam (trim panel, motor, window, etc.) regardless of whether the bars extend into the door cavity.

[/QB][/QUOTE]


In correct, to legally remove the "interior door trim, sheet metal, window, hardware, etc." You MUST have Nascar style door bars that extend into the doors

Dave

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SAE113 Verified Driver
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now for the $64,000 question, is the little quarter glass considered "door window glass"?

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Steven Elicati
'92 Protege ITA#01
'94 Miata ITA#99

David Dewhurst
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quote:
Originally posted by SAE113:
now for the $64,000 question, is the little quarter glass considered "door window glass"?

For only $63,000.00, no [nope] the little quarter window is not a "door window". For SCCA please see the GCR glossary. [Wink]

For Spec Miata:

To improve driver exit through the window area, there is a SCCA rule that allows the drivers side vent window & vent window supporting frame may be removed as a pair. [yep] If removed, ducting may be in the passenger side vent window only.

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Have Fun [Wink]

David Dewhurst
CenDiv
Milwaukee Region
Spec Miata #14

SAE113 Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by David Dewhurst:
quote:
Originally posted by SAE113:
now for the $64,000 question, is the little quarter glass considered "door window glass"?

For only $63,000.00, no [nope] the little quarter window is not a "door window". For SCCA please see the GCR glossary. [Wink]

For Spec Miata:

To improve driver exit through the window area, there is a SCCA rule that allows the drivers side vent window & vent window supporting frame may be removed as a pair. [yep] If removed, ducting may be in the passenger side vent window only.

thanks for the change [Wink]

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Steven Elicati
'92 Protege ITA#01
'94 Miata ITA#99

dsrgr Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Was it ever clarified that you could also cut off the vent window frame that is left sticking up after removing the window and the rear frame that bolts to the door.

MazdaSteve Verified Driver
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Feel better Sphinxy?

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NER88 Verified Driver
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" You MUST have Nascar style door bars that extend into the doors"

Not quite! X bars or Nascar door bars can extend into the door

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Jerry

BrianW
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quote:
Originally posted by dsrgr:
Was it ever clarified that you could also cut off the vent window frame that is left sticking up after removing the window and the rear frame that bolts to the door.

From the SCCA GCR's:

i. Ducting may be added to provide fresh air to the driver compartment. This ducting shall be located in the driver and/ or passenger vent window area by means of a transparent/
GCR - 544
9.1.8. Spec Miata Class Specifications
alternate vent window material and duct with no modifications to the bodywork.
To improve driver exit through the window area, the driver vent window and vent window supporting frame may be removed as a pair. If removed, ducting may be in the passenger side vent window only.


From the NASA GCR's:
To improve driver exit through the window area, the driver vent window and vent window supports may be removed as a pair. If removed, ducting may be in the passenger side vent window only.

So you are allowed to remove the driver side vent window and support bracket only. Not the passenger side vent window, that must remain in place.

Sphinx Verified Driver
M. Yusuf Mohamed

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quote:
Originally posted by davew:
[
I've been told that the rules gurus are interpreting this to say that you can remove everything, including the inside sheetmetal, except the crash beam (trim panel, motor, window, etc.) regardless of whether the bars extend into the door cavity.


In correct, to legally remove the "interior door trim, sheet metal, window, hardware, etc." You MUST have Nascar style door bars that extend into the doors

Dave [/QB][/QUOTE]

I've seen numerous cars that have the passenger door gutted, save for the impact beam that have X type side protection, not NASCAR bars that extend into the cavity. No one has been protested for it that I know of, no one is likely to want to protest someone else over it, and I don't see a mad rush to put that stuff back into the doors. Let's get rid of it once and for all.

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Keith in WA Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I do remember a post by a regional SM directorish something or other where their position was that for safety, the door glass may be removed regardless.

I don't see the rules written that way but it's not worth arguing. I don't see the average regional Joe protesting it, and I don't see a lot of runnoffs cars without bars that extend into the door.

That almsot makes it a moot point.

Could someone protest it? Probably. Would they risk being persona non grata at paddock BBQs and having their drivers suit filed with gear oil. Probably.

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Keith Novak
(Will work for tires)

wheel Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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This is something that can be cleaned up by the SMAC and then the CRB. We had the same problem, with ASedan, and it was fixed in short order. Somebody write a letter and get it on the agenda.
wheel

BrianW
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In the SCCA Texas division, Brett Gabriel got moved from P1 to P4 for not having the passenger side vent window in place. They also docked him for not having the steering lock disabled. So it seems they will make a point of it if they feel like it.

dsrgr Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Thanks for the response BrianW, but it didn't address my question. After you remove the vent window glass and the frame that is toward the rear of the car, you are left with the frame sticking up with a sharp point that held the front of the vent window glass. I remember a discussion sometime in the past where some folks said they cut it off and "rules be damned" because they were tired of it sticking them. I was just wondering if it was ever clarified that it was legal to do so and what others had done with it. Sorry to highjack the thread...

wheel Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Yes. That is part of the window frame that may be removed.

   

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