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Author Topic: F1 spoiler/ what do you think about contact?
Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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I watched in amazement as Vettel and Webber collided and ended Vettels day and ruined Webbers pending race win..
I watched the contact several times, I can't see how it was NOT Vetels fault? It appears that Red Bull is backing Vettel. Looks like Weber better find a new team.
Jim

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I am a big Vettel fan, and with that said I definitely think Webber pinched him off. NO reason to run all the way to the inside like that. At the end though, it was Vettel who moved over.

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I too watched the vid several times and agree with you Jim, Webber might want to look for a new team. Might make for an interesting remainder of the season though.

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Vettle had no choice but to pull along side Webber. Webber was slow out of the turn, and Vettle would have had to check up if he did not pull along side. It was not an aggressive move.

Anybody else notice Webber inexplicably lets off way before the braking zone while they were intertwined?

Vettle was half a car ahead and pulling away when he started to move over to make set up for the next turn. IMHO, it was a reasonable move with which a reasonable driver would expect his teammate to cooperate. It's not like moving over took Webber by surprise.

After watching the video again, I'm doubly convinced it was Webber's fault. Vettle was trying to move him over, but didn't move over enough to make contact. The contact was INITIATED by Webber when he let off the throttle, which caused the tires to touch. Vettle didn't have a chance.

Webber is a weenie. His restrained demeanor during the interview was guilt.

-Juan

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Couldn't disagree more. I'm not sure what video you guys were watching. Webber's car did not move. Sure he took him to the inside. He's leading the race and the championship. Is he supposed to move out of the way??? Vetel made the move to the right that caused the contact. The fact that the team is backing Vetel just shows that he is their favorite and that more than anything proves that Weber's time with the team is short.

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I don't think you expect a move like Vettels if you are Webber and you are his TEAMMATE.... Not aggressive? I see Weber going straight, never moving Vettel to the grass, the only person moving left or right was Vettel. Words like "moving over" and team mate can never be used in the same sentence IMO. He violated the first rule of F1, He took out his team mate. Had it been Hamilton, it still would have been bad, just wouldn't have looked quite as stupid! [Wink]
I was a Vettel fan, but after this race,I am backing Weber all the way....I think it is a moot point, with straights in Canada and improving McClaren, the title will end up being Hamiltons.. I am rooting for Button, but I imagine it will be Hamilton.
Jim

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Wait, what position are you taking Drago? Your first post says you can't see how it WAS Vettel's fault, your second post says it was his faul...

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Vettel lost the constructors and the championship for Red Bull. Dumb move by Vettel, always the responsibility of the overtaking driver to make it clean. Webber maintained his line and Vettel got frustrated. Hamilton and Button dueled a little later in the race without any contact. The mercedes have closed the gap with Red Bull anyways. Can't wait to see what happen in Montrael!

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The contact was caused by Webber lifting off the throttle so his front tire touched Vettel's rear tire. Watch Webber's in-car video. Why is Webber lifting off the throttle there? There was plenty of space between the cars side-by-side when their tires touched front to back.

Webber took Vettel out, not the other way around.

-Juan

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quote:
Originally posted by Sean Allen:
Wait, what position are you taking Drago? Your first post says you can't see how it WAS Vettel's fault, your second post says it was his faul...

Sorry.. 100% Vettels fault IMO

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quote:
Originally posted by Juan Pineda:
The contact was caused by Webber lifting off the throttle so his front tire touched Vettel's rear tire. Watch Webber's in-car video. Why is Webber lifting off the throttle there? There was plenty of space between the cars side-by-side when their tires touched front to back.

Webber took Vettel out, not the other way around.

-Juan

I don't know Juan? Maybe because he didn't have the ability of watching it in slow motion 7-8 times? Maybe he was concerned about locking wheels with his team mate and one of them going airborne. You argument doesn't hold water. What you are basically saying is that Webber lifted on purpose so that Vettels rear wheel could hit his front? Even if he had the time to think, which he didn't. Anyone who has seen more than one F1 race in their life knows that rear wheel beats front wheel every time but this one... So I don't buy it. Again, Vettels fault [Big Grin]

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There's no reason for Webber to lift off at that point. It has nothing to do with reflexes. And if it did, these guys have plenty enough to handle this type of situation. Fact of the matter is that despite Vettle encouraging his teammate to move over, he did not make side-to-side contact.

The data shows Webber did wrong. That's why the team is backing Vettel.

-Juan

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Meh...just watched it myself. Sorry Juan, to take out a car by lifting? I don't buy that. It was not a traditional brake check. Watching the slow-mo and the in-cars it is obvious (to me!) that Webber gave Vettel JUST ENOUGH room down the inside (but no more, perfect) and Vettel moved right before he had completed the pass. Vettel initiated the contact.

That said, neither one gave the other any extra room. The team bosses should yell at both of them at length.

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Has anyone considered that maybe Webber was lifting in an attempt to give way and let Vettel make a clean pass?

Everything happened so fast and I find it hard to believe that Webber would lift to intentionally cause contact.

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quote:
Originally posted by Juan Pineda:
The contact was caused by Webber lifting off the throttle so his front tire touched Vettel's rear tire. Watch Webber's in-car video. Why is Webber lifting off the throttle there? There was plenty of space between the cars side-by-side when their tires touched front to back.

Webber took Vettel out, not the other way around.

-Juan

Maybe he lifted to let Vettel by?

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quote:
Originally posted by Juan Pineda:
The contact was caused by Webber lifting off the throttle so his front tire touched Vettel's rear tire. Watch Webber's in-car video. Why is Webber lifting off the throttle there? There was plenty of space between the cars side-by-side when their tires touched front to back.

Webber took Vettel out, not the other way around.

-Juan

Maybe he lifted to let Vettel by?
You beat me to it Sam

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I went back and looked, not sure he even lifted? Anyone still have it to look at? Seems like rear wheels touched and sounds like a decel in Webber's car and from Vettels car at the same time, engine RPM sound seems to pick up?
Whatever the case, I agree with Watts...

Not sure how we can all draw such different conclusions.. It's obvious, all agreeing that Vettel is at fault are correct
[Wink] [Big Grin] [Big Grin]

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On F1.com Mark Webber said he was told to Turn his fuel down to conserve but Vettel was not told because he "saved fuel earlier" Which he claims gave Vettel the better run into T8. Louis Hamilton was told the same thing by his team. The broadcast team speculated that it might be a effort by the team to give Button an advantage. Post race Button said he was told the same by the team.

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quote:
Originally posted by D Watts:
Meh...just watched it myself. Sorry Juan, to take out a car by lifting? I don't buy that.

This is open wheel. The dynamics are very different than production cars -- the game most of us play. We don't usually intertwine wheels.


quote:
Originally posted by SamBarnett:
Everything happened so fast and I find it hard to believe that Webber would lift to intentionally cause contact.

Vettel was Webber's biggest challenger. They were tied going in. Machiavelli would have loved the setup.

Watch Webber's in-car (time ~1:46):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lqwx7w6i1HQ


Webber was playing games. Maybe he didn't mean the exact outcome, but whatever he intended backfired.

-Juan

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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
I went back and looked, not sure he even lifted? Anyone still have it to look at? Seems like rear wheels touched and sounds like a decel in Webber's car and from Vettels car at the same time, engine RPM sound seems to pick up?

Jim, Front of Vettel's rear tire contacted back of Webber's front tire. Webber is carefully modulating the throttle as they are intertwined. To me, it sounds like he's aiming at that rear tire.

And with regards to your statement that rear tire wins, I think it's better stated that the leading tire usually wins. This is because the trailing tire usually launches over the leading tire because of the direction of rotation. In this case, the leading tire was Webber's front tire because the wheels were intertwined. That's why it was a better bet for Webber in the case of contact.

Sure looks like Webber is aiming at Vettel's rear tire.

-Juan

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Juan,
If Webber was trying for Vettel's rear tire. He must be a mind reader. The sudden move to the right by Vettel caused the contact. There is no way he could react that quickly. I feel that if anything Webber realized Vettel was not going to give up and started to lift to avoid the eventual contact at the turn in point.

Dennis

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This is a perfect case of the inexperienced vs. the experienced.

Vettel made too aggressive of a move and did not execute it properly. What the hell do you expect to happen if you are trying to pass your teammate who has led the whole entire race. And Webber was not even overly defensive, he held his racing line.

But like others said, we will have to wait till montreal. (where I will be, as I am every year for the race) so HA!

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Vettel's fault, all the way. Webber is notoriously hard to pass, but Vettel is the one who made the move that caused the contact. Webber held his line, a blocking line to be sure, but Vettel still could have missed him, if he hadn't turned right.

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You also have to consider that Webber had been told 2 laps previously to use the economy fuel map while Vettel was not. In a sport where there can be no "team orders" it would seem that Vettel had been given the green light by the team which explains why Helmut blamed Webber.

Here in CFR this would be explained as the faster guy was on his racing line and the slower guy should have used his mirrors and given racing room. [Big Grin]

Vettel at fault.

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Vettel's fault all the way.

Webber held his line. If you watch Webber's in-car his wheel only ever moves to the right (away from Vettel).

Vettel (by his own admission) lost control under braking and the car moved right on him. I don't think anyone turned into anyone else. It was just a mistake. A very costly and stupid mistake.

Team mates should never treat each other like that. Webber had no orders to give up the position and as the leader of an F1 race should not have rolled over when someone made their first pass attempt on him.

Webber did what he was supposed to do. He held his line and made the pass as difficult as possible. This IS racing, right?

Red Bull had better get their stuff together with their drivers. Blaming Webber is a very bad idea. At the very worst it's a "shared fault" incident and that would make a much smarter party line (even if it's not true).

If I were Webber this incident would figure highly in my memoirs.

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http://www.crash.net/f1/poll_results/92/who_wa..._vettel-webber_clash.html

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Vettel's fault because of the sudden move to the right, but Webber certainly didn't help matters by pinching Vettel toward the grass. Webber was NOT maintaining his racing line. They were going into a left hand turn. Webber should have been drivers right.

And how exactly was this Webber's "pending race win"? He was being passed when the incident occurred. If the contact had not occurred, he would have been in 2nd place.

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Because no one pinches anyone to the grass in F1, it's just Webber right? [Roll Eyes]

Christian Horner speaks:

http://www.formula1.com/news/interviews/2010/6/10860.html

quote:
Q: What happened on Lap 40 of the Turkish Grand Prix?
Christian Horner: We had a unique situation during the Turkish Grand Prix where the first four cars were separated by two seconds, with Mark having led every lap until Lap 40. The race was the fastest of the season to date with all four drivers pushing each other extremely hard. On Lap 38, Mark changed his mixture setting based on his fuel consumption to a slightly leaner mode, which had an average lap time loss of about 0.18 seconds, whilst maintaining the same revs. Sebastian had conserved more fuel than Mark during the race and therefore was able to run in a slightly better mode for an additional couple of laps. On Lap 38 and 39, Sebastianís pace picked up and he closed right up to the back of Mark while under considerable pressure from Hamilton behind. After a very strong run through Turn Nine, Sebastian got a run and strong tow and moved to the left to pass Mark. Mark held the inside line and adopted a defensive position, which he is entitled to do. When Sebastian was three quarters of the way past, he moved to the right. As Sebastian moved to the right, Mark held his position and the ensuing result was contact that resulted in Sebastian retiring, Mark damaging the front-end of his car and the team losing a one-two finish. Ultimately both drivers should have given each other more room.

There goes the whole Webber moved to take out Vettel theory.

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Though technically the actual incident was Vettel's fault, forward a couple of laps to see what Webber should have done (Hamilton/Button).

Webber is a super-aggressive defender--in my mind he is a dirty driver--so I'm glad he's having to pay for those aggressive moves. Staying to the inside for that long with Vettel coming in hot on the dirty and tight line makes no sense. He should have setup the over-under move instead of giving his teammate no hope, and I would say that even if Vettel hadn't moved out, there was a good chance at contact since Vettel was in the dirty line.

Webber didn't do himself any favors by driving the way he did. I don't feel sorry for him at all. In fact, I feel more sorry for Vettel. He qualified 3rd with a broken sway bar. Enough said.

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quote:
If the contact had not occurred, he would have been in 2nd place.
We'll never know if that's where he would have finished.

And what's with that stupid f'ing hat Vettel wore for his official photo? Evidence of poor judgement. He looks like a goofy dick.

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quote:
Originally posted by Dusty Bottoms:
Though technically the actual incident was Vettel's fault, forward a couple of laps to see what Webber should have done (Hamilton/Button).


You mean when Hamilton slid into Button at the apex and they banged front wheels? [Big Grin]

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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
quote:
Originally posted by Dusty Bottoms:
Though technically the actual incident was Vettel's fault, forward a couple of laps to see what Webber should have done (Hamilton/Button).


You mean when Hamilton slid into Button at the apex and they banged front wheels? [Big Grin]
That was a lot different. Button wasn't blocking and Hamilton was not trying to push Button out. It was incidental contact and minor b/c both were trying to avoid each other.

I was mostly referring to the original pass by Button into the last turns.

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You know my opinion of Hamilton, so I can't form an unbiased opinion [Big Grin]
Hamilton=real talent and real jerk

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I wouldn't say that the incident was all Vettel's fault.

If the incident was with another team you have to defend those points but when it's your teammate and you risk blowing the season some of the fault must go to you as well. If Webber had crashed out resulting in no points at all the team would have very little chance of winning the championship - he got really lucky...

As soon as Vettel was along side and still moving forward Webber should have moved to the right and set him for an over under - not continue to press a bad position.

In my opinion it's 51% Vettel and 49 Webber - the team has to find a way to get these guys to work together or they will not win the championship - even though they probably have the best cars - you can't be racing your teammate like that.

MZ

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There are no absolute rules about racing room. It goes by culture, series, and relationships. I love watching BTCC and the way they race. But I wouldn't want my club racing to be that way. And I judge incidents differently in those two cases.

You can look at the Vettel-Webber incident several different ways. On one hand, Webber could have done much more to avoid the contact and have a better result for the team. Watch how Hamilton and Button went wheel to wheel without crashing. They touched too, but didn't crash each other out. I personally think Webber was a dick to unnecessarily crash out his teammate. Webber lifts off the throttle, and the tires touch front to back. Webber could clearly see that they were intertwined, and would have known they would touch.

On the other hand, I find it fascinating that the outcome was quite favorable to Webber. The net result is his closest challenger is now a dozen points behind. And Webber is still leading the championship. Was it only dumb luck? Or was it a calculated risk that paid off? There are a lot of marbles at stake.

The video keeps getting taken down. Just search for Vettel Webber crash. Here's one that is still up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVl4hSH6xjM

-Juan

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I rewatched that clip a dozen times where Hamilton and Button were together at the apex when the announcers yelled "They touched!"

I don't believe they touched. The car closer to the apex (can't recall which one that was) jumped over the apex kerb, and that was the movement that made the announcers say the cars touched. I don't believe they ever did touch, though.

THAT was good clean racing!

I agree with Dusty Bottoms - Webber is a horrible defender and has a reputation as the hardest person to pass in F1. And that's not because he's crafty, but rather because he doesn't mind taking himself out in the process of keeping another car behind him. I think the contact ultimately was Vettel's fault because he turned into Webber (sorry Juan, I've watched the video in slo-mo and think Webber tire touches Vettel's barge board side to side at EXACTLY the same time the tires touch front to back) but Webber held him to the inside more than was necessary. The guy had a HUGE run and had every right to pull beside him to attempt a pass under braking.

Cheers,

Dean

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Juan Pineda Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Well if the contact had only been with the barge board, MAYBE the outcome would have been better. But as it was, Webber ensured that the contact was more significant.

More evidence Webber is a weenie:


http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84093


"Webber: Please can you ask those faster cars to slow down so that I can finish ahead of them?"

-Juan

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Don't believe everything you read in the press.

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quote:
"They are probably not going to be down the pub for a drink together, but they will continue to work professionally in the manner that they have done in the forthcoming races. They work for the team at the end of the day and they know what the rules are."
[rolling on floor laughin]

Isn't that almost the same quote back in the Alonso-Hamilton days at McClaren after the qualifying incident?

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yes, I think so.. I don't think they have had that drink yet two years later:)

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After reading this whole thread and watching the crash a few dozen times, I still just cannot understand the Webber haters and the Vettel lovers. How can you watch this and blame Webber for the accident. Granted, Webber was being a weenie asking for his teamate to slow down the lap before. But the actual crash...

I was trying to think about this as it would apply to our SCCA passing guidelines, though I know they aren't relevant to F1. Webber made one move (not two) to the middle of the track, then drove in a straight line. Vettel had a run on him and room to make the pass before reaching the apex. Vettel as the passing driver should have been responsible to make a clean pass (SCCA style). Vettel pulled to the inside with his momentum, then turned into Webber halfway through the pass. How is any of this Webber's fault?

I would prefer the move Webber made. It would be nice in SM if a competitor made just one move in front of me, then drove in a very predictable trajectory from there. The amount of darting back and forth, taking people to the grass on the inside, trying to block a braking zone that I see happen in SM and then the amount of Webber bashing here just doesn't add up for me.

In my opinion, this accident was caused 100% by Vettel's ego. He is supposed to be the #1 Red Bull driver, not Webber. "How dare Webber out drive him so much this season? This has to end. This is my team and this is my corner. Out of my way jack---!"

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Webber's decision to take out his teammate (and risk taking himself out) was brilliant. Too bad for Vettel that he fell for it.

Webber converted what would have been a 7-13 trailing point position behind his closet competitor into a 15 point lead. This is a much better result than he could have achieved driving, given the realities of his fuel and tire situation.

If you are trying to find fault in a passing move here, you are off the mark. That's not what this altercation was all about. This was all about a crafty racer using strategy and playing the odds.

-Juan

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I don't have a high opinion of Webber (or his defensive driving tactics), but I don't think for a minute that he -- in a calculating manner -- waited for Vettel to interlock wheels so Webber could lift, causing the wheels to touch and -- hopefully -- take Vettel out. With the very real chance that Vettel's car would get launched and end up on top of Webber.... I think that theory is plain wacky.

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Webber is not shy about contact. He has demonstrated that often enough and for much less to gain. He certainly had enough time to react to avoid contact, or to minimize the consequences, but chose not to.

Webber certainly didn't know how it was going to play out, but at the moment that Vettel pulled up along side him, the *odds* favored his choice to risk contact. The calculation of the consequences of contact (with Vettel and others) to his points position was certainly calculated ahead of the race, and he went into it armed with this knowledge.

-Juan

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Jaun,
You certainly have a devious mind.

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And he can read minds too! Scary.

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quote:
Originally posted by wheel:
Juan,
You certainly have a devious mind.

Better devious than naive for a racer. [Wink]

Here's the analysis of the odds:

In case of contact, the worst thing that could have happened for Webber's points is for him to DNF and Vettel to continue. Then it would be Webber that would be down a 15 points. Next would be for both to DNF, in which case he would still be within 5 points of his primary competitor -- neutral. Next they both continue -- neutral again, although better vs. the McLarens. Next is what happened, Vettel to DNF.

Thus only one out of four cases here is against Webber. And one case has a spectacular gain that he could not have achieved otherwise. Perhaps Webber also factored into the calculation that he was in control of the degree of contact.

So why risk contact? The alternative would be to let Vettel through. Webber knew he had nothing to fight back with. Further, he knew he was falling back vs. the McLarens, so it was possible that he would have finished fourth vs. Vettel's 1st, which would put him 13 points behind. (He didn't know at the time about the McLaren's low fuel situation.)

Under the circumstances risking contact was a very good BET. I emphasize BET here, because a favorable outcome was not guaranteed, but rather more likely than the less favorable alternatives.

-Juan

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Let's turn it around and look at Vettel's motivations in the incident.
Vettel realizing Webber was not going to give up the corner had two options.
First, stay to the left with no hope of making the corner running off course and coming back on in fourth place. Two, making to decision to move right in a demonstration of his anger taking out his rival and teammate keeping the points fight close. But it backfired on him.

Dennis

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Wow Juan. You really give Webber a ton of credit to calculate all of this and plan his move or non move all at 150+ mph. He must be the fastest thinker on the planet.

I agree Steve D's post. I just can't buy that this was a clever trap set by Webber and the Vettel fell for it and that the plan worked perfectly. Not practical or logical. The guy made one move to make it difficult to pass. As the lead car, he had that right... one move. Vettel could have gone side by side down to the apex and forced the issue. Instead, HE... Vettel... chose to take his teammate out. Vettel at fault 100% and all due to ego.

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MCH - While I agree with much of what you say, the SCCA rules you're referencing are your interpretation of the rules, not the actual rules. Can you point to "one move" or equivalent language anywhere in the GCR?

Also, Webber didn't have to figure out the season points in his head at that moment. Those teams have hundreds of people on the them, and it's at least one person's job to have figured out EVERY SINGLE PERMUTATION of finishing order with the drivers in contention and let the drivers know well in advance who they have to beat and by how much... [Smile]

Juan, I agree with all of the game theory, odds, and everything else you're saying except one small detail. You seem to be the only person posting in any forum that looks at the video and sees Webber intentionally lifting as the cause of the contact. Pretty much everyone else (including me) see Vettel move right and hit Webber. I think Webber has a lot of fault in not racing his teammate who was clearly faster AND about to be passed by the opposing team more conservatively, but Vettel *clearly* initiated the actual contact. If your theory is correct, it would have had to be Webber making CERTAIN there was contact that took Vettel out, not just making some sort of contact more likely by "kind of" squeezing Vettel. In that case, he's putting the worst case and best case for him on about equal footing, right? If he does that, he's not too smart.

I love conspiracy theories!!! [Smile] [Smile]

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Juan Pineda Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by dtfastbear:
Also, Webber didn't have to figure out the season points in his head at that moment. Those teams have hundreds of people on the them, and it's at least one person's job to have figured out EVERY SINGLE PERMUTATION of finishing order with the drivers in contention and let the drivers know well in advance who they have to beat and by how much... [Smile]

Exactly. All the heavy lifting was done pre-race. Further F1 drivers are the top racers in the world. You can bet that they are capable of much more than just turning the wheel and making an apex. I think plenty of successful club racers also have enough smarts to think strategy while driving.


quote:
Originally posted by dtfastbear:
Juan, I agree with all of the game theory, odds, and everything else you're saying except one small detail. You seem to be the only person posting in any forum that looks at the video and sees Webber intentionally lifting as the cause of the contact. Pretty much everyone else (including me) see Vettel move right and hit Webber. I think Webber has a lot of fault in not racing his teammate who was clearly faster AND about to be passed by the opposing team more conservatively, but Vettel *clearly* initiated the actual contact. If your theory is correct, it would have had to be Webber making CERTAIN there was contact that took Vettel out, not just making some sort of contact more likely by "kind of" squeezing Vettel. In that case, he's putting the worst case and best case for him on about equal footing, right? If he does that, he's not too smart.

Not exactly. While I personally think that Webber helped to make the contact more favorable for him, the favorable odds did not rely on that. The thing that I see that is so telling is that Webber did not react at all to avoid the contact. There was plenty of time for him to do that. We are talking F1 (and karting) standards, not club racing. You can argue that Webber was entitled to hold his line, but if he did that without considering the consequences, then he would be just plain stupid. And I suspect that's not the case.

My theory is that Webber went into that situation with the knowledge that in terms of points, he was better off risking and accepting contact than letting Vettel by. So he had already decided he was going to stick it out no matter what. That's why he was so aggressive about.

Obviously the outcome turned out to be the best of the different outcomes. Maybe this was due in part to Webber's driving, maybe luck. But that spectacular result was not his only favorable one, as three of the four contact outcomes were still better than letting Vettel by, and falling prey to the McLarens, and possibly finishing 4th.

Webber's situation was not unlike playing a backgame. While there is chance involved in Backgammon, and success in any particular game is not assured, seemingly favorable rolls of the dice and winning are not just dumb luck.

-Juan

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