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Author Topic: F1 and IRL
d mathias Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Ferrari fined $100,000 US for team orders. Good!

Elio Castroneves DQ'd for blocking. Complete bullshiz!

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Saw the IRL race. I still don't know what they saw in T1...

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Glenn Davis

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I think they saw a way to artificially create interest.

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Wow , the Irl made Scca stewards look good.

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they need to sit Vettel down a few races as well..
Someone needs to tell that boy to just go straight at the start, these chops are dangerous and not working out that well [Smile]

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Jim Drago
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quote:
Originally posted by Chris70:
Wow , the Irl made Scca stewards look good.

Easy there, Chris. SCCA stewards just follow the manual. The problem is the stewards's manual is completely idiotic.

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Motor City Hamilton
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http://www.speedtv.com/video/popup/260806355001/595125382

In case you didn't see the "blatent" block. 200 foot wide runway, the guy moves 5 feet and it's called blocking.

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It was not about any move.
The IRL rules state that the lead driver MUST take the normal line into the corner. Helio didn't. Easy call.
STUPIDEST rule in racing but it's in the book and all the drivers know it.

Ex Indycar mechanic

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Know The Rules. That's the lesson for the day. If you know the rules (and more importantly, if you know how the people enforce the rules) you won't be penalized.

In IRL, Barnhart told everyone to define their line. That was the rule. Helio had defined his as the inside line, and then Barnhart thought he changed it to a middle line entering the corner. It's pretty standard Barnhart. He's pretty strict in definitions and seems to err on the side of penalizing. So if you know the rule and know how Barnhart enforces rules, you'll know what you can or can't do.

Bottom line, if Helio had never taken the inside line, Power would have taken the inside line and the position. And if Helio hadn't moved toward mid-track when Power moved to the outside, Power probably still would have had the position since Helio wouldn't have been able to maintain as much speed. So if you "check your work" using those two scenarios, Helio blocked--under the rules.

On Ferrari--they're idiots for making it so blatant. The rule is no team orders. There are plenty of ways to orchestrate the finish without being so obvious. So again, know the rules. And I put this on Massa. The manner in which he executed the order is what garnered the penalty. Massa needed to either man up and disregard the order or bite the bullet, be a "Ferrari man" and execute it subtly. He did neither and cost the team $100k.

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quote:
Originally posted by Eau Rouge:
It was not about any move.
The IRL rules state that the lead driver MUST take the normal line into the corner. Helio didn't. Easy call.
STUPIDEST rule in racing but it's in the book and all the drivers know it.

Ex Indycar mechanic

The rules actually now require the lead car to choose a line/lane. What was odd to me is the definition of a lane change on an 80' wide runway.

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Glenn Davis

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quote:
Originally posted by Gibscreen:

Bottom line, if Helio had never taken the inside line, Power would have taken the inside line and the position. And if Helio hadn't moved toward mid-track when Power moved to the outside, Power probably still would have had the position since Helio wouldn't have been able to maintain as much speed. So if you "check your work" using those two scenarios, Helio blocked--under the rules.


I disagree 100%! By definition then, Power blocked Dixon as well and far more clear cut.

Helio held his line and moved left all of 4 ft or so? No to block, but to make a better entry, at that point he was 50 ft from Power? Never even impeded his progress, let alone block? Even left plenty of room to go safely two wide through the corner. [Frown]
terrible call
Jim

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Jim Drago
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You're disagreeing AND trying to make my point Drago? [Wink] As you stated, Helio moved left. Under the rules, it doesn't matter whether it's 4 feet or 40 feet, he moved left. He defined his line, and then moved off that line to make a better entry. And that's the point. Barnhart doesn't think Helio should be able to have it both ways. Either choose an inside line and compromise your corner entry, or take a mid- or outside line and give Power the inside. Either way Helio gets passed.

And whether Power blocked Dixon is irrelevant since Dixon took the position.

So it still comes down to knowing the rules and knowing who is enforcing the rules. As soon as I saw Helio's line change, I thought to myself that Helio was going to get penalized. Not because I thought he should get penalized, but because them's the rules, and Barnhart is enforcing the rules.

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quote:
Originally posted by Gibscreen:

And whether Power blocked Dixon is irrelevant since Dixon took the position.


Should have nothing to do with penalty whatsoever, contradictory to the rest of your point as well. Sounds like the Inquisition days of penalty enforcement! [Wink]
There was no block... If they want to say he was guilty of driving not driving a straight line +/- 1 degree down the entire straight, he is guilty [Big Grin]
that is what you get when you official has never driven a race car.

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Jim Drago
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I knew you were going to go there! Haha. I'm not a fan of results-based penalties (the NBA is rife with them). But I really don't want to see more penalties for blocking.

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Rob Gibson
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The penalty for Ferrari should have been loss of championship points not 0.00000001% of the budget of Italy... I mean... err... Fiat... no wait... I mean... Ferrari.

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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:

that is what you get when you official has never driven a race car. [/QB]

yep, but mostly what you get when these fellas are tearing up equipment and themselves on the ovals ...
The rule was written back in '03, the car owners (Penske included) were all for it. Specifically written for the ovals where these guys were drifting up high or down low to block, er, 'impede' the runs from behind and were causing major wrecks and season ending injuries to themselves. It says pick your lane upon entry and stay there until corner exit.
It was rarely enforced since then on the ovals and even fewer times enforced on the road courses. Remember when Paul Tracy and Sea Bass went at it back in '06, race after race those two would block, chop, bang and punt each other off with no penalties.
Hee-lee-oh got "deliveranced" on that one...
[Eek!]

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I think they gve the points penalty a few races back for the Alonso move on Kubica, who retired two laps later. [Big Grin]

I agree though, they should have twice the points gain from Alonso. $100,000 fine is like $5 speeding tickets and no points.

Had they made it look better, there wouldnt have been a penalty, but hard to e that much aof a team player if your Massa IMO.

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Jim Drago
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Massa's got million of reason$ to be a team player. He was in control of how to execute the order, and he chose the petulent kid "I'll show everyone that I was told to move aside" route. Very unprofessional. Magnanimous my ass!

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Mike Anzaldi
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quote:
Originally posted by Gibscreen:
Know The Rules. That's the lesson for the day. If you know the rules (and more importantly, if you know how the people enforce the rules) you won't be penalized.

On Ferrari--they're idiots for making it so blatant. The rule is no team orders. There are plenty of ways to orchestrate the finish without being so obvious. So again, know the rules.

here we go again. sounds as if the idea is to know the rules so you can decide how best to cheat. if the rule is "no team orders", then why would a team need to know the myriad of ways to "orchestrate the finish"? bottom line...loose the rule. it's a half-billion dollar investment into research, development and marketing. i think they should be able to choose which of their machines gets the nod for the checker in a 1-2 situation. massa WAS slower. bravo to them both for not balling up the machines, trying to be the hero for the week. as for massa...walking around pouting because he didn't get to win looks stupid. it's not club racing. he's an employee of a company that is trying to sell cars. he did the job. he should just fly home on his private jet and cry about his life in private. letting him win that race would be a waste of 7 points, period. any claim that F1 would be a proper sport if they just squashed team orders is silly. F1 is what it is, for better or worse. there is too much at stake to allow a couple of race drivers license to sort it out on track. if you ask me.

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Mike

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quote:
Originally posted by G. Davis:
quote:
Originally posted by Eau Rouge:
It was not about any move.
The IRL rules state that the lead driver MUST take the normal line into the corner. Helio didn't. Easy call.
STUPIDEST rule in racing but it's in the book and all the drivers know it.

Ex Indycar mechanic

The rules actually now require the lead car to choose a line/lane. What was odd to me is the definition of a lane change on an 80' wide runway.
No you are incorrect.
The rules say that you CANNOT be on the inside line unless you are the overtaking car.
There is no choice of line for the leading car. The leading car MUST take the outside line.

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quote:
Originally posted by Eau Rouge:
No you are incorrect.
The rules say that you CANNOT be on the inside line unless you are the overtaking car.
There is no choice of line for the leading car. The leading car MUST take the outside line.

This is the correct interpretation. Check the IRL site and watch the video of the drivers meeting that morning. Their rule is the car being overtaken may not take the inside lane. May be a dumb rule but it is their rule. Helio screwed up...

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So...at the start of the race, pole sitter is on the inside of T1 not trying to pass anyone...should he and all of the drivers on the inside half of T1 be pulled in for a stop and go? Isn't that the rule? If you're not trying to pass you can't be on the inside?

IRL needs to fix it's rules if they're going to continue expanding to road courses...

As for F1...dock points from Alonzo and Ferrari manufacture points. BTW - It was Massa who made it so obvious as his personal protest...I"m sure Ferrari wanted him to make it less obvious.

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Who cares about IRL? (or GP2)

As to team orders in F1, they should do away with the rule. Do you have a problem with it because it was so blatant? Think about it...all these guys are alpha-types and they need to show how good they are. They have been made to prove it all their lives. Massa did it and Rubens did it. Who cares. The order...yeah it sucks for them.

Is it better to put old parts on the #2 driver's car? Is it better to ask him to conserve fuel? Do you hold one 1/2 second longer in the pits? Do you let them race instead? All of the above have happened this year.

If you're not aware of all that going on, then why are you watching? Big effing deal. Team orders have been around FOREVER they are just executed differently. To show disgust now is only because it was so obvious and because it's not the team you're cheering for.

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RoninGT21
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That's the thing about team orders, nobody argues that they were never gone, but doing it in such an obvious manner is not right...

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As far as defining your line, how about Schumacher defining his line on the front strait vs. Massa last weekend? [Smile]

-Juan

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quote:
Originally posted by RoninGT21:
That's the thing about team orders, nobody argues that they were never gone, but doing it in such an obvious manner is not right...

Why? Why does it bother you that it is made obvious? It bothers me that people are OK with all sorts of ways to control the outcome of a race that are nefarious, but to be open about it is looked down upon. I still think it's a red team vs. the rest type of deal. Nobody was bitching when Red Bull was doing it earlier this year. Yeah, and Chris Horner will claim he lets his guys race, but would Vettel have caught up to Webber when they tangled up if they hadn't asked Webber to conserve fuel? Do you really think they had to conserve fuel?

The interviews before the Hungary race were excellent because you had guys that were open about what is going on. Kubica said basically, they work for the team. Webber said in effect, team orders have always been around and will always be around. Vettel said it wasn't his place to criticize. Good for them.

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Dusty Bottoms Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I'll add this, if you guys are OK with "conserve fuel" or a pit "mishap" as ways to control the outcome of the race, then you should not have any trouble with "Alonso is faster". They did not order him right? (haha) I'm sure in the paddock the discussion was, if one is clearly faster, you should let him by in order to ensure the team gets the win. I'm not sure Massa would have held off Alonso until the end of the race. Alonso was clearly faster and I think he only tried once because he knew the order would be coming.

What about pro drivers putting on a "hard fight" show for the crowd? Would it bother you to find out it was fake? It was a show for the crowd? Yeah it happens.

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"Your victory is tainted! Asterisk! Asterisk!!!"--Lisa Simpson

Dusty Bottoms Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Juan Pineda:
As far as defining your line, how about Schumacher defining his line on the front strait vs. Massa last weekend? [Smile]

-Juan

Do all Brazilians look alike to you? [Big Grin]

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"Your victory is tainted! Asterisk! Asterisk!!!"--Lisa Simpson

RoninGT21
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quote:
Originally posted by Dusty Bottoms:

Why? Why does it bother you that it is made obvious? It bothers me that people are OK with all sorts of ways to control the outcome of a race that are nefarious, but to be open about it is looked down upon. I still think it's a red team vs. the rest type of deal. Nobody was bitching when Red Bull was doing it earlier this year. Yeah, and Chris Horner will claim he lets his guys race, but would Vettel have caught up to Webber when they tangled up if they hadn't asked Webber to conserve fuel? Do you really think they had to conserve fuel?

The interviews before the Hungary race were excellent because you had guys that were open about what is going on. Kubica said basically, they work for the team. Webber said in effect, team orders have always been around and will always be around. Vettel said it wasn't his place to criticize. Good for them.
[/QUOTE]
well, I never said that I approve it... It's just you can't do anything about it really. It's a team sport, the only way to get rid of team tactic is to get rid of the teams... I'm a fan of Vettel so I'm a little bias on that matter with Webber and all the fuss about the team...

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Watching Vettel pout post-Hungarian GP - priceless. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, I didn't win.

I always thought Shumacher was an arrogant prick - now I think he's a dangerous, arrogant prick - retire already.

Go Webber!

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the more I watch F1 this year, the more I like ALMS...

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quote:
Originally posted by Dusty Bottoms:
quote:
Originally posted by Juan Pineda:
As far as defining your line, how about Schumacher defining his line on the front strait vs. Massa last weekend? [Smile]

-Juan

Do all Brazilians look alike to you? [Big Grin]
[Smile] Amusing mistake. More likely all ex schumacher Ferrari teammates.

Glad to see michael get punished. Wouldn't have minded a more severe penalty.

-Juan

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www.ArtOfRoadRacing.com Race Craft Clinic - Thunderhill - 30 Jan 2011

   

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