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Author Topic: New Tires for 2010
Juan Pineda Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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What is the story with the current RA1 supply? How long has it been out of production? When do the current inventories run out?

-Juan

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www.ArtOfRoadRacing.com Race Craft Clinic - Thunderhill - 30 Jan 2011

Mogren
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SCCA has a contract with TOYO. If the tires are not usable, the contract is void, IMHO.
Any spec class should have a tire that can run 10 to 20 cycles and slow down less than .1 per min. The SRF guys finally got a good tire that last.
There are a few tires that last and stay pretty even for less than 120$, Falken, Kumho and others. It doesnt matter,fast or slow, as long as that can be depended on to turn in, and last three weekends or more.
Spec tires that cost 200$ and last one weekend, will reduce the class numbers and move the cars to ITA.
Many do now.
MM

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Rich Verified Driver
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10 cycles within 1 tenth? One tenth is enough to make the difference between 1st and 4th on the grid in some fields. If I'm "pull out all the stops for every race Spec Miata racer" and I know I can bolt on a tenth per lap using tires with 1 cycle on them, or 10 cycles on them, then you better believe I'm going to use tires with the right number of cycles. A tenth per lap is 2 seconds over the course of a race.

Falken and Kumho weren't interested in the contract. Are you telling me that the RT-615 wouldn't need to be shaved to 1/32" to be at its fastest? Because if you believe that I've got a brand new joke about selling bridges to sell you...

What $200 tire are we running on now? Or are you referring to the $150-ish Hoosier that didn't get the contract?

There's a lot of hyperbole flying around about the R888. It has proven to be nearly as fast in raw lap time as the RA1 setting new records in some cases, and I for one am seeing similar life with a different and less-desirable wear pattern. But I'm lucky enough to be in the lightest car in the class and haven't had to deal with super-hot temperatures, so I accept that there may be people who are burning them up faster. Does that make them unusable? Hardly.

I'm not an advocate for the R888. Just the facts. "Just the facts, ma'am."

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Rich Wiese

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B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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What a cluster...

After about a dozen races so far this year, I can honestly say that I would have prefered to stay with them over the RA-1. I think I will have bought about the same number of sets as previous years. Now I have to worry about not buying too many... What a waste of time and money [Frown]

-bw

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Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
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Tom Sager Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Rich:
HOARD HOARD HOARD!

More star wars humor:

http://ackbar.ytmnd.com/

That's highly annoying especially after a night out.

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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The cluster I speak of was not directed to SCCA or anyone who made the decision. If I were in their shoes, I would have probably made the same decision based on the input recieved. But like Rich, the folks I know have yet to be witness to the claims that have come to be generally accepted as fact.

-bw

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Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
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Rich Verified Driver
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Rich Wiese

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D.B. Cutler Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Hi Bruce,

You seem to have figured out the R888s and are one of the few people singing their praises. That's ok and there's no problem there. I've heard the same thing from other guys that they don't see any problem with the tires.

However, there are a lot of guys struggling to figure out that tire and they are spending a lot of money to do so at a time when the economy is in the toilet. I for instance, buy at most, two full sets of tires for a season and that's it. If I have to buy one or two more sets just to figure out that I need more camber or less toe or whatever, that's a big deal for me and it results in me being able afford less races.

If the SCCA has decided to go back to a known quantity for next year, assuming that they really are the same RA1s, where's the harm in doing so ? I'm sure that they know that people now have R888s to use up so I'm sure that they will let use run both for the first few races. If Toyo has excess inventory or R888 that they want us to burn through then people can decide which one they want to run. If they want the slightly faster R888 then buy that, but if they want the longer lasting RA1s then they can use them too. (Kinda like open tires, huh ?)

I guess my point is that they've made a reasonable decision based on all of the feedback which they have received which treats all of the parties involved pretty fairly. I don't get why you're upset.

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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My disapointment with the whole thing is my personal opinion and since I get to express my opinion on this board like everyone else, that is how I feel.

We spent time and money to figure the tires, and now we will need to transition back, which will cost even more money, at least the RA-1 is a known quantity.

But, I am happy for those drivers that I represent in that didn't have to switch, as the only pain they had was worrying about what was to be spec'd after this month in our region. If I had my way, we'd just never switch tires again.

-bw

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Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
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soupy
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There's one sure way for nobody to HAVE to switch tires again. OPEN TIRE

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Charlie Campbell
Race Engineering
carbotech brakes

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Open tire means you have to switch tires every time a newer, hotter tire comes out.

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Stephen Hui - '95 SM #86, Northwest / Oregon Region SCCA

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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Drago kindly explained to me that this is still an entry level class. IMHO, Spec Miata should never have an open tire. Just think about how much more complicated that would be compared to this switch between tires with the same/similar compound. Implosion would be swift and complete [Smile]

-bw

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Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

Gatoratty Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Even with a Spec tire you will still have the front runners or people with money who will shave them to 1/32 and use a new set for qualifying and then the race. Having a tire that gets plenty of heat cycles from 4/32 means the rest of us can afford to race, maybe not at the front....but we can still race. The R-888 is a fast tire (Drago new lap record Sebring-long in Jan) it just doesn't last as long as the RA-1 (for some drivers). I would like to see open tire for regionals continue to give people choices. A lot of us race for fun and as a hobby, not to try to move up the ladder. SCCA needs to remember that this is the second largest field for a reason....low cost fun racing.

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Paul McLester

D.B. Cutler Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Paul's right but it's even worse than that. Front runners in Nationals get contingency money to use to buy more tires. So a good driver with a good car can keep himself in fresh tires for the whole season while the guys trying to catch him have to spend even more to catch up to him.

Since this is an entry level class here's my suggestion: Keep the contingency money coming but rather than give the "Toyo Bucks" to the front runners, make it a raffle and give away the money to anyone entered in the race. That would help to eliminate one of the sources of disparity between the haves and the have nots speed wise and it would make a lot of guys who finish mid pack of lower pretty freaken' happy. Plus, Toyo would certainly generate a bunch of good will throughout the field.

Here's a second suggestion but I don't know if this one is workable. Since we have a spec tire which has to be shaved, what about spec'ing that they have to be shaved to 4/32" ? The idea is to eliminate the ability to start on 1/32", 2/32" or 3/32" tires (ie: in theory starting on a "faster" shave).

Just some ideas to think about.

Steven Holloway Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by D.B. Cutler:
Here's a second suggestion but I don't know if this one is workable. Since we have a spec tire which has to be shaved, what about spec'ing that they have to be shaved to 4/32" ? The idea is to eliminate the ability to start on 1/32", 2/32" or 3/32" tires (ie: in theory starting on a "faster" shave).

Just some ideas to think about.

Interesting idea, but impossible to police. How can you tell that a tire that's at 2/32 now started at 4/32?

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, it's got electrical problems.

soupy
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I never understood this whole concept of rebates, coupons,buy one get one free, give-aways, contingencies. If you took all the money they spend on administering all them, and the deal? itself and lowered the price to where they make the same profit, we'd all win. And that applies to everything not just tires. [soapbox]

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Charlie Campbell
Race Engineering
carbotech brakes

Rich Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by D.B. Cutler:
[QB] Paul's right but it's even worse than that. Front runners in Nationals get contingency money to use to buy more tires. So a good driver with a good car can keep himself in fresh tires for the whole season while the guys trying to catch him have to spend even more to catch up to him.

Ha! [Smile]

quote:

Since this is an entry level class here's my suggestion: Keep the contingency money coming but rather than give the "Toyo Bucks" to the front runners, make it a raffle and give away the money to anyone entered in the race. That would help to eliminate one of the sources of disparity between the haves and the have nots speed wise and it would make a lot of guys who finish mid pack of lower pretty freaken' happy. Plus, Toyo would certainly generate a bunch of good will throughout the field.

LOL [laughing]

quote:

Here's a second suggestion but I don't know if this one is workable. Since we have a spec tire which has to be shaved, what about spec'ing that they have to be shaved to 4/32" ? The idea is to eliminate the ability to start on 1/32", 2/32" or 3/32" tires (ie: in theory starting on a "faster" shave).

ROFLMAO!!! [rolling on floor laughin]

Thanks for the laffs. FWIW, I don't really get why there is ANY contingency money in SM. Toyo and Mazda both have a lock on the class. But if it's there, it needs to go to the pointy end of the field. God save us from participation awards. [Smile] Then again, maybe it keeps people in the class? I don't know how I would feel about, say, SSB if suddenly SM didn't have contingency anymore. It would probably look more attractive.

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Rich Wiese

Spec Wrecker Ford

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I knew I was going to pay for that Lord Vadar crack...

spdmonkey Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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As someone that once had a tire deal with a manufacturer I can tell you that its nice, but not everything its cracked up to be. In fact i destroyed a race car as a result of my "deal" I was running a regional to check out "the other brand" and missed the setup and that led to one of those big crashes that people still talk about all the time after (what year is this...ok 2009..) 9 years. Just as if it happened last week. I had open tires then in SSB and Its the fairest way. I got a tire deal because it was open. I also got it because I put a proposal out stating what I would do for them. The tire companies don't come looking for you. At the time there were 5 brands to choose from and if we had open tires in SM there would be just as many again. That means choice as well as opportunity. Just because Hoosier is fastest does not mean everybody is going to run them. I guarantee that with 5 or 6 tire companies looking at the potential of large fields that dollars will be spent. Its the way things work. Thats why a guy like John Heinrecy stuck with Goodyear for all his T1, T2 and AS wins during his run about 6 or 7 years ago. Hoosiers won most races except when he showed up. When Goodyear got out he switched to Hoosier and won some more. I realize that the current majority wants spec tires, but in my mind thats because they don't understand what really happens and also they fear having to buy new tires every weekend or every session. Tire companies don't dump endless supplies on club racers. Nor do they do it in pro races. Its a myth. Just like the myth that spec tires keep costs down. Most of us just found that out the hard way.

db

Jerret Gerber
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Nobody likes change and that was a problem for the 888's,but for a guy that got his but handed to at national races last year to being competitive this year, I guess the RA1's are the preferred tire, I did like the RA1's better but the 888's leveled the playing field a little bit, I for one havn't had tire issues as much as everyone else, but this is only my second year of road racing so I'm still learning alot. Guess I get to throw all tire data away and start over again. Oh well its still a blast. See everyone at the sprints.

Rich Verified Driver
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Don't throw your tire data away just yet. The only things I did differently with these tires was to rotate them more frequently and increase pressures by ~4 psi.

--------------------
Rich Wiese

Spec Wrecker Ford

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quote:
Originally posted by spdmonkey:
As someone that once had a tire deal with a manufacturer I can tell you that its nice, but not everything its cracked up to be. In fact i destroyed a race car as a result of my "deal" I was running a regional to check out "the other brand" and missed the setup and that led to one of those big crashes that people still talk about all the time after (what year is this...ok 2009..) 9 years. Just as if it happened last week. I had open tires then in SSB and Its the fairest way. I got a tire deal because it was open. I also got it because I put a proposal out stating what I would do for them. The tire companies don't come looking for you. At the time there were 5 brands to choose from and if we had open tires in SM there would be just as many again. That means choice as well as opportunity. Just because Hoosier is fastest does not mean everybody is going to run them. I guarantee that with 5 or 6 tire companies looking at the potential of large fields that dollars will be spent. Its the way things work. Thats why a guy like John Heinrecy stuck with Goodyear for all his T1, T2 and AS wins during his run about 6 or 7 years ago. Hoosiers won most races except when he showed up. When Goodyear got out he switched to Hoosier and won some more. I realize that the current majority wants spec tires, but in my mind thats because they don't understand what really happens and also they fear having to buy new tires every weekend or every session. Tire companies don't dump endless supplies on club racers. Nor do they do it in pro races. Its a myth. Just like the myth that spec tires keep costs down. Most of us just found that out the hard way.

db

Free tire are free tires. Whether it's 20 for a season or 40 for the Runoffs alone. Those racing dollars are then freed up to spend on freshening, testing, crew, more spares etc.
No benefit to an affordable entry level class.

--------------------
-CJ Johnson

Jerret Gerber
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Yeah rich you are right, I'm kidding. I really don't care what tires we run, just as long as I can afford them and still be competitve. Everyone has helped us out this year and last to figure the tires out, you and Drago especially, so I have no gripes whatsoever. See you at the sprints should be exciting.

Jay Lutz
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I wonder if pricing will be bumped up on a tire "they no longer want to make"?? Jay

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"In our sport if you go out of bounds you're most likely not coming back" Michael Waltrip

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I'm all for a spec tire vs. an open tire. (trying to keep the class closer to spec) But the choice of that spec tire for regional races is still up to you, the racers, the members of the "Club" and not the contract that was signed by the club.

Not trying to incite a riot, but if SM in your region brings out 15+ cars, or is one of the biggest classes in your region, you, as a class have the power to vote on your own tire. Simply gather your class, ask for nominations for tire choices, vote on it and go with it.

Its a matter of economics, your Club (A group of people organized for a common purpose, especially a group that meets regularly) cannot afford to not have you run nor can they prevent the members of their club participate in the democratic process.

These are YOUR clubs, quit just blindly paying dues and following what the administrators have set out for you. Start by getting involved locally with your own class and make the class rules according to how your class wants them. If you are organized, then your region will either listen to your class or your class will find another sanctioning body to race with.

When organizations get too large and powerful that they don't or can no longer listen to its members effectively, that organization needs to be reorganized to refocus on its original intentions.

With all of that said, I have no fight in the tire wars. I have run the RA-1s for many years and they seemed good and I have run the R888 for 2 sessions and it seemed great out of the box, but haven't run them enough to have them "go away". So I will judge my regional tire vote on price, availability, and the opinions of those racers that I deem to have done sufficient testing on the different tires.

I'll even bet that if your region approached the different tire manufacturers with your intentions, they will give you the same, If not better, contingency programs you are currently getting with Toyo. I know of a regional class that approached Nitto with less cars than what we currently run with and they already have a deal.

Just "tire"d of everyone whining about not having a choice rather than simply acting on their own rights.

Sean

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31st in the nation. If I could keep the car on the track and put on the oil cap I could be in the top 20.

cert24 Verified Driver
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Any word from NASA yet?

Jason Holland Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Mediocrity rules!

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In process.

--------------------
Jason Holland
Semi-interested civilian

tony senese Verified Driver
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WELL SAID SEAN!!!!

+1, except I was 50th in the nation and I need your 44 protests to go through and my 6 as well!

--------------------
Tony Senese
SM#99
2008 NASA-NE SM Champion
NASA-NE SM Director
2008 PRO-IT SM 3rd place
http://www.nosenseyet.com/coppermine

Wreckerboy Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by SWDouglass:


Not trying to incite a riot, but if SM in your region brings out 15+ cars, or is one of the biggest classes in your region, you, as a class have the power to vote on your own tire. Simply gather your class, ask for nominations for tire choices, vote on it and go with it.


I'll even bet that if your region approached the different tire manufacturers with your intentions, they will give you the same, If not better, contingency programs you are currently getting with Toyo. I know of a regional class that approached Nitto with less cars than what we currently run with and they already have a deal.


Sean

(Excuse various snippage)

Exactly. In fact, the same argument was made at our Labor Day driver's meeting. That was done in my region (WDCR) and SSM has been discussing the option of running an alternative tire (a Nitto). It can be done.

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Rob Myles
Hero To The Momentum Impaired

Frank Todaro
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I thought Toyo owns Nitto?

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Frank
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They do...

--------------------
Paul McLester

 
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