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Author Topic: Oil type and frequency
rhart Verified Driver
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I tried to search for a thread on this but couldn't find one. This has to have been flogged before now, but can I get input on what the standard is for type of oil and frequency of changes.
TIA

George Munson Verified Driver
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Simple Answer. Type 10w 30, brand your choice, change "Hot" after every race weekend.

From an engine builder on this site, Bobby T of Race Engineering.

rhart Verified Driver
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Synthetics a waste of $, right?
Any ol filter?

Gatoratty Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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No use a synthetic of your choice! I use Mobil 1, but Amsoil, Royal Purple, Joe Gibbs, etc all are good. Most SM engine builders will tell you to use the Mazda filter only.

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Paul McLester

cintibob
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I have been told use synthetic oil but a racing syn. is better yet you need over 1200ppm of zinc and phos. and more and more oils are alot lower due to manufactures regs. for warranty on cat. converters that get pluged on high levels of those compounds. Some of those questions can be answered on mobil 1 website. alot has to do with valve springs pressures and bearing clearances.

cintibob
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Most oils now are sl or sm rated which is for the newer engines, people say they are backward compatible and they are except for the zdp aditives. There zdp levels are at 800ppm which is low for racing. Check out this site for levels of zdp in mobil 1 oil
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf
You can mix different oil from mobil 1 to get the right zdp like the motorcycle oil or racing oil with regular syn. mobil oil and mix different weights like 10w30 with 0W30 to get a 5W30. Napa has good filters you can buy by the case cheap and royal purple has a real good one but it is about $15.00. I use to use regular syn. oil from mobil but read some articles on engine failure and zdp levels and now use redline racing oil 30w and sometimes mix mobil 1 oils. Some oils use a bearing test to prove wear resistance some of these have gear oil additives in them to prevent wear.These test were for industrial engines or machinery and have little to do with real world car engines mobil states. There are lots of good oils out there you have to find the right one for your race car not street car. Everyone has their favorite oil and there are more opinions out there then carter has pills. Research the internet and archives here and decide for yourself what is best for you. PM sent rhart

GROOTS
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We use 80%/20% mix of Mobil 1 to Rotella diesel oil to increase PPM. Seems to work good

--------------------
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You can't go wrong with any of the synthetic racing oils. Red Line, which I recommend, Amsoil, Royal Purple, Gibbs, etc. The synthetics are NOT a waste of money. Even Mobil 1, which is not a real racing oil, is much better than a conventional oil. They really are important if your oil pressure drops in a corner, or if you run hot for part of a race.
wheel

ChrisA
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quote:
Originally posted by wheel:
You can't go wrong with any of the synthetic racing oils. Red Line, which I recommend, Amsoil, Royal Purple, Gibbs, etc. The synthetics are NOT a waste of money. Even Mobil 1, which is not a real racing oil, is much better than a conventional oil. They really are important if your oil pressure drops in a corner, or if you run hot for part of a race.
wheel

Mobil-1 Racing oil is available on their website. However, it is $100 for a case of 6-qts.

--------------------
Chris

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quote:
Originally posted by GROOTS:
We use 80%/20% mix of Mobil 1 to Rotella diesel oil to increase PPM. Seems to work good

I believe you can buy the additive seperately. Then you can make your favorite oil have the zinc and phos that the racing oils have.

Tom

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Valvoline VR1 20W50 changed every race weekend here.

--------------------
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GROOTS
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quote:Originally posted by GROOTS:
We use 80%/20% mix of Mobil 1 to Rotella diesel oil to increase PPM. Seems to work good

I believe you can buy the additive seperately. Then you can make your favorite oil have the zinc and phos that the racing oils have.

Tom

Does anyone know the additive that Tom is talking about ??? I would rather add a little additive instead of rotella.

--------------------
JEFF GRUTER
SM #48
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quote:
Originally posted by GROOTS:
quote:Originally posted by GROOTS:
We use 80%/20% mix of Mobil 1 to Rotella diesel oil to increase PPM. Seems to work good

I believe you can buy the additive seperately. Then you can make your favorite oil have the zinc and phos that the racing oils have.

Tom

Does anyone know the additive that Tom is talking about ??? I would rather add a little additive instead of rotella.

Here's one company that makes the additive.
http://www.zddplus.com/

Tom

l8tbreakr
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I'm changing the oil in my new SM for the first time, it has a new(er) motor from Mazda. I went to Napa to buy Mobil 1, the guy said to check out the Napa syn, it was the same formula as Valvoline Syn for half the price of M1. I asked if it's the same SynPower but he wasn't sure, which I read to mean no. I went to Bobtheoilguy site, sounds like good synthetic, but maybe not the exact same due to additional additives like phos. Since we're changing oil every track weekend, the difference between $7 Mobile 1 and $3.50 Napa / Valv synthetic, maybe a big deal, maybe not. I don't want to scrimp $14 a month, but looking at the first post changing with any synthetic monthly is a lot of safety margin. If the industry is really minimizing these valuable additives due to emmissions or cat wear, maybe the best option is the lower cost synthetic plus an additive?

First post also says change it hot after each track weekend - do you mean get the car home, idle it to operating temp (maybe 150*), and then immediately drain the oil? I assume this will catch any impurities? Thanks for your help.

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Late, the idea is that changing it hot gets the viscosity down, so that more of the oil (and crap in the oil) will drain; no black magic there.

Use the Mazda OEM filter; change with oil, every time.

Change every weekend (or less often, if you value the cost of oil over the cost of motor).

I'm told by people who should know that a good race oil is much better for these motors than an oil made for street driving over the long term. Racing oils have more lubricants, which is important the way we flog our motors.

I use Joe Gibbs XP3.

iambhooper
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i've been using Mobil 1. in the IT Honda, I had to change after every weekend... however, after 1 weekend in the SM, the oil look's nearly as clean as it did coming out of the jug! i may or may not change it before the next race, depend's.

i do use a Zinc addative, and mazda filter.

--------------------
hoop
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Frank Todaro
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I posted some questions about Brad Penn oil on a different thread but I am going to give it a try. this is the link to the 10 x 40, I am going to use. http://www.bradpennracing.com/Products/High-Performance/SAE-10W40.aspx

This is the statement about additives.
Please Note:
Penn Grade 1 High Performance Oils contain high zinc and phosphorous additive concentrations which can be detrimental to cars and trucks with catalytic converters. For our Brad Penn Synthetic Blend and Premium Passenger Car Motor oils more suitable for use in vehicles with catalytic converters, please click here. Always consult your owner's manual for proper oil selection.

On oil filters, I have been using BOSCH, with good results.

--------------------
Frank
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iambhooper
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quote:
Originally posted by Frank Todaro:

This is the statement about additives.
Please Note:
On oil filters, I have been using BOSCH, with good results.

I would sooner walk than use a BOSCH anything... walk through the paddock, you can pick out the cars using bosch plugs by just listening to the misfire's! (sorry, i know we are talking oil)

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hoop
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Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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No reason to change oil every weekend IMO, I typically change every two or every three race weekends. [scratchchin]

--------------------
Jim Drago
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TR6
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I am going to be more prone to change every weekend in the hot months because I figure the oil is breaking down faster in the heat. In cooler months, I'm more likely to go every couple of weekends. So far, I've just been using Mobil 1 synthetic.

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Greg H.
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quote:
Originally posted by iambhooper:
i've been using Mobil 1. in the IT Honda, I had to change after every weekend... however, after 1 weekend in the SM, the oil look's nearly as clean as it did coming out of the jug! i may or may not change it before the next race, depend's.

i do use a Zinc addative, and mazda filter.

With Mobile 1 just listen for noisy lifters after a race, and it's time to change. That equates to about everry 3 races.

Many threads ago on this forum, was a really good comparison to oil filters. Bottom line was Wix sold the best quality filter. Steel end caps, etc.

-bw

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Bruce Wilson
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I've been using WIX oil filters for a long time. Like Bruce said they are one of the best and they are little larger than the Mazda one.

Tom

l8tbreakr
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NAPA filters are rebranded Wix.

I'll either look for an additive or a race oil, thanks for the advice. I used to run M1 in the BMW, but that was a completely stock build. Something to be aware of, in high mileage motors if you switch from using dino oil for a long time to synthetic, good chance the motor will develop leaks, particularly around the pan gasket. The detergents in the synthetic break down all the old buildup very effectively.

@Hoop - if you don't run the Bosch plugs, is it the Champions? I'm still working out my plan for consumables on the new car.

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AJ Goldsmith
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I worked on Oil Filter marketing for a while so we did a lot of testing, studies and reading around oil and filters.

From what I have seen, oil is oil. All synthetics offer very similar performance. There are different additives, but it really comes down to very small differences and lots of opinions about who's additives are best. Use what you can afford.

The filter is THE most important part of the equation. The studies that I have seen all rank Wix as the best, many of Bosch(who seem to make a dozen brands or so)as best bang for the buck and Fram on the very bottom.

Wix also makes Napa and Car Quest.
Bosch makes Bosch brand, Mobile 1, Motocraft, Purolator, STP, some AC Delco, Deutsch, Car and Driver, KnN, Champ, Quaker State, ProLine, Powerflow, etc.
Fram performed the worst. No orange filter will ever be on another one of my cars. Most of their volume is sold through Walmart that must be an indication of quality.

I don't know where the Mazda OEM stacks up as it wasn't in any of the tests.

Cliffy Chains
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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
No reason to change oil every weekend IMO, I typically change every two or every three race weekends. [scratchchin]

For all 1.8L cars - every 2 weekends for the engine, trans and diff.

Same for the 1.6L cars with the exception of the diff, must be changed every single weekend, especially running the Mazda-Comp Diff. It only holds 1 qt and must be changed more frequently.

Run a 0w20 up to a 10w30 synthetic, you dont want the heat breaking down conventional oil. Typically we run Mobil 1, ENEOS, Red-Line etc. I personally run an additive called MOS2 Anti-Friction. MOS2 Info It helps with the high heat we see during racing preventing alot of spun rod bearings.

Ask anyone but Red-Line MTL for the trans, use additives at your own risk of course.

Now the diff, here's where we all differ, I run Mobil 1 or Redline. Others run conventional, 75w140, etc. Remember the thinner the lube the less resistance = faster times right, so there have been some rumors, of Chippy and Big Daddy Drago using crisco and peanut oil !!! It's just a rumor of course.....

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BDR Motorsports, Autotechnik
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Drago must use that after he fries the chicken, the chicken fat is a good additive...also makes competitors too hungry to focus on following him, they tend to crash into walls.....

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Every oil man that I have talked to have told me the same things.

For a race engine you need additives for high rpm, high temp use. These do not have detergents as the change interval is short. For a street engine you need additives for low rpm low temp extended life.

These 2 additive packages are mutually exclusive. So for a race engine you need a "RACE" oil. Everybody has their favorite flavor, I have had good luck with Red-line, Royale Purple, Valvoline and am currently using a product called Schaeffer oil, made in St Louis.

If you use a race oil, you can probably go 2-3 weekends between changes. With a street based oil, like Mobil 1, you should change every weekend. Do the math, race oil is not 2-3 times as much as Mobil 1. I retail the Schaeffer at $7.50 per quart. Redline is about $12 and RP is $15

For the trans I use only Redline MTL. It is designed for transmissions like we have. Syncro, aluminum case. And it is not thick and slowing you down with drag. Many racing trans fluids are designed for dog ring boxes, make sure whatever you use is for syncros. I change about 5 weekends or when dirty.

For the diff, I use a synthetic 75/90 gear lube. I use Redline, but any flavor will work. Anything thicker is just slowing you down. Change a 1.6 diff every weekend. 1.8 with the trans fluid.

Just my opinion, but it works for me and about 30 customer cars.

Dave

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quote:
must be changed every single weekend, especially running the Mazda-Comp Diff.
Don't tell my 5-year-old, twice a season oil change Mazda-Comp differential that. I don't want it to think it's missing out. (I've surely just jinxed myself)

Are any of these opinions on oil supported by data?

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for those mixing Rotella or any diesel oils. Since the '07 fuel regs changes went into effect, the ZDDP and phosphorus levels in these oils has been reduced, significantly. The Rotella bottles with the yellow banner on them indicate the new oil. This in efffect with the ultra low sulfer diesel fuels.

Filters are issue, the Mazda one and Wix are good, I use the orange ones only on storage of motors in shop.

John

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I could not get my car to shift with MTL in the trans. I have 6 quarts cheap of you want it.
quote:
Originally posted by davew:
Every oil man that I have talked to have told me the same things.

For a race engine you need additives for high rpm, high temp use. These do not have detergents as the change interval is short. For a street engine you need additives for low rpm low temp extended life.

These 2 additive packages are mutually exclusive. So for a race engine you need a "RACE" oil. Everybody has their favorite flavor, I have had good luck with Red-line, Royale Purple, Valvoline and am currently using a product called Schaeffer oil, made in St Louis.

If you use a race oil, you can probably go 2-3 weekends between changes. With a street based oil, like Mobil 1, you should change every weekend. Do the math, race oil is not 2-3 times as much as Mobil 1. I retail the Schaeffer at $7.50 per quart. Redline is about $12 and RP is $15

For the trans I use only Redline MTL. It is designed for transmissions like we have. Syncro, aluminum case. And it is not thick and slowing you down with drag. Many racing trans fluids are designed for dog ring boxes, make sure whatever you use is for syncros. I change about 5 weekends or when dirty.

For the diff, I use a synthetic 75/90 gear lube. I use Redline, but any flavor will work. Anything thicker is just slowing you down. Change a 1.6 diff every weekend. 1.8 with the trans fluid.

Just my opinion, but it works for me and about 30 customer cars.

Dave

I could not get my car to shift with MTL in the trans. I have 6 quarts cheap of you want it..BTW, swepco 210 in the trans and rearend. I still have a 5 yr old MC rear end that had 210 in it from birth. I use redline oil, every other race. I only run one class and that's about 150 miles total for a weekend

--------------------
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When people are talking about Mobile 1 (which is what I'm using since it's easy to find local when I need it) I've noticed that there's the normal stuff, the stuff with Nascar on the label, the high mileage type, and I hear there's also a spendy race oil. For all I know it's just marketing. Is there a difference and a preferred "Mobile 1"?

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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
No reason to change oil every weekend IMO, I typically change every two or every three race weekends. [scratchchin]

I agree with this, after reading posts here I started changing the oil after each event and the oil looked almost like it came out of the bottle. I do it every two or 3 events. I will do the trans around 4 events. I should disclose my motor has 90,000.00 miles on it and runes pretty good, but if it goes, it goes.

--------------------
Frank
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cintibob
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Keith; there is a difference in mobil 1 oils. You can get by with street syn. mobil 1 in a pinch but oil for race cars is best by far. Its all about the additive package like davew said. ZDP is the main one you want in 1200-1400ppm, street oil is around 800-900ppm. Street oil has detergents you do not need we change oil too often for them. Use a race oil from mobil, redline, royal purple etc, I use redline racing oil or a combo of mobils twin cam oil for motorcycles and 0-20 mobil 1 street oil in almost 50-50 mix that gives me the right amount of ZDP and oil for high revs and weight plus it won't break down in the bearings. If you want to go indepth on oil GRM magizine has a good article last year and if you want I can send pm you an article I wrote. Mobil on its web site answers all kinds of FAQ and about mixing oils.

SCCA_Racer
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Would throwing in a quart of break in oil with my other oil be the same as adding an additive?

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Cliffy Chains
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quote:
Originally posted by SCCA_Racer:
Would throwing in a quart of break in oil with my other oil be the same as adding an additive?

Red Line ZDDP Additive

Taken from line 3 of the details: Can also be used in conventional and synthetic oils during regular operation, providing an extra package of protection otherwise not found in most motor oils
16oz bottle treats up to 12 quarts of motor oil--in many cases, one bottle can serve two engines or oil changes.

I feel like all my secrets are coming up.

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Are you guys claiming that racing oils are faster and make more HP than say a street synthetic, or just offer more protection for a racing motor?

Pat

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Pat
The gains in oils is overstated IMO, they are talking protection. Run a good synhetic that you like and forget about it..
I also hear many running low on the oil stick, like 1/2 to full qt low. IMO that is pretty silly in an engine that holds only 4 qts. I won't add if a tick low, but I certainly don't ever run low intentionally either.

--------------------
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I was talking protection Pat. Also if you run low oil level on purpose at a track like daytona I would be afraid of the engine sucking air on the banking.

TR6
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quote:
Originally posted by cintibob:
I was talking protection Pat. Also if you run low oil level on purpose at a track like daytona I would be afraid of the engine sucking air on the banking.

This is my concern also. Do the miata engines have a tendency to suffer oil starvation when loaded up to one side in a long sweeper? I know in the BMW S52 engine, many folks intentionally OVERFILL by a half quart to help prevent this problem. I'm been overfilling my miata just slightly on the same assumption that it would help prevent oil starvation in high G turns. Is this a good idea or bad? I haven't noticed any signs of frothing or foaming from windage.

--------------------
Greg H.
2002 red Miata #500
Denton, Texas

Chris Adams Verified Driver
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Any real difference in the Mazda oil filter versus the Napa, Carquest, or Purolator?

--------------------
Isn't faster to take the shortcut...through the grass?

ChrisA
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quote:
Originally posted by Chris A.:
Any real difference in the Mazda oil filter versus the Napa, Carquest, or Purolator?

Okay, this could get confusing. Just which of us said what..? Will the real Chris A please stand up?

--------------------
Chris

"Nothing can be simple. Everything's got to be a pain in the ass." - C. Adams

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What Drago said is exactly what I have found! As a matter of fact I overfill by a tick (about 1/4 of quart) and keep it there. A Miata that gets to 3 quarts will blow up; there is just not enough oil in the pan to be pulling over 1G in a turn and not uncover the pick up.

--------------------
2010 ARRC Champion
2010 CFR Champion
2010 instigator of the year
2010/2011 Andrew Von C Wingman

Chris Adams Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by ChrisA:
quote:
Originally posted by Chris A.:
Any real difference in the Mazda oil filter versus the Napa, Carquest, or Purolator?

Okay, this could get confusing. Just which of us said what..? Will the real Chris A please stand up?
Hey!

Sorry, I can Change it to my full name!

Again though, does the oil filer really matter?

--------------------
Isn't faster to take the shortcut...through the grass?

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Chris A.:
quote:
Originally posted by ChrisA:
quote:
Originally posted by Chris A.:
Any real difference in the Mazda oil filter versus the Napa, Carquest, or Purolator?

Okay, this could get confusing. Just which of us said what..? Will the real Chris A please stand up?
Hey!

Sorry, I can Change it to my full name!

Again though, does the oil filer really matter?

It absolutely matters... Many of the cheaper filters don't have a check valve in them, it allows the all the oil to drain back into pan and leaves oil pump unprimed.. You start up and run for a quite awhile with no oil pressure..
Use a good filter.
As a point of reference... A good friend lost a $5500 Sunbelt because of a fram oil filter. It would take from way out in the grass to grid to get oil pressure. It killed the engine in one weekend.

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
jdrago1@aol.com
2006-2007 Mid-West Division
07,09 June Sprints Champion

EAST STREET RACING

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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From what I've heard so far, the filter matters more as long as you are using a good synthetic oil with Zinc or additives that have Zinc (from the other oil thread)

-bw

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
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2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

ChrisA
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quote:
Originally posted by Chris A.:
quote:
Originally posted by ChrisA:
quote:
Originally posted by Chris A.:
Any real difference in the Mazda oil filter versus the Napa, Carquest, or Purolator?

Okay, this could get confusing. Just which of us said what..? Will the real Chris A please stand up?
Hey!

Sorry, I can Change it to my full name!


Thanks, but this is just weird, we have the same names. I hope your middle initial is not a "C" or we may have crossed into a parallel universe or something. [boggled]

--------------------
Chris

"Nothing can be simple. Everything's got to be a pain in the ass." - C. Adams

cintibob
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Bruce;Some people have said they get better oil pressure with the mazda filter. I think as long as it is a quality filter with the anti drainback valve your OK. I got two napa gold filters on sale the other day under $4.00ea. Mobil,K and N,etc are quality filters but costly. You can never go wrong with OEM parts. And besides the Zinc there is the Phosphorus that provides protection. The products that add quality ZDP are rare and GM's additive and STP's are now gone .

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quote:
Originally posted by ChrisA:
quote:
Originally posted by Chris A.:
quote:
Originally posted by ChrisA:
quote:
Originally posted by Chris A.:
Any real difference in the Mazda oil filter versus the Napa, Carquest, or Purolator?

Okay, this could get confusing. Just which of us said what..? Will the real Chris A please stand up?
Hey!

Sorry, I can Change it to my full name!


Thanks, but this is just weird, we have the same names. I hope your middle initial is not a "C" or we may have crossed into a parallel universe or something. [boggled]
[crackup]

Queue "Twilight Zone" music....

--------------------
Isn't faster to take the shortcut...through the grass?

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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Next you guys will be telling me Mazda filter weighs less [Big Grin]

-b

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

TillerTech
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When testing for the 25hr race builds, I noticed the "orange" filters giving up pressure soon after installation. This was the begining of filter and oil testing. The Mazda and Wix filters retain full pressure beyond 5k miles. Tested in my stock commuter car.

There was an article written about filters, all of them. It was a diagnostic of performance and actual dissection of each filter. I will see if I can find it.

John

--------------------
Miata Race glass and CF from Legacy Molds. 4 1/2# CF Hood
http://www.jnent.net

 
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