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Author Topic: The white elephant in room
Z-MAN Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by soupy:
Butch what are you going to do after they are in impound and it starts top rain?

If it's raining it probably won't matter, extra power is not a good thing in the rain.

Oh, and hush up about rain... We have had some great weather for the ARRC the last few years...

MZ

CP Verified Driver
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Another logistical tidbit: some of us still use our gas gauges to determine how much fuel is in the car rather than measuring the amount we pour into the tank. Most of the gauges that I've seen are very slow to react (I add fuel and go do something else for 5 minutes, then come back to check the needle). If this is the method that lots of guys use to get their fuel level to where they want it, then that line at the pump could be there for a while.

--------------------
-Cy
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Danny Steyn Verified Driver
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Butch - I think you are on the right track

A seal can also be placed on the gas cover after fueling, and possibly a color trace can be added to the fuel to make it simple to immediately detect violators

--------------------
Danny
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OPM Autosports | Traqmate | Rossini Racing Engines
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Butch Kummer
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quote:
Originally posted by soupy:
Butch what are you going to do after they are in impound and it starts top rain?

I guess I don't understand the question because my first reaction is, "they'll get friggin wet!".

Do you mean in "Parc Ferme" (pre-race impound)? We can handle that with "no refueling after the cars have been sealed" (just like we currently disallow fueling on the False Grid).

I need to work on the wording, of course, otherwise the crews would not be able to help their driver buckle into the car. [Big Grin]

But you understand the concept, correct?

BK

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Tom Maycock
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I think his point was that if it starts to rain and the competitors need to swap over to rain tires, do you let the cars return to their paddock spots to change, or do you make everyone bring tires and tools to parc ferme?

Willie the Tard Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Blake Clements:
No it won't Butch, because of Ballasting reason.

If you have a "big boned, but good looking" guy like myself in an early model car, they will need minimal gas (not 8 gallons).

5 MIGHT be a do-able value. It would be better to have all competitors pump the remaining gas out of the test port and then fill and seal regardless of quantity.

No amount will work -- I am not that smart and I can think of ways to get gas in and out of a "sealed" tank

--------------------
William Keeling a.k.a. Willie the Tard

Tom Maycock
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" and possibly a color trace can be added to the fuel to make it simple to immediately detect violators"

As I understand it, it is NOWHERE NEAR that easy.

Butch Kummer
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quote:
Originally posted by CP:
Another logistical tidbit: some of us still use our gas gauges to determine how much fuel is in the car rather than measuring the amount we pour into the tank. Most of the gauges that I've seen are very slow to react (I add fuel and go do something else for 5 minutes, then come back to check the needle). If this is the method that lots of guys use to get their fuel level to where they want it, then that line at the pump could be there for a while.

With all due respect, if you are aware of this rule going in and you still need to use the gas gauge to determine how much gas to add to an empty tank, are you in the top 20 in SM?

Regardless, it's your responsibility to have your car to grid prior to the five-minute warning. If it's not there, you start at the back. If you're a "sit and sip" kinda guy, you'll want to get an earlier start than your buddies do.

BTW - it also helps to know the arrangement of the gas pumps at Road Atlanta. We'd line the cars up coming down the hill from the garages / concession stand and pump them out. You'd then roll downhill to the gas pumps and add the necessary fuel, then roll farther down the hill to "Parc Ferme".

BK

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Atlanta Region Asst. RE, Competition Director

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Maybe you guys aren't familiar with a pump-a-round. It's simple, but a PITA to actually do. They used to do this is kart racing (they might still).

Everyone shows up to false grid with the amount of fuel they need for the race. Someone goes around and empties your car into a drum and records the amount. The drums are all mixed together. Everyone is dispensed back the amount they put in. Everyone has the same gas. You go right to grid after being fuel. "Parc Ferme."

You have to agree before hand to use one type of gas (maybe 93). Everyone should/will comply since there is zero advantage for not complying.

Bottom line: "Spec racing" does not exist. Spec-ish racing does. Even Jim's utopia of SSM is not even close to providing "spec" parity. In MARRS 5 the top 11 in SM were within .5 seconds. Only the top 4 in SSM were within the same margin. Sure the SSM guys likely spent less $$. But did they get better parity? Then what's the point?

Letting people find top prep levels will always produce the best parity. Face it, racing involves prep, spec or not. Any class where you can rub on the cars will have people that rub better than others.

If you want to not prep the car and have any chance of winning, do a vendor controlled series like Skip Barber.

Get over it. Rub on your car the best you can and go have fun.

-Kyle

Butch Kummer
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quote:
Originally posted by Tom Maycock:
I think his point was that if it starts to rain and the competitors need to swap over to rain tires, do you let the cars return to their paddock spots to change, or do you make everyone bring tires and tools to parc ferme?

First thought: If you're in the top 20 AND it's threatening rain, be prepared to change tires in parc ferme.

Since you only get 15 minutes to change tires, however, will you really be able to do that plus drain the tank and add the rocket fuel (without anyone noticing)? And if you CAN manage that, does the rocket fuel gain you that much in a rain race?

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Atlanta Region Asst. RE, Competition Director

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by disquek:

Bottom line: "Spec racing" does not exist. Spec-ish racing does. Even Jim's utopia of SSM is not even close to providing "spec" parity. In MARRS 5 the top 11 in SM were within .5 seconds. Only the top 4 in SSM were within the same margin. Sure the SSM guys likely spent less $$. But did they get better parity? Then what's the point?

-Kyle

Did you say that out loud? [duck]

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
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EAST STREET RACING

Motor City Hamilton
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quote:
Originally posted by disquek:
Everyone shows up to false grid with the amount of fuel they need for the race. Someone goes around and empties your car into a drum and records the amount. The drums are all mixed together. Everyone is dispensed back the amount they put in. Everyone has the same gas. You go right to grid after being fuel. "Parc Ferme."

You have to agree before hand to use one type of gas (maybe 93). Everyone should/will comply since there is zero advantage for not complying.

-Kyle

Couldn't you just show up with additives already in your tank? Add 5 gallons from the pump-o-bin and it will mix while you pour.

soupy
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You do understand for some there is more to a rain setup just changing the tires, right?

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Charlie Campbell
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Butch Kummer
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quote:
Originally posted by soupy:
You do understand for some there is more to a rain setup just changing the tires, right?

Just as you understand bringing their cars to the gas pumps "ready to race" means being prepared for either eventuality if the weather is threatening. If there's a sudden downpour when cars are already on the grid, the GCR allows the CS to declare a rain race. You then get an extra fifteen minutes to prepare the cars. That would not change.

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Atlanta Region Asst. RE, Competition Director

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ya'lls just splitting hairs;
if it rains at the ARRC, just call it an official race and hand the boerboel the win.
No one will beat that dawg at Rd Atl in the rain.
If it rains, don't matter if on slicks, wets, cheater dirt stockers, rocket fuel or whatever, everyone just save yourself the thousands in body shop bills and go home with your car in one piece, that photosteyn dude gets the 1st place trophy.

Glenn Verified Driver
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quote:
f it rains at the ARRC, just call it an official race and hand the boerboel the win.
No one will beat that dawg at Rd Atl in the rain.
If it rains, don't matter if on slicks, wets, cheater dirt stockers, rocket fuel or whatever, everyone just save yourself the thousands in body shop bills and go home with your car in one piece, that photosteyn dude gets the 1st place trophy.

ROTFLMAO! Danny you now have REPUTATION [burst]

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Glenn
Crew chief Meathead Racing, NE Region Sales Division Race Engineering, The GOLD standard in SM engines, Occasional race slave for OPM Autosports

mat pombo Verified Driver
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Butch,

My recommendations for the ARRC and the other races is simple...spec a fuel.

For the ARRC, Sprints, and Runoffs spec the 93 Octane track fuel. Take samples and send it off, they should match the control sample you send with it per the new rules 100%. If anyone runs any other fuel, including the pump fuel from the local Texaco it will be found non-compliant per the new lab testing. Butch, this is what I would do and I would check samples after qualifying and the race. You can also have the track add an additive that can be easily detected in the fuel during your track testing to preliminarily check compliance.

For all other national/regional races spec the nearest gas station's 93 octane fuel. Bring back a $5 fuel compliance fee for all entry's where the top 5's fuel will be sent off for lab testing. The name of the local gas station and it's 93 octane can be mentioned in the supps or at the drivers meeting to make sure all are aware. This is the cheapest way to do it, and all races regional/national will be tech'd.

The problem is that unless you find a way to spec a fuel people will continue to make exotic fuels that will meet any new fuel guidelines.

Spec the track 93 for ARRC, Sprints, Runoffs. Spec the nearest gas station 93 octane at all other weekends. This gives the stewards a control sample they can get to send to the lab with the top 5 finishers fuel sample. No way to cheat that system.

Mat

P.S. You can seal whatever you want and people will figure out a way to add exotic fuel to the system.

mat pombo Verified Driver
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Also,

This BS about the fuel being legal is crap. We came up with a fuel rule to combat this exact thing, so all of you guys rationalizing in your mind that you are legal are just doing so to feel better. Most of you know that the fuel rule was made to bring back pump fuel and eliminate these unhealthy and expensive fuels. Obviously, it has loopholes that need to be fixed for the not so big events and as SM competitor I expect it to be fixed soon. None of us should be exposed to the carcinogens that most of these exotic fuels are made with.....

Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Mat, you are dead on right!

It might be even easier than that, if the SCCA are willing to plunk down $30,000 on a Photovac Voyager portable GC system. You give it a sample of the approved fuel and a sample of fuel from a car. If the GC fingerprint doesn't overlay almost exactly (absolutely no unknown peaks, but peak amplitudes can be off a bit), then you send the fuel sample off to a real lab for precise determination... after you run over the driver with a bulldozer.

--------------------
Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

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quote:
Originally posted by mat pombo:
Butch,

My recommendations for the ARRC and the other races is simple...spec a fuel.

For the ARRC, Sprints, and Runoffs spec the 93 Octane track fuel. Take samples and send it off, they should match the control sample you send with it per the new rules 100%. If anyone runs any other fuel, including the pump fuel from the local Texaco it will be found non-compliant per the new lab testing. Butch, this is what I would do and I would check samples after qualifying and the race. You can also have the track add an additive that can be easily detected in the fuel during your track testing to preliminarily check compliance.

For all other national/regional races spec the nearest gas station's 93 octane fuel. Bring back a $5 fuel compliance fee for all entry's where the top 5's fuel will be sent off for lab testing. The name of the local gas station and it's 93 octane can be mentioned in the supps or at the drivers meeting to make sure all are aware. This is the cheapest way to do it, and all races regional/national will be tech'd.

The problem is that unless you find a way to spec a fuel people will continue to make exotic fuels that will meet any new fuel guidelines.

Spec the track 93 for ARRC, Sprints, Runoffs. Spec the nearest gas station 93 octane at all other weekends. This gives the stewards a control sample they can get to send to the lab with the top 5 finishers fuel sample. No way to cheat that system.

Mat

P.S. You can seal whatever you want and people will figure out a way to add exotic fuel to the system.

This DO sound familiar! [Smile]

--------------------
Jason Holland
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Keith in WA Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by mat pombo:
For the ARRC, Sprints, and Runoffs spec the 93 Octane track fuel. Take samples and send it off, they should match the control sample you send with it per the new rules 100%.

Not 100%. The control fuel will have a "chemical fingerprint". The fuel test port doesn't drain the tank to vapors though. Unless you flush the whole system, whatever residual fuel is in the system will contaminate the test samples to some degree. I don't know how much it would skew the data or how accurate the test protocol is but if everyone was tossed the first time the plan was executed because it was enough that nobody matched 100%...big egg on face.

The fuel pickup definately leaves some in there. I've come off the track with my engine cutting out and apparently my fuel guy was "almost positive" there was lots of fuel in there when it went on the trailer. (I need to fire that guy but he pays my morgage.) After checking some wires I hooked up the test port and not more than a dribble came out. Moral of the story, when there's little enough to stop coming out the fuel test port, there is enough to drive the car a little bit except around corners or fast.

It's another situation where you'd have to spec a tollerance on the ammount you could be off "spec" because you can't get the car samples to match the control samples 100%

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Keith Novak
(Will work for tires)

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upon further review ... i forgot about the hermanos P.
OK, ARRC race back on if it rains. Even money bet on photogDan, Mark and the good Doctor.


[Cool]

Rich Verified Driver
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SRF spec fuel at the sprints seemed to work pretty well. I sniffed about 6 different tailpipes from less than a nose-length away during the race and never smelled anything funny.

I liked the part where I had to sign and have my signature witnessed when I bought fuel on Friday.

Fuel guy - "What's your team name, we have to have a team name for the form?"

Me - "Uh...team? Me."

Fuel guy - "Yeah, but who are you here with."

Me - "You're looking at it."

Fuel guy - "Oh."

All the signatures above mine bought 20 or more gallons for at least two cars. [rolling on floor laughin] Then again, what's $6 per gallon for a plausible amount and a signature compared to the cost of SR1 or similar? Some people will go too far no matter how far we go to stop them. My feeling is nobody at the front in SRF that I ran with was running anything other than the ethanol-free 93 octane BP fuel we ended up having speced for us.

Zwollinator - extra power is only a bad thing in the rain if you have a digital gas pedal. [Wink]

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Rich Wiese

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Wreckerboy Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by disquek:


Bottom line: "Spec racing" does not exist. Spec-ish racing does. Even Jim's utopia of SSM is not even close to providing "spec" parity. In MARRS 5 the top 11 in SM were within .5 seconds. Only the top 4 in SSM were within the same margin. Sure the SSM guys likely spent less $$. But did they get better parity? Then what's the point?


Kyle - I was top 10 at that same event in SSM, and I can tell you that fuel is NOT what kept me from moving farther up. In simple terms, I did not drive as well as those who finished in front of me.

With all due respect to those who finished behind me, there is a wide disparity of talent throughout the field. I don't have the sheet in front of me, but IIRC Sunday's grid had the top five or six within a second, the middle fifteen within another second, and the rest trailing behind by various degrees.

Given those groupings, either we all have remarkably similar levels of talent, or remarkably similar levels of prep. I'll go you one better, even. Last year I watched Mike Collins take one of his client's cars that normally does not finish up front, start dead last on the track, and still manage a top ten finish.

Yes, it may not be perfect, but I think we've got a reasonable degree of success.

Now I've got to go check myself because I may have agreed with Jim about something! [Smile]

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Rob Myles
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There is no way that burning "hot fuel" is anyway within the spirit of the class, or letter of the GCR. The addage that everyone else up front was doing it, so I had to is just ridiculous.

Look, I'm new to the class, but I understand that a certain amount of "Spec" isn't "Spec"... there is alway's someone that can afford to have a pro built car, versus someone like myself that buy's a "deal" and has to work it into something that will hopefully be competitive.

But using a "hot fuel", IE one that isn't avialable at the track pump, or any of the numerous Gas stations on the way to the track, is just wrong.... and justifying it with the "everyone else is doing it, so we had to" statement proves that you and everyone upfront know's it's wrong, but just plain don't care!

Spec is supposed to be Spec, but this kind of thing turns Spec into another "good 'ol boy network class"!

Great!

--------------------
hoop
'91 Spec Miata
'90 NA Beater/Track Day car
'06 RSX Type S

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Sad to say, but there is no "Spirit of the Class." Racers will always look for ways to break the rules (and not get caught) and will spend 10% more than they have to get to the front. The sad part of this like the ecu issue is that we again have the front 10% of the SM drivers causing the rest of us to spend more money just to stop their BS. If I want to run the ARRC or the Sprints I will have to add track gas to my budget at $7-10 a gallon, plus whatever testing fee they decide to implement.

The discussion has turned to how to "fix" the hot gas issue, when we should be considering just establishing a rule and then throw a few people out of the club when they break the rule. Instead we are like the teacher who punishes the entire class for the actions of one kid. Didn't like it then......don't like it now! The sick part is the ones who did this are supposed to be the stewards of our sport or at least profess that on this site quite often. Like the snake said "It's my nature."

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Paul McLester

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+1 Paul

Until the consequences of cheating are real and severe penalties then we're all pissing in the wind.

-Denny

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[establishing a rule and then throw a few people out of the club when they break the rule]

Can I hear an Amen for brother gator?? He has stumbled over the big lie that nothing can be done about the cheat.
Make the penalties stiff, let the techies tech, and the stewards rule. Appeal process follows and if you fail you sit for a spell. It's painfully simple.

Jamie Tucker Series Champ

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This is another issue where 99.99% of Spec Miata drivers are in total agreement. We all know that the class was supposed to use regular fuel from a local gas station. The drivers that used the other fuel can look at it anyway they want but the 99.99% think that they stepped over the line regardless if it was compliant or not. Also just because a fuel can pass an inspection does not make it legal. Not being able to verify it is illegal does not make it legal; it just means you got away with it. I have said it before and I will say it again, it is inexcusable for drivers to use this fuel; especially given the drivers that used it! One things for certain, I better never hear those drivers EVER complain about somebody else cheating!

--------------------
2010 ARRC Champion
2010 CFR Champion
2010 instigator of the year
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Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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Since I opened the can of worms.. I will continue.

This fuel is every bit as legal as the fuel you get from any gas station. Most likely more so, it designed to meet the letter of our fuel rule exactly. We have a DC limit and comprehensive list of banned substances. The fuel contains none of these substances and is below the DC limit. It doesnt sneak by or'pass'a test, it is legal! Despite what has been said here. The fuel rules, despite a common misconception were written for worker and competitor safety, not as a way of leveling competition. Without Spec fuel, we will continue down this road for years to come. How long did it take for this new fuel to come out? about 2 months after the new fuel rules passed. If we simply add a few more substances, they will develop new fuel again and the only guy who wins s the fuel manufacturers.

No where in our rules does it mention anything about buying gas from local Exxon etc.

I understand not liking it etc... I am in agreement we need to get it under control. But it is 100% legal, it isn't cheating any way you slice it. What you are deabting here is ethical. My ethics are simple. I try to show up with the best legal car that I can at every event. Right now, that includes very expensive fuel unfortunatley.

Jamie,
How does it differ from a pro engine? The pro engine is built to pass tech and push to the limits of the spec and cost $5000 plus. The fuel is the same deal. I think at best, many are being hypocritical.

Again, I started the topic, I would like to see it controlled whenever and wherever we can. But I willing to bet even you Jamie will be running fuel next year at nationals when don't have this issue handled.

How many in SE decided to run 99 ecus b/c they felt others were? I know of 10 plus. That is clearly illegal, but can't be detected at this time. The fuel is 100% legal unless we change the rules, regardless of anyones 'feelings' and "interpretations' this is here to stay unless we make changes. On a regional or national level, probably here to stay.

If you want it changed, send a letter in, don't just complain here

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
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2006-2007 Mid-West Division
07,09 June Sprints Champion

EAST STREET RACING

Blake Clements Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
No where in our rules does it mention anything about buying gas from local Exxon etc.

I prefer a tiger in my tank [Wink]

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quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Tucker:
This is another issue where 99.99% of Spec Miata drivers are in total agreement. We all know that the class was supposed to use regular fuel from a local gas station. The drivers that used the other fuel can look at it anyway they want but the 99.99% think that they stepped over the line regardless if it was compliant or not. Also just because a fuel can pass an inspection does not make it legal. Not being able to verify it is illegal does not make it legal; it just means you got away with it. I have said it before and I will say it again, it is inexcusable for drivers to use this fuel; especially given the drivers that used it! One things for certain, I better never hear those drivers EVER complain about somebody else cheating!

Amen brother. This pretty well sums up the feelings of the POG crew (of which I'm a proud member). Just another evidence of why going national was probably the worst thing that could have happened to the class. Let's hope this disease doesn't eventually infect the Regional category.
Rick

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quote:
Originally posted by Qik Nip:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jamie Tucker:
[qb] Let's hope this disease doesn't eventually infect the Regional category.
Rick

It already has... Ask Jamie how many ran hot gas at the ARRC last year, 15 plus that I know of... A few of which are on here against it? Go figure?
Don't shoot the messenger, I get it... I chose to acknowledge the problem rather than put my head in the sand though.

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The fumes from the guy revving his motor near me at the SARRC/MARRS challenge grid this May almost put me in a coma.

I only run Super Shell with Platformate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7DqE-3ze-E

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AMEN! Let's get rules in place to get the "Hot Fuel" out of the class. If everyone at the front used it what advantage did you have except over the rest of the people not running it? Save the money and collectively don't use it. Why not speak to the person who was running the fuel and let them know nobody else was going to do it and if they ran it in the race you'd out them on this forum. Like Lisa Simpson said "Tainted Victory!"
There seems to be some honor amoung the front drivers so if you all decided together to not use the fuel and one changed their mind to gain the advantage, let them win. Tell everyone how they won and the rest should take care of itself by lynch mob or some other proper form of punishment.
Just because the testing can't catch the hot fuel shouldn't make it legal. Have some respect for the class. There is a "Spirit of the Class" whether it's in the GCR or not.


Joe [twocents]

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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
quote:
Originally posted by Qik Nip:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jamie Tucker:
[qb] Let's hope this disease doesn't eventually infect the Regional category.
Rick

It already has... Ask Jamie how many ran hot gas at the ARRC last year, 15 plus that I know of... A few of which are on here against it? Go figure?
Don't shoot the messenger, I get it... I chose to acknowledge the problem rather than put my head in the sand though.

I think this is one reason alot of us respect you, you dont bury your head in the sand, but can we try to find a way to fix the fuel problem. I heard SRF had a spec fuel at the sprints, but SM did not is that true.??

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I completely agree with the majority of SM racers that the 'hot fuel' some are running is not good for any of us. It just adds another cost into an already expensive hobby. If you want to run up front, you almost have to run the good stuff. Everyone loses. The guys in the back are losing more horsepower to the guys up front who are running the hot fuel. The guys up front running the hot fuel have two things in common. They've spent a fortune on fuel to gain an advantage, but haven't gained any advantage over the rest of the guys running up front because they've got the same stuff. Everyone loses.

I think everyone needs to lighten up on Mr. Drago. First, like Jim said, this fuel is legal. No where do the rules tell you where to buy fuel, or what type of fuel should be used. The rules give specific characteristics for the fuel, and this fuel apparantly is within those specs. Is it within the 'spirit of the rules'... doesn't matter. It's legal. Let's give Jim credit for coming out and admitting he was running the fuel. He has nothing to gain personally by bringing this up, he's simply looking to help the group out as a whole. He's big enough [duck] and man enough to admit he was running the hot fuel, I haven't seen any one else come out of the closet.

At the Sprints, I think a lot of racers should have spent a little less time deciding which fuel to run, and spent a little more time looking at the radar. Watching cars scramble to put rain tires on while the rain was stopping was amusing. [yep]

Maybe we should all agree to paddock in a designated "SM only" area. Then we could all watch what everyone else is doing. Now that would be entertaining. A reclining lawn chair, a bowl of popcorn, and a pair of binoculars, and I'm good to go for the week-end. [thumbsup]

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quote:
Originally posted by Cliffy Chains:
I heard SRF had a spec fuel at the sprints, but SM did not is that true.?? [/QB]

TRUE
Also why so much of the Hot fuel was out there, SRF teams were doing all they could to dump it, SM was best place for it to go.

It is at every national in SE from now on Cliff. I can guarantee it unless we control it somehow. Hopefully the big races we can spec, but no way to do all of them.
I am fine with honor system in SE, But I think we have to have too have a sniff test after the race on top three.

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Jim Drago
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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
quote:
Originally posted by Cliffy Chains:
I heard SRF had a spec fuel at the sprints, but SM did not is that true.??

TRUE
Also why so much of the Hot fuel was out there, SRF teams were doing all they could to dump it, SM was best place for it to go.

It is at every national in SE from now on Cliff. I can guarantee it unless we control it somehow. Hopefully the big races we can spec, but no way to do all of them.
I am fine with honor system in SE, But I think we have to have too have a sniff test after the race on top three. [/QB]

More like top 10....

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quote:
Originally posted by disquek:
Bottom line: "Spec racing" does not exist. Spec-ish racing does. Even Jim's utopia of SSM is not even close to providing "spec" parity. In MARRS 5 the top 11 in SM were within .5 seconds. Only the top 4 in SSM were within the same margin. Sure the SSM guys likely spent less $$. But did they get better parity? Then what's the point?

-Kyle

Sorry but you are wrong. They do get better parity and for a lot less money. I know what I spend to run in SM and be competitive and it is more than a competitive SSM. MARRS 5 SSM field was not as "deep" as SM and neither was MARRS 4. There are a few regulars missing, Windsor, O'Rourke, and Romin. It's not reasonable to look at one race as compared to the past several years where the top 10 in SSM were that close.

So the point is spending less money.

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Tim Jacobs
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Everyone that opposes the use of exotic fuel needs to go to the SCCA website @ http://www.crbscca.com/ and complete a member input requesting a rule that is written to say something like:

No race, blended, special or exotic fuel or additives are allowed - competitors WILL use unmodified standard "Passenger" car fuel available at standard passenger car fuel retailers IE: "GAS STATIONS".

I'm sure a lab can tell if there are any unusual additives or blends - it's not really rocket science.

Then when in doubt - protest...

My letter has been sent - want to change the situation? You have got to write the letters...


MZ

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quote:
Originally posted by Z-MAN:


Then when in doubt - protest...

MZ

That is the only way to pro-actively police anything, but as Jim mentioned currently these funny fuels will pass the current lab tests.

The issue is the SCCA isn't going to do much of anything with significant cost such as fuel testing etc without a protest bond.

Will the SM Compliance fee coming back help? Yes, probably. Might be a good idea to wirte a letter for that as well.

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Jim and JD have both brought up issues that are affecting the class in an effort to deal with them (hot gas and ecu's)in the public. The problem is that in a bad economy when drivers are already pinching pennies it again becomes a matter of people getting tired of hearing about another way in which they can't compete in the class. I will keep running my 87 octane and try to keep having fun no matter what happens with the hot gas and ecu issues.

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Paul McLester

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quote:
Originally posted by Z-MAN:
Everyone that opposes the use of exotic fuel needs to go to the SCCA website @ http://www.crbscca.com/ and complete a member input requesting a rule that is written to say something like:

No race, blended, special or exotic fuel or additives are allowed - competitors WILL use unmodified standard "Passenger" car fuel available at standard passenger car fuel retailers IE: "GAS STATIONS".

I'm sure a lab can tell if there are any unusual additives or blends - it's not really rocket science.

Then when in doubt - protest...

My letter has been sent - want to change the situation? You have got to write the letters...


MZ

MARK
letter is a good idea...


this part below is meaningless and unenforceable...
No race, blended, special or exotic fuel or additives are allowed - competitors WILL use unmodified standard "Passenger" car fuel available at standard passenger car fuel retailers IE: "GAS STATIONS".

I'm sure a lab can tell if there are any unusual additives or blends - it's not really rocket science.


A lab can tell exactly what is in there, but unless we define it, then it continues.. When we do define it. The cat and mouse game starts over again. When we put the fuel rules in this year, I felt like it was an attempt at catching these fuels as much as the health concerns, although I was told it wasnt. I will say, many were shocked when a new Hot fuel passed and provided the same benefit.

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Jim Drago
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I suspect the DOT regulates what is allowed in gas. I would reword saying: "gas containing only DOT and federal/state allowed ingredients and formulas." Probably can't get too far off course there.

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no off-road fuel permitted eliminates all blends and also 110 at the pump which I can drive up to Sunoco and fill my tank with even though it says "for off-road use only" on the pump!

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Paul McLester

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First time caller, long time listener...

I'm new to motor racing and obviously new to Spec Miata Nat'l events. While this new activity is loads of fun on and off the track, I can't help but share my disappointment with the obvious lack of honor and ethics in the field. Totally unimpressed. Special fuel? Really? I have only a limited understanding of race car engineering and zero experience as a mechanic, but I can read. I've read the rule book, and I understand the spirit and intentions of the rules. You fellas who want to argue that sneaky fuel, sneaky FP regulators, sneaky ECUs, sneaky timing measures, etc. are only kidding yourselves. Sorry to say it, but knowingly cheating in Spec Miata makes you an a**hole, period. No need for a steward's or tech inspector's evaluation here. Genuine a**hole. Waging a spending war in Spec Miata is a pretty silly endeavor. At the very least, the class will simply lose quality folks from attending. Clearly, the top ten can't boast to their friends and mates that they're hot shit in a race car when they're only racing each other. The rest of the field is where the spirit of the class lives. Ethics, gentlemen. It's not a constructors championship. It's a drivers championship. Too many of the folks in this class are their own biggest fans.

For those who finished in the top 5 at the Sprints...hooray for you! Studs, top to bottom. Except, that it seems like it would have been a biblical waste of your time NOT to finish up front. As Drago pointed out, he came to the Sprints with every intention of walking away with the title before the race even began. How does one confidently predict that a race with many of the quickest Miata drivers in the country is his before the weekend begins? I'm guessing equipment. That said, I'm not calling anyone here a cheater. Clearly, at least the folks running silly fuel know far more than myself or my mechanic about the rules of Spec Miata. I didn't even know silly gas was an option until reading this thread!

The notion that it's "my job to cheat and your job to catch me" is grade A horseshit. Hell, one car in the top 15 was even bounced for running R888's! If that isn't gross misconduct, what is?

Don't mistake these comments for sour grapes. I'm not racing for podiums. I know that going in. I'm racing for top 10's and top 15's. But, knowing that guys are pumping silly gas and calling wins before the weekend, who the heck knows what position I'm racing for. Fun will have to do. Sad that honor and ethics can't govern the series for us. Now there has to be talk of spec fuel. It's like a group of big, whiny kids supervised by an idiot parent who hasn't a clue about whiny kid management.

Cheers.

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Mike

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Way to call people out while hiding behind your anonymity, "Mike." [Roll Eyes]

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quote:
Originally posted by Pat Newton:
Way to call people out while hiding behind your anonymity, "Mike." [Roll Eyes]

+1

And as far as Drago thinking he was going to win. He's won the thing twice already, why couldn't he win it again? That is not rocket science or specially blended.

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quote:


The notion that it's "my job to cheat and your job to catch me" is grade A horseshit. Hell, one car in the top 15 was even bounced for running R888's! If that isn't gross misconduct, what is?

[/QB]

I am the driver who got bounced for running the 888's. I could blame the shop that preps my car, but I will take responsibility. The only reason I ran them was that they were the only rain tires I had... Not b/c i thought no one would catch me. I was trying to save a little cash and had not bought new rains since last season. Little did I know that I would have to run them at the Sprints. I follow the rules to the T, but I came to the Sprints to race and unfortunately it started to rain and my only option for rain tires were the 888's.

-Jack

 
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