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Author Topic: Free Joel Lipperini !
disquek Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I'm sure that many of you are already aware of this. But since some may not be, please check this out.

I have no first hand knowledge of what happened, but I'd like to know the truth.

http://sccaforums.com/forums/thread/424699.aspx

The Open Wheel forums have a healthy discussion going on the topic:
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41091

-Kyle

Pat Newton Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by disquek in the WGI crash-em-up thread:
Who wrote paper this weekend at WGI? Why not? What on earth would have prevented you from writing paper? By not protesting your sending the message to both the offender and to the stewards that you don't care.

Interesting juxtaposition, eh? [Wink] [duck]

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Crew Chief, 3D Racing #64, aka Team Scrappy 2.0
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Crew Chief, EGR/Miller Motorsports #64, aka Team Scrappy
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Jamie Tucker Series Champ

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You can't walk the track? I thought it was normal for drivers to grab a beer and take a walk. I have never heard of anybody saying a word to the contrary; especially in a case where an experienced driver is trying to help a new driver. Of course, I don't know all the facts but just not being able to walk a track sucks IMO.

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2010 ARRC Champion
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Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I'm gonna boycott the runoffs

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Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

Qik Nip Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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Unfreakiningbelievable!

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Fortune Cookie Racing SM 60
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disquek Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Pat Newton:
Interesting juxtaposition, eh? [Wink] [duck]

Sorry Pat, I just don't understand your comment.

Are you noting that the stewards seemed to care about Joel's walking the track, but not about the WGI contact issue? I can understand confusion over that.

Or are you saying that I'm being inconsistent in my approach to the two issues? I don't think that I am. They are VERY different issues. Kind of like comparing punching a random stranger in the face to jay walking.

-Kyle

Pat Newton Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I'm saying that by posting this thread, you might have answered your own question. "Lack of faith in the stewards and/or the process" is likely why a lot of folks don't write paper.

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Crew Chief, 3D Racing #64, aka Team Scrappy 2.0
3rd place E2, 2009 25 Hours of Thunderhill

Crew Chief, EGR/Miller Motorsports #64, aka Team Scrappy
E2 Champions, 2008 25 Hours of Thunderhill

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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You East coast big city folk use big words [Smile]

-bw

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Bruce Wilson
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Motor City Hamilton
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RESPECT MY ATHORITAH!!! Seems to all reduce down to that. There was a disagreement,and an I'll show you who's boss after that. Doesn't sound like this is about a track walk to me. Could have been any situation. This sounds like, "I told you once..." Dis-obey an official and lose your lisence.

d mathias Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I've been chased down by security at Mid-Ohio for walking the track at night. I don't think it's permitted unless it's an organized event.

I was riding a dirt bike around Road America's infield a few years ago watching my wife's race. Two track security guys in a golf cart drove up and strongly suugested that if I didn't want my bike confiscated RIGHT NOW then I should return to the paddock.

Mr Lipperini's punishment seems extremely harsh, but you know what I didn't do at RA? I didn't ride around on my dirt bike any more after I was told not to.

Z-MAN Verified Driver
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What a crock... I have walked every track I've been to: Road Atlanta, Mid-Ohio, Gateway, Hallett, Nashville, Memphis, Topeka... The only place I had a problem was at Nashville and when I showed security my credentials and explained what I was doing they backed off. What makes Road America different then other tracks??

Maybe the guys at Road America should remember that they could be left without any big SCCA events (like Mid-Ohio) How much would they loose if the Sprints and Runoffs were moved??? Personally I say we move them both down to Road Atlanta - I'm at least kind of fast there...

Now to the real big deal - if officials made false statements they should be run out of the club...


I'm boycotting the Runoffs too... [Razz]

MZ

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Before grabbing pitch forks remember this is the story from just 1 person, typically there are 3 sides.. one from each group and then the truth.

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All this has happened before, and will happen again

pat slattery Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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First time at RA about 5 - 6 years ago my son and I tried to walk the track and was promptly chased down by the guy in the golf kart. Read us the riot act. Acted like we were trying to scale the fence at the white house.

Pat

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keeping the faith for the 1.6

Arrow Karts

disquek Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Pat Newton:
I'm saying that by posting this thread, you might have answered your own question. "Lack of faith in the stewards and/or the process" is likely why a lot of folks don't write paper.

So if I understand you correctly, your opinion is that people don't exercise their only option because they think that option might fail.

Kind of sounds like a poor choice. If you only have one option then regardless of whether if might fail or not, that's your only option. So you take it.

As I said in the other thread, if you don't take it, you send the message that you don't care. When you send that message, why should the stewards care?

BTW: in the Joel L issue, my major concern is the severity of the punishment. Is getting into an argument with track security or the SOM really worthy of a license suspension? Especially when it means that you're banning a multi-time national champion from the runoffs?

I've seen people admit to intentionally running another racer into a wall (this was in SM) and they didn't get as harsh a penalty.

-Kyle

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quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Tucker:
You can't walk the track? I thought it was normal for drivers to grab a beer and take a walk.

"Normal" is a subjective phrase ...
one driver may " grab a beer" and walk, another may bring along 12 silver bullets and run out of 'ammo' by the time he gets to Turn 5, then fall and hit his head while jumping the fence while trying to go back to the paddock to reload with more silver bullets ... (see Koolkat Pat at Mid Ohio in '05).
another may try to ride his pitbike, bicycle, skateboard, then run over the fool standing on the T-4 apex in total darkness ...
you get the picture.
Nowadays, guarantee you cannot "walk the track" in the evening at:
Homestead, Daytona, Sebring, Rd Atl, Barber, VIR, Mid Ohio, etc. In fact, the only track i think may allow it is PBIR, and only because they don't know better.
Only reason for this smart aleck post is to see if the individual regions can possibly negotiate to allow a "controlled" track walk on Friday or Saturday evenings at each of these tracks.
Would be nice and helpful to have the ability to "walk" a track in a relaxed manner, lots to learn both for a newbie and a rusty old dawg.

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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I was told Road America had some grafitti spray painted on the track before a big race. Since then, they don't let anyone on the track.

Jim

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
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EAST STREET RACING

Motor City Hamilton
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I have always asked for permission to walk the track or ride a bike on the track. It's just polite and some tracks have different rules. Some tracks have said no, so I didn't walk the track. Some said no bikes, so I didn't ride my bike. It's their track, not mine - so not my decision.

There has to be more to this story. Did this turn into a big back and forth argument with a few F-you's thrown in and feathers got ruffled? Something's missing.

I still don't think the punishment fits the crime. Part of the story is missing somewhere.

Jamie Tucker Series Champ

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You can still walk VIR, Sebring, PBIR during the day and with permission but I don't know about the rest. Of course it is their track so we have to play by their rules. Still seems like a harsh punishment.

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2010 ARRC Champion
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Kyle Burkhardt
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I've sanctioned many events and participated in many more as a driver. When it comes to the track, the track owner runs the show. The owner says "what and when" when it comes to the track surface and property. As someone who puts on events, I would never think to overrule the track owner, and as a driver, I would never look to the sanctioning body for permission, ESPECIALLY if the track owner already said "No."

Sounds like a bit of a "who's got the biggest dick" contest and Joel lost.

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Kyle Burkhardt
NASA Midwest
#12 SM

Casey Z Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Want a return to a bit of sanity? Come on down to Hallett and you will get a ride a round after lunch with your street car and then walk all you like after the track is cold. No BS no please or thank you. Oklahoma may be a bit of a backwater in racing circles, but there is something to be said for it. I have taken more than one young driver out and put hand to pavement to help them understand the track. Any track the doesn't let a driver go walk and see has some serious issues they need to deal with...

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----------------
Z Brothers Racing / East Street Auto

Casey Z - 1.6 Kettle
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John the Impaler Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I clicked on this thread expecting to read a follow-up that said -

"...Just pay postage and handling !".

Again I am disappointed.

Keith in WA Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Casey Z:
Oklahoma may be a bit of a backwater in racing circles, but there is something to be said for it.

Just in racing circles? [duck]

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Keith Novak
(Will work for tires)

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Keith,
This from somebody from the home of the barefoot bandit who eluded everyone in the region, only to be caught by the crack police forces of the Bahamas, mon.

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I can definitely sympathize with Joel because he has had a long and unblemished record. It is disheartening to see a penalty of this magnitude assessed to a driver for what seems like a small matter.

However, there is much that is unknown about what all is behind the results that have been presented. I have learned that a driver or event organizer is at a disadvantage when dealing with track personnel, and there is usually only one way that things will turn out, and that is that the Track Wins.

It would have been a different story if Joel could have found a way to immediately accommodate the requests of the track personnel without inflaming the situation. Then he could have under cooler circumstances, followed up with his SCCA directors with questions or points in his favor that if presented properly by SCCA officials to the track personnel, might favor a change in attitude on that matter of the track personnel????.

If the first SCCA director he approached had said that "they don't know, they will find out" this all could have been avoided.

If Joel would have just said, "OK, the track doesn't want me to walk the track so I won't walk the track, but I will go through the proper channels tomorrow to find out what is allowed", this all could have been avoided.

The penalties imposed are the responsibility of the sanctioning body (and that can be a problem in itself), but that is not what caused the problem.

This problem was caused by someone somehow causing track personnel to react strongly to the input of the accused in this situation, at the time of first confrontation.

No matter how much knowledge or information a person has, it is best to pursue a situation like this when cooler heads are involved, or the situation can easily become more inflamed.

I wish Joel good results in the future and hope that something like this doesn't happen to him again.

Steve Nix

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well said above, going foward should the race sanctioning entity (SCCA or NASA)request a "controlled" track walk, say a 1/2 hr window, after track goes cold as part of their race schedule?
"Controlled" means only for those licensed, registered and signed in participants, no motorized vehicles, etc (trying to eliminate all legal concerns for the track owner).
As an aside, ask Mick Robinson about his encounter with the DIS Gestapo back in '99, wasn't even inside the track itself but still on DIS grounds. Lesson is: Security always wins. And they're the nice guys, you don't want to meet the Volusia County deputy sheriff...

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Forget about the track policies. They are what they are. More important is our clubs response. to the track and the driver(s). A slap on the wrist was in order or a simple verbal, please don't do that again. Why do I think they don't have are back? sounds a lot like the us gov. We vote, and they do what they want. Just glad I'm on the second half of life.

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And, the other side of the coin flips...

From the Apex Speed forum:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Creighton
Joel

This need never have been an issue if you had just stopped arguing!!!! Don't get me wrong, Stewards drive me nuts sometimes and I'm on the BOD but sometimes its better to bite your lip and use other avenues to get what you want. Honey v vinegar?

Phil

disquek Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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One way to read that is a high ranking BOD member is telling a driver who feels wronged that he should not even attempt to argue his side of a dispute because the stewards are always right and he cannot win.

Is this how you want your club to be run?

-Kyle

Yeah, I know that from a personal level, you have to pick you battles and maybe that's what Phil is saying there. But the bottom line here is that Phil is BOD member and he's giving this advise in public. Bad bad bad PR.

More fuel for the "us vs them" fire. Not good.

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To raise money for the appeal:

 -

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Muda Motorsports
"We're all here 'cause we're not all there."

Jonathan Christian Verified Driver
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This is pretty pathetic!

These are the same type of antics that have driven me and my fellow racers away from scca. Heck, i know some great scca workers that have left simply because of the way the club is run. Its a real shame but im glad there are great organizations like nasa that go above and beyond to make the racer happy.

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So..........does it change the discussion if, last week, the Court of Appeals put Joel on "60 day probation" ?

Just sayin.

Which is what it says in today's "suspension & probation list" email thingy.

Is everybody outraged (OUTRAGED !) about a 60 day probation ?

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quote:
Originally posted by wheel:
Keith,
This from somebody from the home of the barefoot bandit who eluded everyone in the region, only to be caught by the crack police forces of the Bahamas, mon.

Ya' know, that's just a really low blow. I'm offended and my feelings are hurt.

I need to go now and sulk in a double expresso Mocha latte at Starbucks.

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double post!

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Guys, if you see the timeline the post Phil made is after Joel's post. Joel then edited HIS post AFTER Phil posted. Does anyone have Joel's original post so we can have some context on what he posted?

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All this has happened before, and will happen again

Joel Lipperini
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Received:
> a 30 license suspension
> 60 additional days of probation
> 6 points on my license

The post I edited made reference to a separate situation that the same steward was involved in last year at the runoffs. I decided it was best not to name names and keep to the facts of my own SILLY SITUATION and not bring something I have no first hand knowledge of.

And I tend to agree with most of the posts here - I could have shut my mouth and not stuck up for the other driver or myself and walked away - not in my DNA.

If you want to read something disturbing - read the forum post over at Apexspeed dated July 30th, 2010, 10:03 AM
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41091&page=4

Yeah - it got me mad enough to log in and write a response...I'm still waiting for the reply.

Joel Lipperini
http://www.RaceLabz.com

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www.joellipperini.com
www.RaceLabz.com

T.J. Kearney Verified Driver
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Is this the new version of the Greg Baker forum virus?

Just wonderin' [fight]

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Tom Kearney
SSM #85
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

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From someone who goes to Road America regularly, I will say that walking the track has been forbidden for a loooong time. Like 10 years or more. Gates are put up at all the pit lane entrances. They used to put chains (like doog chains) accross the track at multiple locations.

The "thank you" announcement over the PA at the end of the day includes a statement that walking the track is forbidden. I can not say for sure that the statement was made on that night. But I would assume it was, since there is a track announcer all day at the Sprints.

Any driver who goes to Road America often "SHOULD" know this.

I am not sticking up for anyone; not Joel, the Stewards, track staff, etc. I am not approving or disapproving of the penalties or how they where justified. I am not sticking up for the track policy.

Just stating what is a commonly known rule, "You can't walk Road America" period.

Dave

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I'm not one to pick fights with Stewards anymore. While many are nice and well meaning there are bad apples. Many years back I got skewered by a steward. He as Chair of the SOM came down hard on me for something that was crazy. In essence you could not go 3 wide thru turn 1 at the start of a former track in Cendiv. By the end of that season every member of the SOM except the chairman had sought me out to apologize for it was not the 3 wide thing that was the problem, but a particular driver. The funny thing was to this day that SOM Chair still see's me as a bad guy. I won't race when he is on the list of stewards. Joel was right. some of these guys just have a power trip. YMMV.

db

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I'm pretty sure walking the track at Mid-Ohio gets you thrown in Guantanamo.

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Thomas Benham

   

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