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Author Topic: Runoffs notes from Jim Daniels
Rob Burgoon Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
quote:
Originally posted by Rob Burgoon:
quote:
Originally posted by l8tbreakr:

If pros like Rolex and ALMS, and amatuers like Production classes or IT can find ways to equalize different cars, it makes one suspicious that it can't be done in SM.

Psst... they aren't equal there either!
psst Sm is 10x closer [Wink]
agreed, with the caveat that you can't be truly equal without same weight, same torque curve, and same suspension geometry.

Equal lap times, sure. Equal car for wheel to wheel is far harder.

(props to those that have worked hard to equalize the lap times across many tracks, not taking anything away from them)

--------------------
It really makes my week when nobody crashes into me.

Dave Metz
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Drago is right.I've been involved with grand am for several years. They are constantly chasing their tails, adjusting rules on what seems like a weekly basis. If one car is running faster, they adjust, regardless of the fact that there are four other cars of the same chassis/engine combo mid pack. Take away this aero bit, allow this one, adjust displacements, gearboxes, etc. They'll penalize an engine because it had legs at daytona when the next track is Mid Ohio. It's not even close. Never will be. The constant adjustments just add up to more expense, more testing. That's why teams frequently hop engines and/or chassis between seasons.SM is WAY closer in parity. And ALMS... They are worlds apart. [thumbsup]

l8tbreakr
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But making car-specific and cost effective adjustments maintains parity. I 100% agree you don't want to be fiddling with it all the time. 3 years ago GA GT was gto.r, then porsche last year or two, now rx-8. Keeping some parity takes adjustment, but it shouldn't be a full time job for crews.

Someone with a dyno should take a 99 hp/tq curve and compare with a 1.6. To fill in the gaps at the low end off the slow turns and at the very top end I would think an alum flywheel and higher rate injectors would make a nice but not overwhelming improvement for < $1000 without slowing the 99s down at all. Could make a 1.8 as an option without the flywheel, etc, so there is an upgrade path. Make fine adjustments with weight. Seems this would help with both goals here - parity and overall moving the class forward.

--------------------
-----------
AJ Goldsmith
Westborough, MA

Rob Burgoon Verified Driver
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I swear, I'm gonna fly out and punt the next guy that says one of these alone will equalize the cars:

1. Weight and plate (robs top end, leaves midrange)
2. Flywheel (mostly helps 1st and 2nd)
3. Cams (robs midrange)

Smart people have already tried to fix this problem. It ain't easy, and if there was an easy fix, we'd already have it.

The only real solutions are difficult politically.

1. split class
2. declare a year the car to have and write it into the mission statement to make the other cars fairly close but inferior
3. allow engine swap &
allow suspension swap &
allow final drive change (PASSED)

--------------------
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John Mueller Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Rob Burgoon:
allow final drive change (PASSED)

This was done for mainly reliability. Right??

Look, with the exception of a few tracks we are really really close... Too bad that one of the tracks just happens to host one of the most important events of the season. The reality is that RA tweaks the perception of the performance gap partially because it has the most sets of eyes and $$ on it.

We are close and nothing radical needs to be done... And in this economy nothing major ($$$) should be done.

--------------------
Thanks,
John Mueller
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http://www.Weekend-Racer.com
#13 "Tiger Miata" - 2009 SoCal SSM Champion

Rob Burgoon Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by John Mueller:
quote:
Originally posted by Rob Burgoon:
allow final drive change (PASSED)

This was done for mainly reliability. Right??


I was talking about the 4.1 to 4.3 change for the 94-97. That was only to have us all on the same gear ratio. AFAIK, the 4.1 and 4.3 torsen are both bombproof.

The 1.6 rear end to 99 rear end change was for reliability.

--------------------
It really makes my week when nobody crashes into me.

Eric Richter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Until we have a three way tie between the 1.6, 1.8 and a '99 at the Runoffs and the NASA Championships, there will always be talk of parity.

--------------------
2009 SoCal SCCA SM Champion
"Only boring people get bored"

Rob Burgoon Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Eric Richter:
Until we have a three way tie between the 1.6, 1.8 and a '99 at the Runoffs and the NASA Championships, there will always be talk of parity.

Even if we had a 3 way tie between the cars, the cars would STILL be unbalanced. The 99 will recover more easily from mistakes and will hold up the 1.6 in the corners.

With different torque curves, parity simply isn't possible.

--------------------
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JIM DANIELS Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Rob Burgoon:
I swear, I'm gonna fly out and punt the next guy that says one of these alone will equalize the cars:

1. Weight and plate (robs top end, leaves midrange)
2. Flywheel (mostly helps 1st and 2nd)
3. Cams (robs midrange)

Smart people have already tried to fix this problem. It ain't easy, and if there was an easy fix, we'd already have it.

The only real solutions are difficult politically.

1. split class
2. declare a year the car to have and write it into the mission statement to make the other cars fairly close but inferior
3. allow engine swap &
allow suspension swap &
allow final drive change (PASSED)

Punt me then.....

In WCGTS we have cars weighing 700 pounds different, AWD, FWD, RWD and every possible combo. Look at the results in a normal year where there are lots of cars, 20 guys on same tenth and no car winning it all.

WEIGHT AND PLATE can do it very well if the smart guys wanted it to.

Punt away.

--------------------
Jim Daniels

MAZDARACERS.COM

Rob Burgoon Verified Driver
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Equal lap times and equal drivers (if there was such a thing) still does not mean equal cars.

--------------------
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JIM DANIELS Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Rob Burgoon:
Equal lap times and equal drivers (if there was such a thing) still does not mean equal cars.

Equal cars still does not mean equal lap times. Equal is the same driver in three cars and scratching his head on which one is best.

--------------------
Jim Daniels

MAZDARACERS.COM

Rob Burgoon Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by JIM DANIELS:
Equal cars still does not mean equal lap times. Equal is the same driver in three cars and scratching his head on which one is best.

I agree with both of those statements.

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Juan Pineda Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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For any given performance target, there is a spectrum of weight and plate combinations that will approximate that target. So higher weight would require larger restrictor. And the other way around.

So if we selected a lower weight and smaller plate combination than the current spec, is that the right direction to make the 1.8 behave closer to the 1.6 under a wider range of tracks? Why was the current weight RP combination selected?

-Juan

--------------------
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So why not send out a questionaire to every SM driver in the country to see who really gives a rat about parity at the Runoffs at Road America? @1%...

--------------------
-Cy
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B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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Cy, I know you and some others don't think it's important to you, but please try to look at the bigger picture. Obviously it does matter to quite a few folks as evident by the comments on this thread. And BTW, RA is not the only track where the 99 is an overdog.

It is important that the folks who spend the most on racing that this is not a one year class for the runoffs and it is important that those who just race regional and maybe not every event that we don't make sweeping changes that end up costing a lot of money. Somewhere there is a balnace for all parties involved.

I'm advocating allowing the suspension changes and then locking it all down after that, with one exception, the 1.8 upgrade option for 1.6 owners. And with the optional 1.8 upgrade, comes the associated rp and weight changes.

-bw

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
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cnj
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quote:
Originally posted by B Wilson:
Cy, I know you and some others don't think it's important to you, but please try to look at the bigger picture. Obviously it does matter to quite a few folks as evident by the comments on this thread. And BTW, RA is not the only track where the 99 is an overdog.

It is important that the folks who spend the most on racing that this is not a one year class for the runoffs and it is important that those who just race regional and maybe not every event that we don't make sweeping changes that end up costing a lot of money. Somewhere there is a balnace for all parties involved.

I'm advocating allowing the suspension changes and then locking it all down after that, with one exception, the 1.8 upgrade option for 1.6 owners. And with the optional 1.8 upgrade, comes the associated rp and weight changes.

-bw

In principle I agree. For the long term health of the class any version of the cars should have the potential to be competitive at any track, including the Runoffs location.

While we appear to have pretty good parity at many tracks around the country, we still do not have equality. We can do better and so these (sometimes circular) debates are worth engaging in. Suspension uniformity and an option to allow upgrades of 1.6 motors to 1.8 with attendant weight/RP modifications would improve equality. It will not be easy and many will complain about cost, but I predict that in 3 years this will be the chosen path. Racing will be tighter than it is already and the value of early NA cars, while requiring some investment over several years, will hold firm or increase rather than atrophy.

Craig J

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All you '99 guys sound like Nancy Pelosi and Obama.... telling the poor misguided citizens that she know's what's best for us and our money!

Look, I sold my perfectly competitive ITB car (a car that finished ahead of a lot of SM's) to get into a class where everything was "the same". I didn't get into it to spent $2400 on suspension bit's that aren't needed, or $8000 on a 1.8l motor becuase that's what someone else see's is needed.

If I was going to do that, I would have either stayed in IT or bought a SRF!

Leave thing's along. If you think that there need's to be achange because the '99's are better thant the rest of the class, put a restricter on them!

The SCCA is not going to make a seperate class, or a seperate run group, just because. In the club weekend's thing's are tight enough as they are, and if they do, we will still be out there with you and your '99's!

See ya at VIR in 3 weeks!

Brian Hooper
1.6l SM Owner

--------------------
hoop
'91 Spec Miata
'90 NA Beater/Track Day car
'06 RSX Type S

David Dewhurst
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quote:
Originally posted by iambhooper:
All you '99 guys sound like Nancy Pelosi and Obama.... telling the poor misguided citizens that she know's what's best for us and our money!

I will presume that if Pelosi & Obama owned 1.6's & were members of the CenDiv with 7 SCCA races per year at Road America their attitudes would change in a hurry. [yep]

--------------------
Have Fun [Wink]

David Dewhurst
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Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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The comments and opinions that the 1.6 is an under dog at Road America simply are unfounded. Not sure how you watch that race and come to that conclusion, there was no sample? The entire case is based on one or two cars and 1.6 owners who are worried about things they have heard and not even seen for themselves. You simply can't base that entire argument on two cars. Since 99 owners aren't building older cars and racing them at Road America also proves nothing IMO. Not sure why anyone would do that if the cars are even? The only way I see people going back to a finicky 20+ year old car is if it is a clear overdog. To my knowledge there have been only two drivers show up at Road America all year with 1.6 cars that had any realistic chance of doing well in a competitive field. Shawn Slattery and Jeff Labounty.
Shawn finished P3 at Sprints regardless of how he got there had more power than my 99, so Imo he overachieved. Shawn finished p10 at the Runoffs. Labounty showed up at the Sprints in a 1.6 and finished p7 and finished p8 at the Runoffs in what many believe(including myself) to be one of the fastest 99's in the country. the Car won last years ARRC. Less substantial changes which I think we all agree are not needed, neither of these guys move up 7 and 10 positions respectfully in those fields to win.
Using the 1.6 logic I am hearing, Jeff should have won in a great 99 since he placed 7th with a 1.6 car? Someone should have told the rest of the field. Not sure how you explain why Jeff doesn't advance his position in not only a a "better" year car, but also he went from a "good" 1.6 car to an excellent 99 car.
We do not have a parity issue, despite the popular opinion. Please continue, don't let the facts stand in your way. [Roll Eyes]

--------------------
Jim Drago
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quote:
Originally posted by iambhooper:
All you '99 guys sound like Nancy Pelosi and Obama.... telling the poor misguided citizens that she know's what's best for us and our money!

Look, I sold my perfectly competitive ITB car (a car that finished ahead of a lot of SM's) to get into a class where everything was "the same". I didn't get into it to spent $2400 on suspension bit's that aren't needed, or $8000 on a 1.8l motor becuase that's what someone else see's is needed.

If I was going to do that, I would have either stayed in IT or bought a SRF!

Leave thing's along. If you think that there need's to be achange because the '99's are better thant the rest of the class, put a restricter on them!

The SCCA is not going to make a seperate class, or a seperate run group, just because. In the club weekend's thing's are tight enough as they are, and if they do, we will still be out there with you and your '99's!

See ya at VIR in 3 weeks!

Brian Hooper
1.6l SM Owner

Seeing how you purchased a 3 year unused SM in early this year, after plenty of discussion like this over years past, research would have shown that future modifications could be required.

Nothing said in this thread is new or hasn't been suggested or talked about before.

--------------------
James York


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MPR22
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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
The comments and opinions that the 1.6 is an under dog at Road America simply are unfounded. Not sure how you watch that race and come to that conclusion, there was no sample? The entire case is based on one or two cars and 1.6 owners who are worried about things they have heard and not even seen for themselves. You simply can't base that entire argument on two cars. Since 99 owners aren't building older cars and racing them at Road America also proves nothing IMO. Not sure why anyone would do that if the cars are even? The only way I see people going back to a finicky 20+ year old car is if it is a clear overdog. To my knowledge there have been only two drivers show up at Road America all year with 1.6 cars that had any realistic chance of doing well in a competitive field. Shawn Slattery and Jeff Labounty.
Shawn finished P3 at Sprints regardless of how he got there had more power than my 99, so Imo he overachieved. Shawn finished p10 at the Runoffs. Labounty showed up at the Sprints in a 1.6 and finished p7 and finished p8 at the Runoffs in what many believe(including myself) to be one of the fastest 99's in the country. the Car won last years ARRC. Less substantial changes which I think we all agree are not needed, neither of these guys move up 7 and 10 positions respectfully in those fields to win.
Using the 1.6 logic I am hearing, Jeff should have won in a great 99 since he placed 7th with a 1.6 car? Someone should have told the rest of the field. Not sure how you explain why Jeff doesn't advance his position in not only a a "better" year car, but also he went from a "good" 1.6 car to an excellent 99 car.
We do not have a parity issue, despite the popular opinion. Please continue, don't let the facts stand in your way. [Roll Eyes]

Ok, just stopped laughing. I am sorry but you arguing there is parity at Road America between the top 99's and the top 1.6 is ridiculous.

You don't go to the "National Championship Race" and spend the kind of money EVERYONE of the top 20 competitors spent with the second best car for the track. I garantee that most of the top drivers had their pick of cars to race and almost to driver they picked the 99'. Why, because of the cool headlights, or because they spent over a $1,000 a day for 10-14 days to win the damn race.

I don't think too many people are arguing the parity issue at all tracks, but at Road America there is a clear favorite.

So don't tell us, "We do not have a parity issue, despite the popular opinion. Please continue, don't let the facts stand in your way."
[shame]

Peace Out

--------------------
Michael Ross

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quote:
Originally posted by MPR22:
.......

I don't think too many people are arguing the parity issue at all tracks, but at Road America there is a clear favorite.


Peace Out

I am not going to argue for or against parity with this post, but I would like to know how you "clearly" know this?

Internet chatter? Finish or qual results? entries? TV? There is an enormous amount of variables that reflect one's performance at the Runoffs.

--------------------
James York


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Right on Drago! Until I see data that proves otherwise I'm with you.

--------------------
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MPR22
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quote:
Originally posted by Cajun Miata Man:
quote:
Originally posted by MPR22:
.......

I don't think too many people are arguing the parity issue at all tracks, but at Road America there is a clear favorite.


Peace Out

I am not going to pick one side or the other here on this debate, but I would like to know how you "clearly" know this?

Internet chatter? Finish or qual results? entries? There is an enormous amount of variables that reflect one's performance at the Runoffs.

James,

It is simple, ENTRIES. None of the top 20 go to finish off the podium.

--------------------
Michael Ross

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quote:
Originally posted by MPR22:
quote:
Originally posted by Cajun Miata Man:
quote:
Originally posted by MPR22:
.......

I don't think too many people are arguing the parity issue at all tracks, but at Road America there is a clear favorite.


Peace Out

I am not going to pick one side or the other here on this debate, but I would like to know how you "clearly" know this?

Internet chatter? Finish or qual results? entries? There is an enormous amount of variables that reflect one's performance at the Runoffs.

James,

It is simple, ENTRIES. None of the top 20 go to finish off the podium.

Ok. So in your mind, there will not be parity until the 1.6L is made superior enough to require (influence) 99 owners to swap to a 1.6 model? Would that sum it up?

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From Websters Dictionary Parity: the quality or state of being equal or equivalent

My view is more in line with Mr. Daniels, "Equal is the same driver in three cars and scratching his head on which one is best."

I believe a driver should be able to choose a car that suits his or her driving style to compete at the run offs.

I believe the 99's have a torque advantage that is difficult for the 1.6 to overcome at that track. It appears that NA 1.8s may start to populate the field if drivers feel they can develop a Run Off's winning car.

IMHO 99's or 1.6 may be the favorite at different tracks. I believe there is parity between the models at several tracks in our division.

Do I care that it dominates the runoffs, personally no. 1) I will most likely never compete at that level, 2) We are building a 99'.

But don't tell me the 99' is not the CTH at Road America under the current rules, just because there is no "Data" to support that assumption. I don't need to own a mega doppler radar to know that its raining outside.

--------------------
Michael Ross

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quote:
Originally posted by MPR22:
I don't need to own a mega doppler radar to know that its raining outside.

No, but you at least have to look outside....

--------------------
James York


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MPR22
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Actually, I have 4 other senses to tell me, but that is not what you were really trying to say was it? [Wink]

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Michael Ross

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quote:
Originally posted by MPR22:
Actually, I have 4 other senses to tell me, but that is not what you were really trying to say was it? [Wink]

[yep]

I'll have to try to be more subtle next time and make it harder.

--------------------
James York


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quote:
Originally posted by Cajun Miata Man:
quote:
Originally posted by MPR22:
Actually, I have 4 other senses to tell me, but that is not what you were really trying to say was it? [Wink]

[yep]

I'll have to try to be more subtle next time and make it harder.

That's ok, you know how slow I am.

--------------------
Michael Ross

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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
The comments and opinions that the 1.6 is an under dog at Road America simply are unfounded. Not sure how you watch that race and come to that conclusion, there was no sample? The entire case is based on one or two cars and 1.6 owners who are worried about things they have heard and not even seen for themselves. You simply can't base that entire argument on two cars. Since 99 owners aren't building older cars and racing them at Road America also proves nothing IMO. Not sure why anyone would do that if the cars are even? The only way I see people going back to a finicky 20+ year old car is if it is a clear overdog. To my knowledge there have been only two drivers show up at Road America all year with 1.6 cars that had any realistic chance of doing well in a competitive field. Shawn Slattery and Jeff Labounty.
Shawn finished P3 at Sprints regardless of how he got there had more power than my 99, so Imo he overachieved. Shawn finished p10 at the Runoffs. Labounty showed up at the Sprints in a 1.6 and finished p7 and finished p8 at the Runoffs in what many believe(including myself) to be one of the fastest 99's in the country. the Car won last years ARRC. Less substantial changes which I think we all agree are not needed, neither of these guys move up 7 and 10 positions respectfully in those fields to win.
Using the 1.6 logic I am hearing, Jeff should have won in a great 99 since he placed 7th with a 1.6 car? Someone should have told the rest of the field. Not sure how you explain why Jeff doesn't advance his position in not only a a "better" year car, but also he went from a "good" 1.6 car to an excellent 99 car.
We do not have a parity issue, despite the popular opinion. Please continue, don't let the facts stand in your way. [Roll Eyes]

Yo Drahhhgo,

How many owners of both 99's and 1.6's brought their 1.6's to this year's runoffs?

Social proof...that's a fact!

Steve D. Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Once you get past the gag reflex, the jelly ain't bad!

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quote:
Originally posted by JIM DANIELS:
quote:
Originally posted by Rob Burgoon:
Equal lap times and equal drivers (if there was such a thing) still does not mean equal cars.

Equal cars still does not mean equal lap times. Equal is the same driver in three cars and scratching his head on which one is best.
I am a mid-pack guy who owned a '99 and a 1.6 for a few months. I built a '99 just before shock hats became legal for the 1.6. After that, the handling difference was minimal (for a hack driver like me). I sold the 1.6 'cuz my '99 is prettier.

I couldn't definitively tell a lap time or competitive difference between the 2 cars. I dare say the same would be true for 95% of the drivers in this class.

Funny thing is that 95% of the drivers in this class think they are in the *other* 5%. [tipsy]

B(Kuch) Kucera 45 Verified Driver
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All you need is some in car video to show what is being argued about.Yes you have to drive a 99 diff.then a 1.6,but the 1.6 is harder to keep a fast lap time then the 99's through the hole race at RA.

What I mean is,when you watch a top notch 1.6 verse a 99 lap on video at RA you can see what I'm talking about.Just watch and be honest about what your watching and you can clearly see.The torque in the 99's clearly kills the 1.6,yes the 1.6 can keep up in a draft but get out of the draft and your history.

Yes the cars might be closer at flatter track's but not at RA.You can watch a guy in a 99 go through the carousel half throttle while a guy in a 1.6 is flat out,and the 99 still pulls on the 1.6 same lines.The 99 is more fogiving in a corner as well.What I mean is,mess up anywhere in a corner with a 99 and you have the torque to help make it up.With a 1.6 you can easily loose 2 car lenth's and spend a hole lap trying to get it back.

Just thinking out loud ! [scratchchin]

--------------------
Bob
!KUCH!

"All my drinking buddies have a racing problem"

B(Kuch) Kucera 45 Verified Driver
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No I didn't go to the Runoffs this year but I did last year.The reason I didn't go this year is because of money issue's and I knew my car had no chance in hell of even being in the top 10 or top 20 for that matter.Even with the best driver behind the wheel.

Pat do you have any video of Shawn's that you can share with us (a 1.6 driver)?

--------------------
Bob
!KUCH!

"All my drinking buddies have a racing problem"

David Dewhurst
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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
The comments and opinions that the 1.6 is an under dog at Road America simply are unfounded. Not sure how you watch that race and come to that conclusion, there was no sample? The entire case is based on one or two cars and 1.6 owners who are worried about things they have heard and not even seen for themselves. You simply can't base that entire argument on two cars. Since 99 owners aren't building older cars and racing them at Road America also proves nothing IMO. Not sure why anyone would do that if the cars are even? The only way I see people going back to a finicky 20+ year old car is if it is a clear overdog. To my knowledge there have been only two drivers show up at Road America all year with 1.6 cars that had any realistic chance of doing well in a competitive field. Shawn Slattery and Jeff Labounty.
Shawn finished P3 at Sprints regardless of how he got there had more power than my 99, so Imo he overachieved. Shawn finished p10 at the Runoffs. Labounty showed up at the Sprints in a 1.6 and finished p7 and finished p8 at the Runoffs in what many believe(including myself) to be one of the fastest 99's in the country. the Car won last years ARRC. Less substantial changes which I think we all agree are not needed, neither of these guys move up 7 and 10 positions respectfully in those fields to win.
Using the 1.6 logic I am hearing, Jeff should have won in a great 99 since he placed 7th with a 1.6 car? Someone should have told the rest of the field. Not sure how you explain why Jeff doesn't advance his position in not only a a "better" year car, but also he went from a "good" 1.6 car to an excellent 99 car.
We do not have a parity issue, despite the popular opinion. Please continue, don't let the facts stand in your way. [Roll Eyes]

If all ye say is the truth & nothing but the truth please explain the detail why by it's self the 99 can rundown & pass a 1.6 at Road America on the front straight & a 1.6 can't do the same to a 99?

--------------------
Have Fun [Wink]

David Dewhurst
CenDiv
Milwaukee Region
Spec Miata #14

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quote:
Originally posted by B(Kuch) Kucera 45:
You can watch a guy in a 99 go through the carousel half throttle while a guy in a 1.6 is flat out,and the 99 still pulls on the 1.6 same lines.
Just thinking out loud ! [scratchchin]

Bob
You know I love ya.. But the exact opposite of this is true? The 1.6 can easily flat the carousel and kink. It is actual the best 1.6 spot on the track, dont believe me, ask Pat and have him quote Shawns best sector and what data report showed and watch Weise video where he kills the 99's there. Not really a debatable point.
Anyone you are comparing to in a 99 that is half throttle is really not worth comparing to?

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
jdrago1@aol.com
2006-2007 Mid-West Division
07,09 June Sprints Champion

EAST STREET RACING

mat pombo Verified Driver
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Rebuilt my 1.6L car to try and make it happen like all of you say it can. Not a chance a 122 hp 1.6L car can compete. I built it legal and by the books exposing all the gray areas I know how to. Stopped trying in Aug. and focused on building a new '99 for the runoffs. Couldn't get it finished so I'm gonna debut it at the ARRC.

My brother went in his '99 that was not the fastest there, but was way faster at Rd Atlanta than our freshly runoffs prepped 1.6L car at a track day. So, MY OPINION is that the 1.6L car needs 2-3 hp and 5 ft.lbs of torque.

My suggestion is give the 99 a smaller straw (restrict it a bit more to take a couple horses and a few ft.lbs of torque) and see what happens with the 1.6L next year. Easy change. Remember, I am just finishing my $30k brand new '99 so why would I want to slow it up. I have the data on my traqmate......

I wasn't going to go to the runoffs to finish 5-10 in my 1.6L. If I had finished my '99 last month I would have went to win.

Most of us "front runners" also have 1.6L cars. I haven't driven ours the last 3 years except for endurance races. You figure out why...

I agree that we will never have true parity, but my letter to the CRB is cheap and easy to make it better:

1.6L cars: nothing
94-95: nothing
96-97: nothing
99-00: more restriction
01-05: needs help (35lbs off or less restriction)

Easy changes that will make this game closer, but it will never be perfect. I can only speak of my two cars and the fact that we put everything into our car prep for the data between our 99 and 1.6L.

Carry on...


No matter how flat you are in the carousel or the kink, they are not places to pass. This is why the suspension upgrades for the 1.6L are worthless. It already handles better, but cannot get up and go out of the corners to finish passes. Smart 99 drivers know this and can make it impossible for a 1.6L driver to get by.

B(Kuch) Kucera 45 Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
quote:
Originally posted by B(Kuch) Kucera 45:
You can watch a guy in a 99 go through the carousel half throttle while a guy in a 1.6 is flat out,and the 99 still pulls on the 1.6 same lines.
Just thinking out loud ! [scratchchin]

Bob
You know I love ya.. But the exact opposite of this is true? The 1.6 can easily flat the carousel and kink. It is actual the best 1.6 spot on the track, dont believe me, ask Pat and have him quote Shawns best sector and what data report showed and watch Weise video where he kills the 99's there. Not really a debatable point.
Anyone you are comparing to in a 99 that is half throttle is really not worth comparing to?

I love you to Jim,maybe we can share a room together next year at RA! [Big Grin]

I'm saving my pennies now!

--------------------
Bob
!KUCH!

"All my drinking buddies have a racing problem"

B(Kuch) Kucera 45 Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by mat pombo:
Rebuilt my 1.6L car to try and make it happen like all of you say it can. Not a chance a 122 hp 1.6L car can compete. I built it legal and by the books exposing all the gray areas I know how to. Stopped trying in Aug. and focused on building a new '99 for the runoffs. Couldn't get it finished so I'm gonna debut it at the ARRC.

My brother went in his '99 that was not the fastest there, but was way faster at Rd Atlanta than our freshly runoffs prepped 1.6L car at a track day. So, MY OPINION is that the 1.6L car needs 2-3 hp and 5 ft.lbs of torque.

My suggestion is give the 99 a smaller straw (restrict it a bit more to take a couple horses and a few ft.lbs of torque) and see what happens with the 1.6L next year. Easy change. Remember, I am just finishing my $30k brand new '99 so why would I want to slow it up. I have the data on my traqmate......

I wasn't going to go to the runoffs to finish 5-10 in my 1.6L. If I had finished my '99 last month I would have went to win.

Most of us "front runners" also have 1.6L cars. I haven't driven ours the last 3 years except for endurance races. You figure out why...

I agree that we will never have true parity, but my letter to the CRB is cheap and easy to make it better:

1.6L cars: nothing
94-95: nothing
96-97: nothing
99-00: more restriction
01-05: needs help (35lbs off or less restriction)

Easy changes that will make this game closer, but it will never be perfect. I can only speak of my two cars and the fact that we put everything into our car prep for the data between our 99 and 1.6L.

Carry on...


No matter how flat you are in the carousel or the kink, they are not places to pass. This is why the suspension upgrades for the 1.6L are worthless. It already handles better, but cannot get up and go out of the corners to finish passes. Smart 99 drivers know this and can make it impossible for a 1.6L driver to get by.

+1
easy and cheap! [thumbsup]

--------------------
Bob
!KUCH!

"All my drinking buddies have a racing problem"

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by B(Kuch) Kucera 45:
room together next year at RA! [Big Grin]

[/QB]

+1 [Big Grin]

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
jdrago1@aol.com
2006-2007 Mid-West Division
07,09 June Sprints Champion

EAST STREET RACING

Johnny D Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
quote:
Originally posted by B(Kuch) Kucera 45:
room together next year at RA! [Big Grin]


+1 [Big Grin] [/QB]
You need to add his other quote.

easy and cheap!

J~

--------------------
Avatar Video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ww9cFE3lKcA

B(Kuch) Kucera 45 Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Johnny D:
quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
quote:
Originally posted by B(Kuch) Kucera 45:
room together next year at RA! [Big Grin]


+1 [Big Grin]

You need to add his other quote.

easy and cheap!

J~ [/QB]

A few beer's and i'll be your huckleberry! [yep] [rolling on floor laughin] LMAO

--------------------
Bob
!KUCH!

"All my drinking buddies have a racing problem"

MPR22
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quote:
Originally posted by mat pombo:
Rebuilt my 1.6L car to try and make it happen like all of you say it can. Not a chance a 122 hp 1.6L car can compete. I built it legal and by the books exposing all the gray areas I know how to. Stopped trying in Aug. and focused on building a new '99 for the runoffs. Couldn't get it finished so I'm gonna debut it at the ARRC.

My brother went in his '99 that was not the fastest there, but was way faster at Rd Atlanta than our freshly runoffs prepped 1.6L car at a track day. So, MY OPINION is that the 1.6L car needs 2-3 hp and 5 ft.lbs of torque.

My suggestion is give the 99 a smaller straw (restrict it a bit more to take a couple horses and a few ft.lbs of torque) and see what happens with the 1.6L next year. Easy change. Remember, I am just finishing my $30k brand new '99 so why would I want to slow it up. I have the data on my traqmate......

I wasn't going to go to the runoffs to finish 5-10 in my 1.6L. If I had finished my '99 last month I would have went to win.

Most of us "front runners" also have 1.6L cars. I haven't driven ours the last 3 years except for endurance races. You figure out why...

I agree that we will never have true parity, but my letter to the CRB is cheap and easy to make it better:

1.6L cars: nothing
94-95: nothing
96-97: nothing
99-00: more restriction
01-05: needs help (35lbs off or less restriction)

Easy changes that will make this game closer, but it will never be perfect. I can only speak of my two cars and the fact that we put everything into our car prep for the data between our 99 and 1.6L.

Carry on...


No matter how flat you are in the carousel or the kink, they are not places to pass. This is why the suspension upgrades for the 1.6L are worthless. It already handles better, but cannot get up and go out of the corners to finish passes. Smart 99 drivers know this and can make it impossible for a 1.6L driver to get by.

Mat,

Careful saying you have data to prove the 99 is an overdog to the 1.6 at RA. Someone will start coming up with reasons your data is no good. Not a large enough sample size, you don't know how to build a top 1.6, not a top driver......you know all the usual responses.

I think the 99 should get a little fatter exhaust, theortically should reduce the back pressure and reduce torque a tad.

Back to the garage, I have to strip the interior out of my underdog 99 so I can get the cage built.

--------------------
Michael Ross

mr von charbonneau
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first I would like to say nice hemet danny [rolling on floor laughin] [rolling on floor laughin] [rolling on floor laughin] [help]
I think you in the pic would be better in a thong

we now you have the tech. to make it happen

second race parity was said best by dragoi or what ever the guy on seedcast said

but thirdly 99 sm more forgiving easier dr than

1.6 , thats why the disparity would like toee end this please pick on me so that we can have some fun on here

and quit trying to make you 1.6s worth more so that you can buy a 99 [shame]

mr von charbonneau
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here i come

iambhooper
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quote:
Originally posted by mat pombo:
Rebuilt my 1.6L car to try and make it happen like all of you say it can. Not a chance a 122 hp 1.6L car can compete. I built it legal and by the books exposing all the gray areas I know how to. Stopped trying in Aug. and focused on building a new '99 for the runoffs. Couldn't get it finished so I'm gonna debut it at the ARRC.

My brother went in his '99 that was not the fastest there, but was way faster at Rd Atlanta than our freshly runoffs prepped 1.6L car at a track day. So, MY OPINION is that the 1.6L car needs 2-3 hp and 5 ft.lbs of torque.

My suggestion is give the 99 a smaller straw (restrict it a bit more to take a couple horses and a few ft.lbs of torque) and see what happens with the 1.6L next year. Easy change. Remember, I am just finishing my $30k brand new '99 so why would I want to slow it up. I have the data on my traqmate......

I wasn't going to go to the runoffs to finish 5-10 in my 1.6L. If I had finished my '99 last month I would have went to win.

Most of us "front runners" also have 1.6L cars. I haven't driven ours the last 3 years except for endurance races. You figure out why...

I agree that we will never have true parity, but my letter to the CRB is cheap and easy to make it better:

1.6L cars: nothing
94-95: nothing
96-97: nothing
99-00: more restriction
01-05: needs help (35lbs off or less restriction)

Easy changes that will make this game closer, but it will never be perfect. I can only speak of my two cars and the fact that we put everything into our car prep for the data between our 99 and 1.6L.

Carry on...


No matter how flat you are in the carousel or the kink, they are not places to pass. This is why the suspension upgrades for the 1.6L are worthless. It already handles better, but cannot get up and go out of the corners to finish passes. Smart 99 drivers know this and can make it impossible for a 1.6L driver to get by.

+2

--------------------
hoop
'91 Spec Miata
'90 NA Beater/Track Day car
'06 RSX Type S

mr von charbonneau
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I think dragoigo or what ever the speedcast guy said [rolling on floor laughin] is spot on would like to see this tread stop no parity or parity 99 easier drive that 1.6 . [yep] so you must wheel a 1.6 and hit your marks in 99 watch my save in 5 would have spun it i think .

would like this subject ended please start picking on me this sight well be more fun on this subject

or just make fun of dannys helmet
its better looking then he would be in a thong [Eek!]

mr von charbonneau
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hey I got it sell your 1.6 back to a female and bulid a 99 oh but wait

I forgot we must make a change so we call sell our 1.6 for more mony so that we can build a 99

mr von charbonneau
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+ 67 hey daniles love the edit button

B(Kuch) Kucera 45 Verified Driver
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Hey Mr Mountain Dew can you slow down,I can't read that fast! [Big Grin] [laughing] [rolling on floor laughin] [rolling on floor laughin]

--------------------
Bob
!KUCH!

"All my drinking buddies have a racing problem"

 
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