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Author Topic: Runoffs notes from Jim Daniels
Mitch Reading Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Danny Steyn:
What really blew me away was watching DDG every day at the Runoffs, measuring the relative humidity, dew point, temp, track temps, then putting Steves car on the dyno BEFORE the session (Q1, Q2 Q3 and the race day) and swapping out a variety of MAF sensors to tune the car for the conditions that would be encountered on the track in the next hour.


Tough decision for ALL[/QB]

Did anyone else at the runoffs in SM bring this level of 'at track' resources?

--------------------
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JIM DANIELS Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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Someone remind me the legal way to get 28 degrees of timing and a flat 12.5 afr on the '99. I'm so out of touch that I forgot.

--------------------
Jim Daniels

MAZDARACERS.COM

Alex Bolanos Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by JIM DANIELS:
Someone remind me the legal way to get 28 degrees of timing and a flat 12.5 afr on the '99. I'm so out of touch that I forgot.

The day the cars were spun (day two), everyone had 24 degrees or less and fat AFRs past 5000rpm. The problem was that most people ran their good times on Monday (cough 42.9) so the damage was done. You can clearly see though that everyone magically slowed down after that post qual dyno session...

Jamie Tucker Series Champ

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See what happens when your out of the loop Jim! Seriously; no one said anything about how, as I am sure you would expect, only that not much power was lost from the numbers seen with the ECU. You know better then anybody what the real gain with the ECU was/is (3/2) so it is not a stretch to say that some have figured out how to get it back.

--------------------
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Steve D. Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Once you get past the gag reflex, the jelly ain't bad!

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quote:
Originally posted by Rich:
W
I
E
S
E

I before e except after c

Correct spelling on this site? Let's focus on something achievable, like parity! [Big Grin]

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quote:
Originally posted by JIM DANIELS:
Someone remind me the legal way to get 28 degrees of timing and a flat 12.5 afr on the '99. I'm so out of touch that I forgot.

hey Jim;
you ?? ... nah ...
they're so far 'in' touch they now say they don't need 5th down the back straight at Rd Atlanta
[Roll Eyes]
i know i'm old, senile and half nuts, but jees loueese ...
i love all these 'games' ... nothing changes, same as it ever was ...
[Big Grin]

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by JIM DANIELS:
Someone remind me the legal way to get 28 degrees of timing and a flat 12.5 afr on the '99. I'm so out of touch that I forgot.

Havent seen any remapped ecus with a flat Air:fuel? Maybe I am out of the loop [Big Grin] The fuel curve was shifted, but the shape remained the same. Sure it is coming if not here already. But "I" havent seen it.
No one said 28 degress on timing, but 26.5 is easily doable if you bin match all the mechanical/electrical parts in that chain. Thus the 1/1 loss.

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
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2006-2007 Mid-West Division
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EAST STREET RACING

Danny Steyn Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve D.:
quote:
Originally posted by Rich:
W
I
E
S
E

I before e except after c

Correct spelling on this site? Let's focus on something achievable, like parity! [Big Grin]
Youre always good for a laugh Steve - thanks for keeping the sanity!

--------------------
Danny
http://www.dannysteyn.com
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Alex Bolanos Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
quote:
Originally posted by JIM DANIELS:
Someone remind me the legal way to get 28 degrees of timing and a flat 12.5 afr on the '99. I'm so out of touch that I forgot.

Havent seen any remapped ecus with a flat Air:fuel? Maybe I am out of the loop [Big Grin] The fuel curve was shifted, but the shape remained the same. Sure it is coming if not here already. But "I" havent seen it.
No one said 28 degress on timing, but 26.5 is easily doable if you bin match all the mechanical/electrical parts in that chain. Thus the 1/1 loss.

That 26.5 would have bounced you at the OBD2 port timing check after Q2 no?

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quote:
Originally posted by Alex Bolanos:

Agreed, none of the 1.6s I've driven hit fifth on the front straight or going into the hairpin... Was this back in the Hoosierdaddy SM6 days? Maybe your exit speed out of 5 and 17 is the reason? [/QB][/QUOTE]
-------------------------------------------------
Just saw my old in car videos;
nope to Hoosierdaddys, on Toyos, in a 117 hp 1.6, 48 degree day;
- coming out of 17, 4th gear at 150 feet before the 'pit in' bridge, 5th at 250 feet before the 'pit out' bridge into T-1.
- 5th at 100 feet before the bridge leading into the hairpin
- 5th at 3/4 way down the back straight, 200 feet before the #5 brake marker
On a 94 degree Labor Day on Hoosiers;
- front straight - 5th at 100 feet before bridge
- to hairpin straight- 5th just at the bridge
- back straight - 5th just before #5 marker.
Have no clue why youse guys don't see the same with your easily +6 hp packages ... will ask von Charbie to pipe in and say where he saw 5th gear at Sebring in January in the Skunk-works 1.6 ...
T. Bee - do you remember my rental blueberry's last race at Sebring? Labor day ECR - you and me going down the back straight side by side, mirror to mirror, me making faces at you, dead even until i hit the rev limiter in 4th at the #3 marker going into T-17? Thats how you surged ahead by a car length, i shoulda shortshifted at 6,800 RPM, woulda held you off ...
[duck]
we went at it side by side, bumper to bumper for 90 min, ya beat me by 2 car lengths in your 1.8 'pumpkin' and never ever a scratch, over 20 races, never a scratch.
Remember telling your Dad at impound after that race i threw everything at you including the kitchen sink, you one tough hombre ...
[thumbsup]

enuff 'back in the day' drivel from me, back to the topic of why the 1.6 is equal today to the '99's
[help]

Jamie Tucker Series Champ

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quote:
Originally posted by Alex Bolanos:
quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
quote:
Originally posted by JIM DANIELS:
Someone remind me the legal way to get 28 degrees of timing and a flat 12.5 afr on the '99. I'm so out of touch that I forgot.

Havent seen any remapped ecus with a flat Air:fuel? Maybe I am out of the loop [Big Grin] The fuel curve was shifted, but the shape remained the same. Sure it is coming if not here already. But "I" havent seen it.
No one said 28 degress on timing, but 26.5 is easily doable if you bin match all the mechanical/electrical parts in that chain. Thus the 1/1 loss.

That 26.5 would have bounced you at the OBD2 port timing check after Q2 no?
No it would not! I will help you grasshopper

--------------------
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Alex Bolanos Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Tucker:
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Bolanos:
quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
quote:
Originally posted by JIM DANIELS:
Someone remind me the legal way to get 28 degrees of timing and a flat 12.5 afr on the '99. I'm so out of touch that I forgot.

Havent seen any remapped ecus with a flat Air:fuel? Maybe I am out of the loop [Big Grin] The fuel curve was shifted, but the shape remained the same. Sure it is coming if not here already. But "I" havent seen it.
No one said 28 degress on timing, but 26.5 is easily doable if you bin match all the mechanical/electrical parts in that chain. Thus the 1/1 loss.

That 26.5 would have bounced you at the OBD2 port timing check after Q2 no?
No it would not! I will help you grasshopper
Uh, yes it would have. It was explained pretty clear to all of us '99ers with the targets on our backs. "If the OBD2 reader shows your timing passed 24 degrees while we spin the car on the dyno, you're tossed." Did I hear wrong?

I'll take the help anyway though knuckles! Until I can order my $15 timing plate on 1/1/11 that is... [thumbsup]

Jamie Tucker Series Champ

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Will explain when I talk to you.

--------------------
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Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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What the Obiwan2 port reports and what the engine sees are NOT the same....

--------------------
Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
What the Obiwan2 port reports and what the engine sees are NOT the same....

Eaxactly. Thus why some were not afraid of dyno testing and OBD2 port logging

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
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2006-2007 Mid-West Division
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EAST STREET RACING

Dwayne Hoover Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:

No one said 28 degress on timing, but 26.5 is easily doable if you bin match all the mechanical/electrical parts in that chain. Thus the 1/1 loss.

I agree, but there you go again giving away all my prep. [Wink]

Would now be a convenient time to point out the section of the FSM that says 15 degrees base is legal for a '99? I'm sure I'm not the only one that noticed, but I wasn't going to say anything publically so long as the Chicken Littles continued to fight the concept of letting all the OTHER people get their timing right for $19.99 instead of $1000 of bin matching or a $500 donation to McClughan's retirement fund.

A lot can change between getting tossed and the time you win an appeal ... I was never too worried about getting a 25-27 degree car through on appeal, anyway.

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Dwayne Hoover Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
What the Obiwan2 port reports and what the engine sees are NOT the same....

On my car it is! Did you mean to say it doesn't have to be the same?

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Danny Steyn Verified Driver
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"What a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to .........

remind me, how does the rest of Walter Scott's quote go!!!!!!! [shame] [rolling on floor laughin] [shame]

--------------------
Danny
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http://www.adeptstudios.com
OPM Autosports | Traqmate | Rossini Racing Engines
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Dwayne Hoover Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by guest driver:
the 1.6 may be more expensive to build to a competitive level, more difficult to tune, to set up, to drive, and it may even be "equal" at most other tracks ... but at the one race a year that counts it dont have a chance in hell.
Acknowledge that first, then say it's not in the best interests of the overall class to make changes to accomodate it.

Man, I don't buy that ... the 1.6 hates heat and it hates low RPM corner exits (Mid Ohio Turn 1), and Road America has neither.

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guest driver
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I am told there apparently are some SCCA tech shed legal 125 hp 1.6's out there, that, properly set up and driven and if permitted by the center stage magicians, should win at RA, Mid Ohio, Rd Atl, heck anywhere as we can see from all the above recent posts, the '99's will only be slower next year.


[tipsy]

[ 10-06-2010, 07:06 PM: Message edited by: guest driver ]

Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Dwayne Hoover:
quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
What the Obiwan2 port reports and what the engine sees are NOT the same....

On my car it is! Did you mean to say it doesn't have to be the same?
Obiwan only reports what it thinks it is sending to the motor. With careful work, the ECU can think is is providing X degrees of advance when the flame front is actually seeing X+y. Unless you have put a timing light on the car and read the Obiwan2 at the same time, you don't know....

--------------------
Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Danny Steyn:
"What a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to achieve.

remind me, how does the rest of Walter Scott's quote go!!!!!!! [shame] [rolling on floor laughin] [shame]

There... fully SCCA compliant quote.

--------------------
Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by guest driver:
me neither MB, just quoting others.
I am told there apparently are some SCCA tech shed legal 125 hp 1.6's out there, that, properly set up and driven and if permitted by the center stage magicians, should win at RA, Mid Ohio, Rd Atl, heck anywhere as we can see from all the above recent posts, the '99's will only be slower next year.


[tipsy]

Mr Bennet is one that had a 125 hp 1.6, ask him and yes after cam specs

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
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2006-2007 Mid-West Division
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EAST STREET RACING

Danny Steyn Verified Driver
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Thanks Kent!!!!!

--------------------
Danny
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http://www.adeptstudios.com
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2010 June Sprints Champ, 2010 ARRC SMX Champ
2009 SARRC Champ, 2009 SEDiv ECR Champ, 2009 FES Champ
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Jamie Tucker Series Champ

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quote:
Originally posted by Dwayne Hoover:
quote:
Originally posted by Drago:

No one said 28 degress on timing, but 26.5 is easily doable if you bin match all the mechanical/electrical parts in that chain. Thus the 1/1 loss.

I agree, but there you go again giving away all my prep. [Wink]

Would now be a convenient time to point out the section of the FSM that says 15 degrees base is legal for a '99? I'm sure I'm not the only one that noticed, but I wasn't going to say anything publically so long as the Chicken Littles continued to fight the concept of letting all the OTHER people get their timing right for $19.99 instead of $1000 of bin matching or a $500 donation to McClughan's retirement fund.

A lot can change between getting tossed and the time you win an appeal ... I was never too worried about getting a 25-27 degree car through on appeal, anyway.

This guy makes to much sense!! [yep]

--------------------
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guest driver
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and so the soap opera continues ...
betcha 130/118 is a legal reality next year for the '99's, about dead even with the 1.6 huh?

darmstrong Verified Driver
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Those who are afraid of splitting the class need not worry, the class is already split. Those who have the $$$ to spend (either on a 99, the majority, or 1.6, obvious minority), and those like me that do not. I have no aspirations, or delusions of racing the Runoff's, but at some point the insanity of making a "Spec" series a competition that relies more on shades of gray tuning is turning us into nothing more than the NASCAR of road racing, spend and bend the rules until either the "powers that be" finally step in, or drive out the foundation of the class because it costs to much to try to keep up with those with the deep pockets.
In my case all the money and prep would not do as much as a day of coaching, and that is where I am going to spend my $$$. I have seen this same cascade of events when I raced shifter karts, which eventually helped kill off any growth of the class.

Dave Armstrong
#66 Spec Miata

B(Kuch) Kucera 45 Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
quote:
Originally posted by guest driver:
me neither MB, just quoting others.
I am told there apparently are some SCCA tech shed legal 125 hp 1.6's out there, that, properly set up and driven and if permitted by the center stage magicians, should win at RA, Mid Ohio, Rd Atl, heck anywhere as we can see from all the above recent posts, the '99's will only be slower next year.


[tipsy]

Mr Bennet is one that had a 125 hp 1.6, ask him and yes after cam specs
Jim let me start by saying,"brother's don't shake brother's hug". [Big Grin]

Let me ask the question , why switch to a 99 then? [Razz]

I had to ask!

--------------------
Bob
!KUCH!

"All my drinking buddies have a racing problem"

B(Kuch) Kucera 45 Verified Driver
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I think the car's are close just not perfect for RA.I think the car's are closer at Mid-O then RA by a mile!

--------------------
Bob
!KUCH!

"All my drinking buddies have a racing problem"

mr von charbonneau
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hey I think i have it let us make a new rule

let the 1.6 guys get a head start maybe even a split start 1.6 fastes lap both years RA

only 5 cars that means a better chance for a close finish. [yep]

but wait there is more if we split the class
and two run groups they are still going to run together so what happens when a 99 takes a 1.6 as a drafting partner same ending a 1.6 will leave the other 1.6s and the 99 might finish second

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If this were a three way argument/discussuion about which SM group is fastest - 94-97, 1.6's or 99's I would agree that we are pretty close to parity, but...

The 94-97's seem to have disappeared from this discussion - all about whether the 1.6 or 99 is the top dog. Not one post about the midyears having any unfair advantage.

If you guys can't figure out (after 300+ posts)how to equalize the 1.6 and 99, maybe its really
the early 1.8's that need help (?)

Just stumping for my '94. [thumbsup]

Rgds

Rich Verified Driver
Oh, that's where that is.

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Now wait a minute who stole von c's password I could almost understand that last post?

Drago and I always had closer cars in March at gateway at least from my perspective. In august he usually struggled more and he always said it was the heat and the restrictor. I offered to "agree" to let him run plateless but he must have seen the papers I was hiding in my trailer cause he didn't take me up on it

--------------------
Rich Wiese

Spec Wrecker Ford

John Mueller Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Okay, not the slowest anymore...

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quote:
Originally posted by Rich:
Now wait a minute who stole von c's password I could almost understand that last post?

[rolling on floor laughin] [rolling on floor laughin] [rolling on floor laughin]

--------------------
Thanks,
John Mueller
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#13 "Tiger Miata" - 2009 SoCal SSM Champion

Jamie Tucker Series Champ

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quote:
Originally posted by John Mueller:
quote:
Originally posted by Rich:
Now wait a minute who stole von c's password I could almost understand that last post?

[rolling on floor laughin] [rolling on floor laughin] [rolling on floor laughin]
Von C is on double secret specmiata.com probation! The champ on probation; thats not right.

--------------------
2010 ARRC Champion
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http://forum.specmiata.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/43/3601.html

--------------------
-Jason Saini :: Fort Worth, TX
-Team MER :: 2007 MX-5 Cup Champion
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quote:
Originally posted by B(Kuch) Kucera 45:
Let me ask the question , why switch to a 99 then? [Razz]

I had to ask! [/QB]

Answered several times already! (But perhaps answered most recently and most completely on a website we are not allowed to mention here). The 99 is better to own for a long list of reasons beyond outright speed. To make a 1.6 as good as it can be and keep it there is a lot of hassle.

--------------------
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Rich Verified Driver
Oh, that's where that is.

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quote:
Originally posted by Jason Saini:
http://forum.specmiata.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/43/3601.html

Just as spot-on now as it was then.

--------------------
Rich Wiese

Spec Wrecker Ford

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Rich:
quote:
Originally posted by Jason Saini:
http://forum.specmiata.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/43/3601.html

Just as spot-on now as it was then.
[thumbsup] [thumbsup]
Except don't plan the phase out of 1.6 for now or extend it to 5 years.

-bw

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

Z-ville Racing Club Verified Driver
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Enough Already Split the Class: How long do you keep a 20 year old car the benchmark?

The 1.6's can be competitive in their own class. The cars for sale will be absorbed and their values will go up.

Then rather than trying to slow down the 1.8's they can remove the restrictor plates, etc.

With both being competitive each class can grow.

Just my $0.02.

Rich Verified Driver
Oh, that's where that is.

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5 year sunset on the 1.6 is almost enough time to wear out a Sunbelt!

--------------------
Rich Wiese

Spec Wrecker Ford

B(Kuch) Kucera 45 Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Dwayne Hoover:
quote:
Originally posted by B(Kuch) Kucera 45:
Let me ask the question , why switch to a 99 then? [Razz]

I had to ask!

Answered several times already! (But perhaps answered most recently and most completely on a website we are not allowed to mention here). The 99 is better to own for a long list of reasons beyond outright speed. To make a 1.6 as good as it can be and keep it there is a lot of hassle. [/QB]
I understand and knew the answer,I was just messing with Jim. [Razz]

My question is how much longer the 99 will be the car to have? [scratchchin]

I would hate to make the change and find out a year later that it's not the car to have.I don't have deap pocket's like some guy's,hell I don't think I even have any pockets!

--------------------
Bob
!KUCH!

"All my drinking buddies have a racing problem"

jsmitty
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If the 1.6 parts/motors are harder and harder to find, and a 1.8 swap to the early cars would help equalize things, then what's the downside of allowing 1.6 owners to do so?

John Mueller Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Okay, not the slowest anymore...

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quote:
Originally posted by jsmitty:
If the 1.6 parts/motors are harder and harder to find, and a 1.8 swap to the early cars would help equalize things, then what's the downside of allowing 1.6 owners to do so?

Unnecessary $$$ is a crap economy !!! At some point this will inevitably happen, but does it need to now?

--------------------
Thanks,
John Mueller
NASA SM National Director
http://www.Weekend-Racer.com
#13 "Tiger Miata" - 2009 SoCal SSM Champion

Jason Saini Verified Driver Series Champ
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My whole idea in that other thread is that people could choose to convert to 1.8, '99 spec if they wanted to... you really would never have to force it. At some point everyone needs a new engine, why not buy a 1.8 instead of a 1.6 next time you need one?

Clearly, if the plan to convert to 1.8 over time were adopted, pricing for the required management/wiring harness would be cheap knowing that 2000 people would possibly be buying the conversion, eventually.

Regardless, I don't disagree that a header or something else on the 1.6 is a bad idea at this point either. It's up to the SMAC and SEB to talk about all these solutions and figure something out and I commend their efforts as it's not either technically or politically easy.

--------------------
-Jason Saini :: Fort Worth, TX
-Team MER :: 2007 MX-5 Cup Champion
-2008 SPEED TC Rookie of the Year!
-Based at Motorsport Ranch
-Autobarn Mazda . SafeRACER

pat slattery Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Jason I like the 1.8 idea, but its all the other stuff that has to go with it, new wiring harness, computers, intake, exhaust. That is where the extra expense come in.

Why not allow the 1.6 to punch the bore out some, raise compression, or something to that effect and than raise the weight closer on the car or reduce weight on the 99.

Just bouncing off ideas. Your idea seems good, except for having to come up with all the extras parts beside the motor.
pat

--------------------
keeping the faith for the 1.6

Arrow Karts

Rob Burgoon Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Jason Saini:
My whole idea in that other thread is that people could choose to convert to 1.8, '99 spec if they wanted to... you really would never have to force it. At some point everyone needs a new engine, why not buy a 1.8 instead of a 1.6 next time you need one?

I was thinking 94-97 engine in a 90-93 car, but +1 just the same.

--------------------
It really makes my week when nobody crashes into me.

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by John Mueller:
quote:
Originally posted by jsmitty:
If the 1.6 parts/motors are harder and harder to find, and a 1.8 swap to the early cars would help equalize things, then what's the downside of allowing 1.6 owners to do so?

Unnecessary $$$ is a crap economy !!! At some point this will inevitably happen, but does it need to now?
By 5 years, we would have gone through 1 more upturn in the economy, and likely heading to our next bubble by then [help]

-bw

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

 
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