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Author Topic: Timing, A/F and a Muffler WHAT?
JIM DANIELS Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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I'm wondering how things get done around here......

Timing and a/f is not legal but lots of folks do it. So, we make it legal.

DDG shows up with a muffler at the Runoffs that creates a flat belly at the rear of the car. It is legal unless you cite "can't perform any other function". Even then, tech cannot prove it works to serve any other function so it was raced. His muffler will be ruled out next year.

In a strange way, the rule makers are doing what the masses want? [Smash]

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OR, if the right person sells them they could become legal?
Kind of what you're saying, right?

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Jerry

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That muffler was illegal, not even tech legal. It just wasn't looked at like many other things this year and bottom ends last year. [Confused] It was legal like a turbocharger is legal IMO.

Also rumored to have fins on the bottom? I didnt see it, so I don't know? Maybe David can explain here why he feels that a rear diffusor disguised as a muffler is legal? [Big Grin] [Eek!] I just can't see that passing a protest or if anyone actually ever looked at it?

C. AUTHORIZED MODIFICATIONS
9. Permitted components or modifications
must not perform a prohibited function.

Jim

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pat slattery Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I got a look at it when it was on the Dyno, it certainly sounded different and looked strange, and big and bulky looking. Don't know if it was a smoke screen or for real.

Sort of like the "rich" and "lean" toggle switch he had mounted inside his car [Smile]

Seriously, if we knew it was illegal, than why was nothing done, he was in tech, wasn't he?

pat

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I disagree with Mr Drago on the muffler.

As long as only a single muffler was used it is legal. There is no retriction on who manufactured the muffler, nor what shape it can be. The pipe size is stated and the exit point must be beyond the subframe. Otherwise the muffler is open.

I think DDG read the rules and came up with a plausable interpritation. But he was not the first fabricator to think of this idea.

I totally agree with the lack of tech

Dave

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quote:
Originally posted by davew:
I disagree with Mr Drago on the muffler.

As long as only a single muffler was used it is legal. There is no retriction on who manufactured the muffler, nor what shape it can be. The pipe size is stated and the exit point must be beyond the subframe. Otherwise the muffler is open.

I think DDG read the rules and came up with a plausable interpritation. But he was not the first fabricator to think of this idea.

I totally agree with the lack of tech

Dave

I guess we can always make it double secret super duper illegal like we did last year and his exhaust? [Wink] [Big Grin]

I see tortured interpretation and IMO, never passes if looked at or protested. Would have been nice to have seen a decision made on it. I guess the question is if any "normal" person would agree it performed a prohibitd function. I would like to think our tech staff is smart enough to make that call.

I agree, I have often thought of doing the same thing, but in my mind, I knew it was only "legal" until someone saw it. I give him credit for actually doing it.

From all accounts, it was not on the car on Tuesday when Steve was dynoed? I personally was not at that session.

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Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by davew:
I disagree with Mr Drago on the muffler.

As long as only a single muffler was used it is legal. There is no retriction on who manufactured the muffler, nor what shape it can be. The pipe size is stated and the exit point must be beyond the subframe. Otherwise the muffler is open.

I think DDG read the rules and came up with a plausable interpritation. But he was not the first fabricator to think of this idea.

I totally agree with the lack of tech

Dave

Once again, Dave, that's not what the rules say.

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JIM DANIELS Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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No he was not the first. Dave, we agree that it must be proven to serve another function to be illegal, right?

My take is this, if it violated a current rule we would not need new rules to clarify?

In the end, what can't be proven to violate the "performs another tasks" rule wins on appeal.

Reminds me of the 2002ish shift knob and pedal extension debate only the muffler has no supporters.

Damn you DDG, I was saving that for myself.....

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Shit knob and excremental RPM?

JIM DANIELS Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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Dave,

Just a guess here, have you already designed your own version of the DDG? [duck]

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Jim Daniels

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quote:
Originally posted by d mathias:
Shit knob and excremental RPM?

When I start misspelling words "you people" learn something. Want me to spell check? [Wink]

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Jim Daniels

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quote:
Originally posted by JIM DANIELS:
Dave,

Just a guess here, have you already designed your own version of the DDG? [duck]

Dave had one on Voytek's car during the year. I never said anything, because I thought it was rather clever. It did not have fins and was not a diffuser, so it was totally legal IMO.

JIM DANIELS Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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Anyone remember these on Shannon's 1.6 I drove for him?

Spark plus wire

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So, what's the deal with the muffler? It's legal unless tech can prove it reduces drag and prevents lift?

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quote:
Originally posted by JIM DANIELS:
Anyone remember these on Shannon's 1.6 I drove for him?

Spark plus wire

For the uneducated JD what is it. Some kinds of a spark enhancer?

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JIM DANIELS Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by pat slattery:
quote:
Originally posted by JIM DANIELS:
Anyone remember these on Shannon's 1.6 I drove for him?

Spark plus wire

For the uneducated JD what is it. Some kinds of a spark enhancer?
[yep]

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quote:
Originally posted by JIM DANIELS:
I'm wondering how things get done around here......

Timing and a/f is not legal but lots of folks do it. So, we make it legal.

Sounds like Sunbelts in Miatas from 1999 (SSB) to 2002 (SM) to me? (Where is that 2002-2005 Sunbelt Salesman Of The Year Award anyway?) [Wink]

Where did cam blanks and Comp bushings come from?

Plenty of poison fruit "around here", but not any of it that didn't fall from a poison tree that predates the current SMAC/CRB by at least 5 years.

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JIM DANIELS Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Dwayne Hoover:
quote:
Originally posted by JIM DANIELS:
I'm wondering how things get done around here......

Timing and a/f is not legal but lots of folks do it. So, we make it legal.

Sounds like Sunbelts in Miatas from 1999 (SSB) to 2002 (SM) to me? (Where is that 2002-2005 Sunbelt Salesman Of The Year Award anyway?) [Wink]

Where did cam blanks and Comp bushings come from?

Plenty of poison fruit "around here", but not any of it that didn't fall from a poison tree that predates the current SMAC/CRB by at least 5 years.

Exactly [Smile]

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quote:
Originally posted by JIM DANIELS:
quote:
Originally posted by Dwayne Hoover:
quote:
Originally posted by JIM DANIELS:
I'm wondering how things get done around here......

Timing and a/f is not legal but lots of folks do it. So, we make it legal.

Sounds like Sunbelts in Miatas from 1999 (SSB) to 2002 (SM) to me? (Where is that 2002-2005 Sunbelt Salesman Of The Year Award anyway?) [Wink]

Where did cam blanks and Comp bushings come from?

Plenty of poison fruit "around here", but not any of it that didn't fall from a poison tree that predates the current SMAC/CRB by at least 5 years.

Exactly [Smile]
+1

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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:


C. AUTHORIZED MODIFICATIONS
9. Permitted components or modifications
must not perform a prohibited function.


If that is indeed quoted from the rules, then the wording could use some tuning. Air diffusion is not a prohibited function anywhere right? I thought the rule said something more akin to "permitted component must not perform a secondary function" or something to that effect. In the end, I think this is where a scrutineer and the COA should have the balls to say, "it quacks like a duck..."

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quote:
Originally posted by Dusty Bottoms:
Air diffusion is not a prohibited function anywhere right?

It's prohibited by the "if it doesn't say you can, then you can't" rule. Or do you think I can show up with a turbo on my car at the next event because it doesn't explicitly say it is prohibited anywhere in the rules and it is just an extension of my "free" intake. [Wink]

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quote:
Originally posted by Todd Green:
quote:
Originally posted by Dusty Bottoms:
Air diffusion is not a prohibited function anywhere right?

It's prohibited by the "if it doesn't say you can, then you can't" rule. Or do you think I can show up with a turbo on my car at the next event because it doesn't explicitly say it is prohibited anywhere in the rules and it is just an extension of my "free" intake. [Wink]
Hum, would you argue a turbo is an intake or exhaust component?

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It says "prohibited" which is explicit and it infers that if it is not explicitly outlawed then it's OK. It's a lot different than my wording suggestion.

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A turbo is just a muffler with a centrifugal air cleaner attached. Mufflers are required and air filters are free. No where does the GCR prohibit pressurizing the intake air. Turbos are legal.

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So, if we had stayed with the original Mazda SM system this would never have been an issue.
Why did we not require it? and to think they only cost $160...............

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I'm just saying prohibited is not the best use of the word. After all, apparently someone got away with running a diffuser muffler. I'm just saying... change that word.

You guys should come up with a more original retort than the tired old centrifugal air cleaner bit.

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quote:
Originally posted by Dusty Bottoms:
I'm just saying prohibited is not the best use of the word. After all, apparently someone got away with running a diffuser muffler. I'm just saying... change that word.

You guys should come up with a more original retort than the tired old centrifugal air cleaner bit.

You mean that's not original? [Big Grin]

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At one time, in the trucking industry, the turbo exhaust housings had the word "muffler" on the casting.
Yes, it was to get around some regulations back then.

J

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quote:
Originally posted by NER88:
So, if we had stayed with the original Mazda SM system this would never have been an issue.
Why did we not require it? and to think they only cost $160...............

Ummm.... I had units that made 5hp more than you could buy. The JD exhaust was born as a result, could be teched. Was NOTHING spec about the MC unit, no spec what so ever for internal muffler baffling.

DDG was the king on that unit, this is not his first trick exhaust system.

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So I should expect to see these at the Jan nationals down here in FL... Got it.

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And just to stir this up a bit more. Where does a Miata need extra ballast? Low and to the rear? Where was this muffler mounted? Talk amongst yourselves. [duck]

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Probably made of lead, also [Smile]

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quote:
Originally posted by Alex Bolanos:
So I should expect to see these at the Jan nationals down here in FL... Got it.

Adrian Newey is already working on mine. See you in January.

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quote:
Originally posted by Blake Clements:
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Bolanos:
So I should expect to see these at the Jan nationals down here in FL... Got it.

Adrian Newey is already working on mine. See you in January.
Since US F1 went under and we have no aero development gurus here in the US we'll make ours out of legal protest paperwork instead... Which one will "fly" farther? [Wink]

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quote:
Originally posted by Blake Clements:
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Bolanos:
So I should expect to see these at the Jan nationals down here in FL... Got it.

Adrian Newey is already working on mine. See you in January.
Adrian may want to wait until he sees new rules clarification [Wink]

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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
quote:
Originally posted by Blake Clements:
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Bolanos:
So I should expect to see these at the Jan nationals down here in FL... Got it.

Adrian Newey is already working on mine. See you in January.
Adrian may want to wait until he sees new rules clarification [Wink]
Great news, you boys know that we have some Floridians with lots of resources that would have no problem with a $1000-$2500 aero muffler arms race...

It would basically be the same as the fuel problem, the order at the front wouldn't change at all and everyone would be spending more money.

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quote:
Originally posted by Dusty Bottoms:
It says "prohibited" which is explicit and it infers that if it is not explicitly outlawed then it's OK. It's a lot different than my wording suggestion.

Which would make sense, except the first rule says that everything is already explicitly prohibited unless explicitly allowed.

Can you put a diffuser on the car? No. The rules don't say that you can, hence the muffler cannot provide one since it is a prohibited function.

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First rule doesn't explicitly prohibit, I'd say it's more implicit...and the problem is that you could argue the muffler rule pretty much opens the door. Where is Andy B. when I need him? He's much better at this than me. I'm not arguing the diffler (TM) is legal, I just made a suggestion to close the possible loophole (or perceived loophole if you wish) by changing one word. Ultimately, you guys can say all you want about the first rule...the fact is that the officials didn't seem to have a problem with this diffler.

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BTW, I don't for a second think that the Diffler's purpose is for downforce...I bet he's getting a big boost in top end speed by hiding the scoop that the rear bumper looks like...filling in that gap has to make a huge difference and I bet there is now a big missing vortex causing big drag on the car and creating less drafting for those behind. DDG probably didn't have some secret ECU or engine thing going on...he had the diffler.

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quote:
Originally posted by Dusty Bottoms:
BTW, I don't for a second think that the Diffler's purpose is for downforce...I bet he's getting a big boost in top end speed by hiding the scoop that the rear bumper looks like...filling in that gap has to make a huge difference and I bet there is now a big missing vortex causing big drag on the car and creating less drafting for those behind. DDG probably didn't have some secret ECU or engine thing going on...he had the diffler.

+1

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In an interesting Runoffs item (parallel to this): In ASedan you are allowed a spec spacer/insulator and two gaskets between the carburetor and the intake manifold. One competitor used a normal size gasket on top of the spacer and another gasket under the spacer that extended from fender to fender and from firewall to radiator support. Basically, a three foot square gasket that isolated the carburetor from the engine compartment heat. The sides were velcro'd to the sides.
It was ruled non-compliant.

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[rolling on floor laughin]
Dusty took it as a 'jedi' mind trick,
Kent goes reverse 'jedi' mind trick,
how bowt the it don't do 'jack' trick,
he's just messin with everyone to deflect attention from what's really going on the other end?
eye on the ball, always keep your eye on the ball.
[Wink]

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quote:
Originally posted by guest driver:
[rolling on floor laughin]
Kent goes reverse 'jedi' mind trick,
eye on the ball, always keep your eye on the ball.
[Wink]

Carlos

There were some of those as well, but this wasnt one of them. The rear bumper cover coming off is worth a second a lap easy. There is a nother guy that has the hardest time keeping his rear bumper attached in the Se for some reason [Big Grin] [thumbsup]

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
jdrago1@aol.com
2006-2007 Mid-West Division
07,09 June Sprints Champion

EAST STREET RACING

Todd Green Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Dusty Bottoms:
First rule doesn't explicitly prohibit, I'd say it's more implicit...and the problem is that you could argue the muffler rule pretty much opens the door.

Technically no, it explicitly allows and thus by definition prohibits, but it is pretty clear about what is prohibited. IMO, the wording "secondary" is a larger can of worms. So if I put a(n overly) heavy muffler on my car can I be protested because it has a secondary function of adding ballast?

joeracerx95 Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Todd Green:
quote:
Originally posted by Dusty Bottoms:
First rule doesn't explicitly prohibit, I'd say it's more implicit...and the problem is that you could argue the muffler rule pretty much opens the door.

Technically no, it explicitly allows and thus by definition prohibits, but it is pretty clear about what is prohibited. IMO, the wording "secondary" is a larger can of worms. So if I put a(n overly) heavy muffler on my car can I be protested because it has a secondary function of adding ballast?
Yes you can, and the protest would be successful. This not just opinion but historical fact. A SM driver a couple of years back made the cage reinforcement plate in the right rear of his car from a ~30lb block of steel. He claimed it was just a reinforcement plate. Tech said it also had an illegal secondary function of providing ballast in an illegal area of the car. He had to remove it.

Of course the tricky bit is defining "overly heavy". RX7's often use a muffler from Mazda Motorsport known as a rock muffler due to the fact that it is filled with lava rocks (the only thing that survives the exhaust temperatures of a rotory motor). The thing weighs about 40lbs and it is mounted in the right rear corner of the car, right where a 1st gen RX7 needs weight. So, is that muffler illegal?

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Never underestimate a man that owns a welder and a Sawzall.

wheel Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Todd,
I cannot find the word "secondary" in the SM part of the GCR. Please, if you are going to put up a "rule" and put quotes around it, list the source. I may have missed it in the rules, so let me know where you got the word "secondary".

The rule that I found, 9.1.8.C, says "Permitted components or modifications must not perform a prohibited function."

KW78
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quote:
Originally posted by Dusty Bottoms:
BTW, I don't for a second think that the Diffler's purpose is for downforce...I bet he's getting a big boost in top end speed by hiding the scoop that the rear bumper looks like.

So now the prohibited function is not a diffuser. The prohibited function is an airflow modifier?

The function of the muffler is to muffle, how do we define that function? If the track limit is 103db, and the car is at 97db, then is it too much muffler??

The Muffler could have 6oz less packing, so now it is ballast?

The muffler could have had a smaller body, so now it is blocking more airflow than the muffle function needs, therefore is doing a prohibited function?

(Btw where is the list of these prohibited functions?)

This is the problem with enforcing the rules as "Well we know cheating when we see it" and all the various synonyms, "If it walks like a duck..." "but the intent is..." etc.

The rule as written:

"4. The factory exhaust system beyond the OEM front down pipe
may be replaced, provided the following are true:
a. The replacement system retains the original configuration
(i.e., single tube design) and the tubing is a maximum of
2.25 inches outside diameter.
b. The pipe may end anywhere after the rear subframe.
Forward of the rear subframe, the pipe must follow the
original path of the OEM exhaust system.
c. No expansion chambers. A single muffler may be added.
d. The system meets all event specific sound requirements.
e. A catalytic converter may be gutted, removed, or replaced
with a catalytic converter replacement pipe. The replacement
pipe must not exceed 17.5 inches in length and have
an outside diameter no greater than 2.375 inches.
f. No portion of the exhaust may be wrapped with any type
of insulating tape, nor shall any portion of the exhaust,
internal or external, be coated with any thermal coatings."


.C .D and .F are the only exhaust system rules/restrictions that apply to the muffler.

Which one did this muffler violate?

(BTW, aren't all mufflers some sort of expansion chamber, that's how they muffle.. And is the aluminized coating on pipes a thermal coating? Do we need rusty pipes and mufflers?)

So if the diffler provided a huge aero benefit, what if the next iteration only provides a little bit of benefit - I mean some positions at the runoffs were down to thousandths of a second?

There are only a few SMAC members and an entire SM membership finding gray areas.

Things to ponder..

Kyle

[ 10-21-2010, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: KW78 ]

John the Impaler Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Is it a "diffler", or a "muffuser" ?

Need to get the name pinned down, so that the 2011 GCR "Appendix F" (Technical Glossary) knows what to call it.

KW78
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I have a question for anyone on the SMAC. Last year, the tech shed at the runoffs saw a miata with thermal wrap from the head pipe back. Perfectly legal, it did not violate the restrictions put on the replacement system, including the 2 1/4" overall diameter, as I understood.

So why did .F appear above in the 2010 rules?

Many of these arguments about faster or slower platforms are put off to "better prepared" or under prepared". Here is an example of being thorough in an economical way, and it was legislated out.

I was just curious the philosophy for the change.

Kyle

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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Kyle
The reason for the clarification( and I feel another coming) was because while the exhaust was legal per the written rule it violated the intent. No where did it say you could wrap your exhaust in our rules, it was only legal because his pipe, wrapped was smaller in diameter than the specified OD.

So now it is clear, you can not wrap the exhaust, regardless of pipe diameter.

Jim

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
jdrago1@aol.com
2006-2007 Mid-West Division
07,09 June Sprints Champion

EAST STREET RACING

 
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