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Author Topic: Pro motors - What HP should I expect?
SWDouglass Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Region: NASA So Cal. & CalClub
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Year : 99
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I have a 99 with a tired motor.

What HP should I expect to get with a pro motor (RE, Sunbelt, Meathead, East street, Ceffalo, etc.)?

Is it typically guaranteed to make a certain hp?

What has been the highest HP?

What has been the lowest HP?

When you buy the pro motor, are the motors hand picked or a randomly assigned?

I assume that the primo motors are held out for the top runners, Is this true?

How fast has the HP typically dropped off? (one Season? two Seasons, 5 Seasons) (assuming that you don't Break it or overrev it.)

In the past I have done the crate motor crap shoot and done the crate with pro head. Now I want to cut to the chase.

It's a big investment in this build so I don't want to go into this blindly nor unintelligently.

--------------------
31st in the nation. If I could keep the car on the track and put on the oil cap I could be in the top 20.

andrew_anderson
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Region: SC region and buccaneer
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My best advice would be to call Bob Thornton. He can set you straight on any of your questions and will be more than happy to take the time to answer them.

--------------------
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Blake Clements Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by SWDouglass:
I have a 99 with a tired motor.

What HP should I expect to get with a pro motor (RE, Sunbelt, Meathead, East street, Ceffalo, etc.)?

Is it typically guaranteed to make a certain hp?

What has been the highest HP?

What has been the lowest HP?

When you buy the pro motor, are the motors hand picked or a randomly assigned?

I assume that the primo motors are held out for the top runners, Is this true?

How fast has the HP typically dropped off? (one Season? two Seasons, 5 Seasons) (assuming that you don't Break it or overrev it.)

In the past I have done the crate motor crap shoot and done the crate with pro head. Now I want to cut to the chase.

It's a big investment in this build so I don't want to go into this blindly nor unintelligently.

You can't just slap a pro motor in and expect it to make the best possible power without making sure all the other items in the car are in good shape too. I don't know anyone who will guarantee a HP figure, but some will do whatever it takes to make the customer happy and give you honest ballpark figures.

99 with all the right bells and whistles should make 123+ on a dynojet.

Hand picked? I doubt it.

--------------------
Blake Clements

PhillipsRacePrep/SP Induction Systems/East Street Racing/MiataCage.com/Carbotech/WBR Graphics

www.blakeclements.com

Chris Fulton
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I bought a pro motor from RE last year, and you definitely need to make sure the rest of your car has all the right stuff. I can tell you that Bob Thorton stands behind his product and will help you with any questions (dumb as mind were/are).

Scott Malbon Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Ditto what Chris says. When Bob did my 94 motor 3 yrs ago I asked for a strong, durable, motor. That's what he gave me. I've not had it on a dyno recently but it still feel strong and can keep up with the pro motors on the straights.

And Bob is always generous with tuning and setup advice.

Scott

Heritage Racing Group
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with a 99....what else (right stuff) do you need besides maybe certain plugs,wires, air filter, oil, and maybe fuel octane (certain octane)... ?????? We are talking about HP only.. all other stuff should just be stock. ????

Greg

smartmx5
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quote:
Originally posted by SWDouglass:
I have a 99 with a tired motor.

What HP should I expect to get with a pro motor (RE, Sunbelt, Meathead, East street, Ceffalo, etc.)?

Is it typically guaranteed to make a certain hp?

What has been the highest HP?

What has been the lowest HP?

When you buy the pro motor, are the motors hand picked or a randomly assigned?

I assume that the primo motors are held out for the top runners, Is this true?

How fast has the HP typically dropped off? (one Season? two Seasons, 5 Seasons) (assuming that you don't Break it or overrev it.)

In the past I have done the crate motor crap shoot and done the crate with pro head. Now I want to cut to the chase.

It's a big investment in this build so I don't want to go into this blindly nor unintelligently.

I appreciate the question. With the spirit of Spec Miata, the low cost that originally was the intent, the question is valid. If I have everything else 'right', and a fairly fast driver on a specific track, wouldn't I have the potential advantage over someone who is a fast driver and can not afford a "PRO" motor? Flame on if need be...still a good question.

--------------------
Spec 100% completed!!!

Rich Verified Driver
Oh, that's where that is.

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500, minimum

--------------------
Rich Wiese

Spec Wrecker Ford

Jonathan Christian Verified Driver
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sean ill sell you the motor out of my car for the price of a pro motor..ill even pull it out for yah [Big Grin]

kevin 22 Verified Driver
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Year : 1991
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I am wondering what "all the right stuff" is.
are we talking intake, plugs, AFM and exhaust.
Or is there something else?

--------------------
Kevin Anderson

Chris Fulton
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I have a 93, so not sure what you can do with the 99. I did a number of different things and learned a ton about others to obtain the max HP. I did change exhaust(springfield dyno - no improvement over the BSI exhaust I had), oil (Joe Gibbs), had AFM adjusted,cleaned fuel injectors, timing. I could have changed the rear end, transmission among others in search of HP, but decided it would never end and learned to be happy with my results. I also learned that the numbers obtained on another dyno might not be duplicated.

Keith in WA Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by smartmx5:
quote:
Originally posted by SWDouglass:

I appreciate the question. With the spirit of Spec Miata, the low cost that originally was the intent, the question is valid. If I have everything else 'right', and a fairly fast driver on a specific track, wouldn't I have the potential advantage over someone who is a fast driver and can not afford a "PRO" motor? Flame on if need be...still a good question.
At first the driver will make a much bigger difference than motor. I get my butt kicked by fast guys and girls with slower motors just as easily as pro motors. A really good driver in a old motor can drive the pants off a so so driver with a fast motor.

I've run with my restrictor plate out and a cold air intake for ITA and set a personal best. Then on the same day I took notes on how the local SM shoes were driving a couple critical corners and put my car back to SM legal. I set significantly faster times with less HP but driving a better line. IMHO, a good suspension setup and better exit speed can make a bigger difference than a few HP.

--------------------
Keith Novak
(Will work for tires)

SWDouglass Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Thanks for the replys so far!

In order to refocus the discussion I want to give more information.

I know that there is still seconds, I am leaving on the track. (everyone has time they are leaving on the track)
Additionally, I'm not looking for the national championship, a regional championship, nor even a regional win. Hell, Jonathan can beat me driving a shopping cart. (and I'm ok with that). Just want to move my position up to the next pack of cars, where I can learn more.

The reoccuring nightmare I have is from NASA nationals last year where I would have a great run out of the corner where I would be catching the car in front of me to just have him pull away 1/4 of the way down the back straight.

At the nationals I was dynoed at 112hp. Being told by the instructor, the dyno guy and our mechanic that I was hopelessly down on power. In 48 hours we installed a brand new crate motor that dynoed in at 111hp. (Lost 1 hp, 24 hours and $2300, Boy am I smart!)

Ironicly, my new '99 build has a 173,000 mile motor that is dynoing out at 111 hp. (wait a minute, this is starting to sound familiar, I know, I know...I should go out and get a new crate motor that may dyno at 110 hp.) Yea, go team!!!

No, no, I am smarter than that. I want an engine that I can at least say has horsepower that is at least competitive (being able to drag race down the straight, assuming that we exit the turn the same way and be able to keep up).

So with that said, I think we can all agree that I need to do something better than a crate motor.

So how have others bought their motors in the past? I cannot believe that others have blindly written a big check to the pro-motor company based off of pure hopes that the motor is the hp they are looking for. A newbee could simply ask for 116 hp and pay the same amount as the experienced driver who asks for 123hp? (I'm missing something)

So far Blake (thanks Blake for your honesty) has been the only one who has presented a number. Is this a topic that is really that sacred.

To help quiet other arguments and focus the discussion:
-I am a large proponent of having the class be purely spec and once they find a way to do it,I will follow happily. Read the history of my previous posts to understand my mindset. So please don't take this discussion in that direction.
-I am a large proponent of instruction, from lead follow to watching videos, to hiring instructors. SO please don't take this discussion in that direction.
-I have a great respect for those who are experienced at suspension setup and can see where fine tuning can lead to faster lap times. So please don't take this discussion in that direction.

I simply am curious to know what others, that have been in my shoes, have asked of their potential motor builder (I assume):

-How much HP should I expect from the motor?

-What other items are needed in order to accomplish said HP? (examples: Titanium Transmission? B&B hubs? (kidding, but you understand the point.)

-What is the cost?

-What is the expected longevity of the motor?

Then questions for those who have run with these motors:

-How much did you pay?

-What hp did you end up with?

-How long did the motor make that hp?

If I am asking questions that only the CIA know, or only comes from kissing the ring of a mobster please advise so I can drop it.

Through my sarcasm and frustration, I do honestly appreciate the help from this forum.

Thanks again!
Sean

--------------------
31st in the nation. If I could keep the car on the track and put on the oil cap I could be in the top 20.

Mark Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Pro motors help, no doubt, but you really need to do everything else necessary to support the motor. This includes a new fuel pump (must), cooling system, flowed injectors, fuel filter, CAS (possible), coils, good/new downpipe and header, exhaust, and temp sensors along with spending the time ($$) on the dyno to make sure all the engine support systems are optimized. All of this adds significantly to the cost of the motor. Don't forget the rest of the drive train either. Bad hubs, dragging brakes, drive shaft, cv joints, will kill the effect of your 5k+ investment in a hurry. If you did the same to a home built motor or decent junk yard motor would you see a significant improvement? You bet. It might even be darn close to the pro motor.

I've run a couple of motor variants and all have lasted 2 seasons or more before a freshening was needed (imagined or otherwise). So far I've only needed a valve job and replacing an HLA or two. Bottom ends seem to be pretty bullet proof when put together with care.

The biggest thing that a pro motor offers to me is confidence that the power package is good enough that it allows you to shift your focus ($$ and time) to dealing with driving and setup issues instead of worrying about the motor. In the end SM is still more about driving and setup than killer motor but SM is racing after all and as a result requires contributions from all areas including car, driver, and preparation. Addressing just one element won't get it done.

Hope this helps.

[ 05-31-2009, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: Mark ]

--------------------
Mark
http://www.ironcanyonmotorsports.com

George Munson Verified Driver
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Sean,

It's not that people don't want to answer your question, it's they really can't. Mark covered a lot of the needed parts to complete the package. That being said you are looking for a number. My 1.6 Race Engineering motor in my car puts out 18.2 HP on Tom Fowlers dyno. I can tell you that several exhausts, AFM sensors, intakes, timing, filters and so on have been tested in over 35 dyno runs with my car. My partners RE 1.8 motor on a 96 car showed 24.2 on a different dyno. The same testing was done on his car. That is everything connected to the motor.

Another factor is all dyno's are different. I have heard some are off as much as 6-9 HP. Another factor is the time of year you do this.

What it boils down to find a good builder that you trust and follow what he tells you to do with the motor he built you. He'll know what works for his package. I have had good luck with Bob at Race Engineering, but I know Jim Drago with East Street Racing builds a mean 99, Rossni motors and Stewart Racing motors are strong as well in our region. Anyone of those are highly respected in our area.

As far as time on a motor I have a hard season so far and my leak down test was great.

Your comment about holding the higher HP's for certain customers. It could be true but really the horsepower numbers for each builder is going to be every close with the only real difference being the cams and slight casting differences between parts. Most builders will let you know if a part is so far out of the spec it shouldn't be used. Bottom line most of the good builders want you happy that way they sell more motors.

I hope this helps,

George Munson

oem steve
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I have to agree with Mark about knowing you have the H/P will eliminate the excuse that you are getting beat with H/P. I have a 91 1.6 that on the dyno put out a whopping 110hp, what I've found is that most of the front runners were getting through the corners faster and would pull away exiting the turns. I've also out run some guys that had more h/p by evidence of me getting a run out of the corner, almost pass them only to have them drive back by. I will be going to a pro motor in the future when the $'s show up. and BTW I finished 3rd at sundays CCPS race memorial day weekend at CMP with the little motor that could. I've found that driving is everything and I still have a lot to learn. But the lack of h/p is teachin me to be smoother and maintain momentum both of which will help me when I do get me a pro motor.

--------------------
email: standrewsexpress@bellsouth.net
visit us at http://www.standrewsexpress.com

Under powered and under driven

Ara Verified Driver Series Champ
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To use a cliche:

You want the truth? You can't handle the truth.

Crate 99 will make 110-115. Pro 99 will make 110-128. How's that for a range? It gets better: ask for a "regional" motor and some builders will give you 130+. You won't pass the runoffs teardown, but you'll pass every car down the straight (except maybe the other "regional" motors). Yaaay....

SERIOUS effort with the motor and car in the right hands "should" get you 123-126. Guaranteed? It should be, but it rarely is. I would ask for a performance guarantee just to see what responses you would get. Chances are you would be asked to pay extra, give the engine builder your car to ensure tuning, etc. Be ready to spend five figures.

It's not pretty.

Time to soapbox: we need an SCCA-enterprise type solution. Single shop, single dyno, etc All key components need to be spec'd etc. The class cannot survive long-term if we don't stabilize the situation. No competitive driver enjoys the game you have to play to guarantee you get the power reliably in this class.

Ara

--------------------
www.alararacing.com

SAE113 Verified Driver
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It would be so nice if the engine rules were closer to IT rules. Go to local machine shop punch out block up to 40 over, new pistons and rings, cut crank if necassary,balance assembly and get the valves done. My last BP build for my IT car cost me just under a $1000 for the long block and another $1000 for gaskets and bolt on stuff.

--------------------
Steven Elicati
'92 Protege ITA#01
'94 Miata ITA#99

Jeremy Pike
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quote:
Originally posted by SWDouglass:

I know that there is still seconds, I am leaving on the track. (everyone has time they are leaving on the track)
Additionally, I'm not looking for the national championship, a regional championship, nor even a regional win. Hell, Jonathan can beat me driving a shopping cart. (and I'm ok with that)
Sean

1. Call the motor builders you are interested in and ask THEM the questions you want answers to. For my 1.6, RE was my choice after that even though Bob is 3 time zones.

2. Not looking to win?? Drive to Win, Tune to Win, RACE TO WIN!!!!!!!!!! and have fun.

Wreckerboy Verified Driver
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Car #: SSM 53 "Lola"
Year : 1990
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In addtion to all the valid points being made here it seems to me there is one serious omission here. Everybody is talking numbers here when they should be talking about area under the curve.

122 peak horsepower doesn't mean squat if it is only available at 5836 RPM. Give me 100 from 4000 to 6800 and it will win every time. You don't drive only at 5836, you drive across a wide range of engine speeds.

I just had a new SSM motor built by Ed York / Meathead Racing. That means that in the WDCR region we voluntarily agree to have the motor tuned and sealed to 95 HP (this is a 1.6). 95 may not sound like much, but mine makes that number across a broad spectrum of power. My "old" 258K mile engine made more power (different dynos, days, magicians, not an apple to apple comparison, but...) it did not make that number or even the 95 number and torque to match across nearly as broad a spectrum of revs.

The new engine (on the same old tires) was a full 2 seconds faster for me at SP this weekend. My lap times are usually consistent (slow, but at least consistently so), so I can say with great confidence that a big part of the reason for the improvement in time was because I had more usefull power everywhere I needed it.

Area under the curve is the question to be asking, methinks.

--------------------
Rob Myles
Hero To The Momentum Impaired

Keith in WA Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Pack Fodder

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Very good point Rob.

In a dead-on 4th gear drag race down a long straight, I've seen my 1.8 slowly pull 2-3 car lengths away from a 1.6, then as the speeds increase the 1.6 slowly catches and put's 2-3 back on me. Two different shaped power curves but the one with the most area under it wins the drag race.

--------------------
Keith Novak
(Will work for tires)

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by SWDouglass:
Thanks for the replys so far!

So far Blake (thanks Blake for your honesty) has been the only one who has presented a number. Is this a topic that is really that sacred.

Thanks again!
Sean

Sean
My car makes 126/117 on pump gas. I have seen numbers as high as 128 and as low as 121, car never changes on track. So I wouldn't get overly concerned with dyno readings. I have some say they are 121 and seem more like 125 and heard many say they make 130 and I have no problem passing them on the straights?
Many good choices out there, from the sound of it, any would do you fine. I dont think from what you have posted, that you won't need the last hp out of the car, just a good solid front running engine. I think that can be had from many that were listed above.

good luck
Jim

--------------------
Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
jdrago1@aol.com
2006-2007 Mid-West Division
07,09 June Sprints Champion

EAST STREET RACING

seege Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Ara:
To use a cliche:

You want the truth? You can't handle the truth.

Crate 99 will make 110-115. Pro 99 will make 110-128. How's that for a range? It gets better: ask for a "regional" motor and some builders will give you 130+. You won't pass the runoffs teardown, but you'll pass every car down the straight (except maybe the other "regional" motors). Yaaay....

SERIOUS effort with the motor and car in the right hands "should" get you 123-126. Guaranteed? It should be, but it rarely is. I would ask for a performance guarantee just to see what responses you would get. Chances are you would be asked to pay extra, give the engine builder your car to ensure tuning, etc. Be ready to spend five figures.

It's not pretty.

Time to soapbox: we need an SCCA-enterprise type solution. Single shop, single dyno, etc All key components need to be spec'd etc. The class cannot survive long-term if we don't stabilize the situation. No competitive driver enjoys the game you have to play to guarantee you get the power reliably in this class.

Ara

[thumbsup]

--------------------
-CJ Johnson

Mike Colangelo Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Wow. This is eye opening, not that I'm surprised. Motor, ECU, drivetrain, hubs, brake calipers, etc.

So I guess the rumors of $25,000 Spec Miatas may be more than just rumors.

oem steve
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dont even get me started on the cryo stuff. [scratchchin]

--------------------
email: standrewsexpress@bellsouth.net
visit us at http://www.standrewsexpress.com

Under powered and under driven

Sean Yepez Verified Driver
Team Keeblerspeed

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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Colangelo:
Wow. This is eye opening, not that I'm surprised. Motor, ECU, drivetrain, hubs, brake calipers, etc.

So I guess the rumors of $25,000 Spec Miatas may be more than just rumors.

I think a few top builders are charging even more than that. [Wink]

--------------------
2008 San Francisco Region SMT Champion

Gatoratty Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Mike...check out the classifieds. $31,500 for a top of the line Drago car.

--------------------
Paul McLester

Ara Verified Driver Series Champ
MX-5 CUP and SM Peddler

Region: SFR
Car #: 11,33
Year : 99,90
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Colangelo:
Wow. This is eye opening, not that I'm surprised. Motor, ECU, drivetrain, hubs, brake calipers, etc.

So I guess the rumors of $25,000 Spec Miatas may be more than just rumors.

We were building $30K cars back in 2004. You can go over $40K with ease.

Used MX-5 Cup car: $30K. Hmmmm. [Wink]

--------------------
www.alararacing.com

Mark Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Temporary thread hijack follows:

20-25k is not at all unreasonable when you are paying someone else to do the work for a tub up build and are using new suspension parts. There are lots of these cars out there. Don't forget the cost of the donor and hard top. It all adds up very quickly even without a 10k+ pro motor.

For example:

3.5k donor (typical local 99 donor cost, maybe save a few $$ with an early model)
1k hard top
1k new subframes, bushings, etc
5k 'pro' motor
1k new a-arms
3k cage
2k halo seat, belts, steering wheel, q/r, misc, etc.
.7k new brake calipers, rotors, pads
.7k hubs, bearings, spindles
1k paint
1.5k suspension kit

20k easy w/no labor and a ton of stuff left off like - radiator, data, radios, exhaust, drive shaft, wheels, dyno time. Save some money with a crate motor - ok, still over 17k. Just for parts.

Now add in the hours of labor appropriate for a top level build and pick your shop rate. Shops can't do charity work. Double what you think it will take to get a more realistic number and do the math.

Hello 30k or more. There you go.

Where's that used cup car again [Smile] ?

--------------------
Mark
http://www.ironcanyonmotorsports.com

SWDouglass Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Region: NASA So Cal. & CalClub
Car #: 27
Year : 99
Posts: 199
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Mark,
That list looks very simular to my credit card bill. It has taken a lot of psycological counceling for me to get over the nightmares that bill has caused me

I really appreciate everyones honesty, candor and guidance.
When I originally asked the question, I expected a range like Ara explained but wasn't ready for all the other caviots that went with it.
Like Mark stated and Drago inferred, I want to take the motor out of the list of worries but not neccesarily looking for a national championship winner.

I am extremely appreciative to everyone who has gratiously reached out to me at the expense of possible trade secrets, competitive advantage or possible criticism from the rest. That is why I like the paddock community almost as much as the racing itself.

The love of Racing as a whole.

Thanks again,
Sean

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31st in the nation. If I could keep the car on the track and put on the oil cap I could be in the top 20.

Mark Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Member

Year : 1990
Posts: 367
Status: Offline
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BTDT Sean. If I can be of any help don't hesitate to pm or email.

Mark

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Mark
http://www.ironcanyonmotorsports.com

ahamos
Member

Region: ODR
Car #: 17
Year : 1994
Posts: 82
Status: Offline
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Don't forget to update your expenses every single time you go to Lowe's for nuts, bolts, washers, etc. That stuff adds up much more quickly than you'd expect.

I've got well over $20K tied up in mine, and I've never even raced it. I just enjoy tinkering with it so much that once I've finished a project, I start thinking about ways I could have done it better. Then I drop $150 on switches, panel-mount circuit-breakers, sheet aluminum, wiring, blah blah blah. Repeat ad nauseum.

oem steve
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Region: South East
Car #: #92
Year : 91
Posts: 189
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I'm not sure what I have in mine, I hid the receipts from my wife and now I cant find them. I think I told her around $500.00

--------------------
email: standrewsexpress@bellsouth.net
visit us at http://www.standrewsexpress.com

Under powered and under driven

Wreckerboy Verified Driver
Member

Region: WDC
Car #: SSM 53 "Lola"
Year : 1990
Posts: 464
Status: Offline
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Mark, that sounds like the cost of my build except for the $250K charge for a garage with a house attached to build it in. [Smile]


EDIT: and don't forget the tow vehicle and trailer... it's a good thing my wife likes racing because if we ever totaled this stuff up it would be really, really ugly.

--------------------
Rob Myles
Hero To The Momentum Impaired

John Wymore
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Region: Oregon
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quote:
We were building $30K cars back in 2004. You can go over $40K with ease.
Sad thing about this is you can buy an older Atlantic car for this kind of money and go 15 seconds a lap quicker!!! [Big Grin]

Ara Verified Driver Series Champ
MX-5 CUP and SM Peddler

Region: SFR
Car #: 11,33
Year : 99,90
Posts: 1528
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quote:
Originally posted by John Wymore:
quote:
We were building $30K cars back in 2004. You can go over $40K with ease.
Sad thing about this is you can buy an older Atlantic car for this kind of money and go 15 seconds a lap quicker!!! [Big Grin]
True. There are LOTS of faster cars for less $ (GT cars come to mind), but the running cost is much higher, especially if you seek to be competitive in it. It's the same song, different verse...

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www.alararacing.com

Lance Snyder Made Donation to Website
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Region: Atlanta
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quote:
Originally posted by Ara:
quote:
Originally posted by John Wymore:
quote:
We were building $30K cars back in 2004. You can go over $40K with ease.
Sad thing about this is you can buy an older Atlantic car for this kind of money and go 15 seconds a lap quicker!!! [Big Grin]
True. There are LOTS of faster cars for less $ (GT cars come to mind), but the running cost is much higher, especially if you seek to be competitive in it. It's the same song, different verse...
And there are much less options for racing. SM(along with IT/SS) can pretty much do whatever race it wants with whatever sanctioning body.

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All this has happened before, and will happen again

Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
MegaModerator

Region: mid south
Car #: 2
Year : 1999
Posts: 4275
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quote:
Originally posted by SAE113:
It would be so nice if the engine rules were closer to IT rules. Go to local machine shop punch out block up to 40 over, new pistons and rings, cut crank if necessary,balance assembly and get the valves done. My last BP build for my IT car cost me just under a $1000 for the long block and another $1000 for gaskets and bolt on stuff.

Steve
Our rules are more restrictive, if we did this the cars would be faster for sure, but the difference in a true pro built motor vs a "local machine shop punch out" would be far greater than what it is now. Very few, and I mean VERY few machine shops have a clue the detail that is required to get the last bit out of these motors. Take the best head you've ever seen that has passed the Runoffs or some type of tear down, bring it to 25 machine shops, have them inspect. 24 or perhaps even 25 will tell you that nothing is done, maybe a better valve job. Yet you ask them to copy or build you a head and you will lose 5 plus Hp the minute you bolt it on. For years that was the case with Sunbelt, they were the ONLY builder getting really good power out of SM engines. Then RE and Karl and others came along and started getting comparable engines out. But not near as easy as most think, take it from some one who has spent10's f thousands trying. We have gotten similiar numbers now, many times better. But the truth is, if the engine passes Runoffs tear down, The top engine builders will all be within 1 or 2 hp, worst case. Thats what it looked like the last few years anyway.
Jim
Jim

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Jim Drago
East Street Auto Salvage
jdrago1@aol.com
2006-2007 Mid-West Division
07,09 June Sprints Champion

EAST STREET RACING

CP Verified Driver
Member

Region: NER
Car #: 7
Year : 1999
Posts: 636
Status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by Wreckerboy:
EDIT: and don't forget the tow vehicle and trailer... it's a good thing my wife likes racing because if we ever totaled this stuff up it would be really, really ugly.

That part cost "us" $20K this winter.

Personally I think the driver is 80% of the equation, setup and tires is another 15%, and the rest is smoke and mirrors (coming from a rookie driver).

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-Cy
Supported by LTD Racing & Speed Shack - New England's Premier Auto Accessory Store
Rt1 AutoMile - Norwood, MA
http://www.speedshackonline.com

Rich Verified Driver
Oh, that's where that is.

Region: STL
Car #: 35
Year : #795 SRF
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It's 95% driver. 1% of a lap at RA is about 1.65 seconds. Give me a cheapo bargain basement car on full-treads and I bet I can get within 8.25 seconds. [Smile] Unfortunately, the last 5% isn't what matters, it's the last 0.1%.

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Rich Wiese

Spec Wrecker Ford

Weekend Warrior Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Racing to Cure ALS (Lou Gehrig's Disease)

Region: WDCR
Car #: 56 "Earl"
Year : 1990, 1999 soon to be SM
Posts: 2947
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quote:
Originally posted by oem steve:
I'm not sure what I have in mine, I hid the receipts from my wife and now I cant find them. I think I told her around $500.00

[thumbsup]

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http://www.olsinvestfinancial.com
http://www.alsinfo.org
http://www.weekendwarriorracing.com

Dan Lipperini Jr
Member

Region: NEPA #25
Year : 1995 Spec Miata & 1990 S2000 powered Miata
Posts: 15
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quote:
Originally posted by SWDouglass:

What HP should I expect to get with a pro motor (RE, Sunbelt, Meathead, East street, Ceffalo, etc.)?


I assume that the primo motors are held out for the top runners, Is this true?


Well, I'll add a bit to this. I do believe that "primo" motors are given to certain top runners. I had purchased a motor for a customers car from a "pro" builder and had nothing but trouble. I got the feeling that I was a small shop and the customer wasn't a front-runner, so I got a sub-standard motor. It was a long and costly story for both me and the customer. All I heard was the "glory" and all of the wins that his motors had w/o issues. LOTS of issues, no HP and $$$$. A total waste of everyone's time.

If you are doing a "pro" built motor, do LOTS of research, but as others have said, it's only part of the equation. We just rec'd a motor from a reputable builder for a newly built car and spent 3 hours on the dyno chasing those last few HP. Alot of time doing the "parts bin" search yielded 3 additional HP. We shall see how it works, but if the dyno #'s mean anything, it should be a good one. We'll see at the Glen and Pocono nationals.

Good Luck with your search,

Dan

--------------------
Dan Lipperini Jr
http://www.Racelabz.com


S2000 powered Miata trackday toy
New 1.8 Spec Miata(for sale)

   

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