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Author Topic: Firewall insulation
Rob Burgoon Verified Driver
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Hey guys,

Is it legal to remove the insulation on the firewall behind the heater, blower, steering column and pedals?

Thanks!
Rob

--------------------
It really makes my week when nobody crashes into me.

Sean Allen Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I know it's a common thing that is done with most builds, but I don't know the actual ruling on it.

Mike C Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Your rule book is your friend. Spend more time with it. I think it misses you.

8. Driver/Passenger Compartment - Trunk


e. Carpets, center consoles, cargo bins, seat belts, floor mat, radio system, headliners, dome lights, grab handles, sun visors and their insulating and attaching materials may be removed.

--------------------
Mike Collins
MEATHEAD Racing
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The MEATHEAD Racing 2010 Calendar is up!!!!
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ALL OPINIONS ON RULES OR SPECIFICATIONS ARE JUST THAT, MY OPINIONS!

Sean Allen Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Mikes advice also works [Wink] . If this is the same Rob I know of, he is an HPDE guy slowly turning his miata into a spec car. He may not have the most current GCR handy because of that. Perhaps even more the reason to get one. Speaking of which, just got the '09 GCR in the mail today.

Rob Burgoon Verified Driver
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Hi Mike,
I have read the relevant sections in the GCR. It doesn't seem clear. Are we calling the firewall insulation an "insulating material" that belongs to the carpets?

Hey Sean,
Not sure if you are thinking of the same Rob. I am indeed an HPDE guy, but this build has not been slow. It's looking like 3 weeks including time to get all my go-fast goodies out. My miata is merlot.

--------------------
It really makes my week when nobody crashes into me.

Mike C Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Well, if you are asking if insulation is an insulating material, I think yes you can remove it. It is common practice for a more through build and that rule is intended to allow you to do that.

--------------------
Mike Collins
MEATHEAD Racing
http://www.SHEETZ.com
The MEATHEAD Racing 2010 Calendar is up!!!!
www.MEATHEADRacing.com
SMAC Member
WDCR-SCCA SM Drivers Rep.
ALL OPINIONS ON RULES OR SPECIFICATIONS ARE JUST THAT, MY OPINIONS!

Bill Etherington
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quote:
Originally posted by Sean Allen:
Mikes advice also works [Wink] . If this is the same Rob I know of, he is an HPDE guy slowly turning his miata into a spec car. He may not have the most current GCR handy because of that. Perhaps even more the reason to get one. Speaking of which, just got the '09 GCR in the mail today.

I too got my GCR in the mail yesterday. Yes, the GCR is your friend and is available online at the SCCA website at: http://www.scca.org/contentpage.aspx?content=44

--------------------
Bill Etherington
NNJR Tech

NV Racer Verified Driver
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Does anyone actually unwrap their GCR? Mine are all in the shrink wrap still. I have pdf files of all the GCR's in a folder on my PC. Much easier to use the search function to find relevant info.

Dennis

Rob Burgoon Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike C:
Well, if you are asking if insulation is an insulating material, I think yes you can remove it. It is common practice for a more through build and that rule is intended to allow you to do that.

The rule reads "X,Y,and Z and THEIR insulating and attaching materials"

Since it is possessive, I read that to mean the insulation needs to belong to X,Y, or Z, not just any old insulation that happens to be in the passenger compartment.

So I think the question here is "does the firewall insulation belong to the carpet in the same way as the fuzzy stuff attached to the back of the carpet?"

Am I misunderstanding something here?

--------------------
It really makes my week when nobody crashes into me.

Mike C Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Leave it in your car.

--------------------
Mike Collins
MEATHEAD Racing
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The MEATHEAD Racing 2010 Calendar is up!!!!
www.MEATHEADRacing.com
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WDCR-SCCA SM Drivers Rep.
ALL OPINIONS ON RULES OR SPECIFICATIONS ARE JUST THAT, MY OPINIONS!

Eric Barbaric Verified Driver
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Ha! [rolling on floor laughin]

Don't over analyze it. Just rip it or keep it...whichever will help you sleep better.

Probably not going to run at the front anyway, so don't sweat the small stuff.

Mike Tesch Made Donation to Website
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Rob - you have a good and valid point.

Mike - if you would take time to understand what he is saying and read the rules, you might give him more than sarcasm. The rule you posted says:

8. Driver/Passenger Compartment - Trunk


e. Carpets, center consoles, cargo bins, seat belts, floor mat, radio system, headliners, dome lights, grab handles, sun visors and their insulating and attaching materials may be removed.

Now... The firewall insulation does not insulate and is not used to attach any of the items mentioned. It is not a carpet, or related to the floor mat. Therefore, if it doesn't say you can, you can't.

Technically, I think according to the rule Mike quoted, I would say removing it is illegal.

Realistically, I think that anyone that protests this should be taken out and [censored] [censored] [censored]

--------------------
"I've got 5 kids... here there are hundreds"

Mike Tesch
Go Time Racing LLC

pat slattery Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Anal Retentive. LOL

Pat

--------------------
keeping the faith for the 1.6

Arrow Karts

Mike C Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Mike, pull out your factory service manual and show me the insulation.

The only remote reference is in S-62 for a '93. It shows how you first have to take the dash out to get the carpet out.

Go figure.

--------------------
Mike Collins
MEATHEAD Racing
http://www.SHEETZ.com
The MEATHEAD Racing 2010 Calendar is up!!!!
www.MEATHEADRacing.com
SMAC Member
WDCR-SCCA SM Drivers Rep.
ALL OPINIONS ON RULES OR SPECIFICATIONS ARE JUST THAT, MY OPINIONS!

ChrisA
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Tesch:

Now... The firewall insulation does not insulate and is not used to attach any of the items mentioned. It is not a carpet, or related to the floor mat. Therefore, if it doesn't say you can, you can't.

I just gutted my '99 in prep for the roll cage install, and the carpet was secured to the firewall insulation with velcro. To me velcro is an attachment point and thus makes the firewall insulation a continuation of the carpet. Besides, if it couldn't be removed someone would have protested it by now.

--------------------
Chris

"Nothing can be simple. Everything's got to be a pain in the ass." - C. Adams

Mike Tesch Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike C:
Mike, pull out your factory service manual and show me the insulation.

The only remote reference is in S-62 for a '93. It shows how you first have to take the dash out to get the carpet out.

Go figure.

Go figure what? What does that have to do with the topic. So it says you have to take the dash out to remove carpeting. Does it say you have to remove the firewall insulation with the carpet? Not that I can find. When replacing the carpeting, does the manual also instruct to replace the firewall insulation too? I'm still searching for that one.

The point is simple. If it doesn't say you can... you know the rest. It absolutely does not say you can. The firewall insulation has absolutely nothing to do with any of the items listed in the rule you quoted.

With regards to Chris's post on his 99, I would say he is right because it is 'attached' to the carpet, regardless of method, at the factory.

This might not have been protested in SM before, but having spent 6 years running Showroom Stock, I can assure you it's been protested several times. There are way more weenies there!

This issue of removing firewall insulation should be filed under 'who cares'. The problem I have is there are many of us who sit and nit pick at all these rules, and make a big deal out of something that shouldn't be. Then there are the people that are castrated [Eek!] for pushing the rules to the very edge.

All Rob was asking was for clarification for the rules. All he was getting was

"Your rule book is your friend. Spend more time with it. I think it misses you." and...

"Leave it in your car."

You said "It is common practice for a more through build and that rule is intended to allow you to do that." First show me how this rule says anything about firewall insulation. And more importantly, just because it is a common practice, does that make it OK? I think the rule needs to be clarified to include removal of this.

--------------------
"I've got 5 kids... here there are hundreds"

Mike Tesch
Go Time Racing LLC

Sean Allen Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I'll tell you what Mike, you can keep it on the car if you like [Wink] .

Mike C Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Mike, the rule is designed to allow you to remove the carpet and the insulation. If you want the rule clarified send a letter to the CRB.

The FSM does not show the insulation as a separate part. It comes out with the carpet.

I would happy to help get the rule clarified if that is what you want, but write a letter. Specmiata.com is a discussion forum, not a sanctioning body or rule book.

My signature says it all:

ALL OPINIONS ON RULES OR SPECIFICATIONS ARE JUST THAT, MY OPINIONS!

--------------------
Mike Collins
MEATHEAD Racing
http://www.SHEETZ.com
The MEATHEAD Racing 2010 Calendar is up!!!!
www.MEATHEADRacing.com
SMAC Member
WDCR-SCCA SM Drivers Rep.
ALL OPINIONS ON RULES OR SPECIFICATIONS ARE JUST THAT, MY OPINIONS!

Mike Tesch Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Sean Allen:
I'll tell you what Mike, you can keep it on the car if you like [Wink] .

Nice... more sarcasm.

Here's my point and then I give up. Here we have a member, who has only posted 5 times on the forums, asking a legitimate question. He tried three separate times on this topic. Instead of getting his actual question answered, he gets the same old sarcasm from the usual people. Keep up the good work.

(my turn for a little sarcasm) ... I had my youngest son who is in fifth grade, e-mail the rule to his teacher. Ever heard of the show on TV called "are you smarter than a fifth grader?" You'd get this one wrong.


If you would like to discuss the wording of the rule and its meaning, I would be happy to. I sincerely believe that it is not written correctly. If not, that's fine too, I tried.

Happy New Year to all. You too Mike. Remember, we're all here for the good of the sport. I do appreciate all that specmiata.com does for the Spec Miata community. While we don't always agree, we're all on the same team.

Now back to the football game.

--------------------
"I've got 5 kids... here there are hundreds"

Mike Tesch
Go Time Racing LLC

David Dewhurst
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***8. Driver/Passenger Compartment - Trunk

e. Carpets, center consoles, cargo bins, seat belts, floor mat, radio system, headliners, dome lights, grab handles, sun visors and their insulating and attaching materials may be removed.***

When the Mazdamotorsports catlog is searched for catalog item names here is what is found for a 1990 Miata with reference to the carpet/insulation, "mat, floor part #NAD1-68-671" & the insulation item behind the instrument pannel "insulator, dash board NA01-68-631."

Will someone please identify the rule that allows removal of the "insulator, dash board NA01-68-631 ?" [Smile]

--------------------
Have Fun [Wink]

David Dewhurst
CenDiv
Milwaukee Region
Spec Miata #14

Pat Newton Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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This thread is the new gold standard for PMS.

--------------------
Crew Chief, 3D Racing #64, aka Team Scrappy 2.0
3rd place E2, 2009 25 Hours of Thunderhill

Crew Chief, EGR/Miller Motorsports #64, aka Team Scrappy
E2 Champions, 2008 25 Hours of Thunderhill

ChrisA
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Sheez, what would be easier to do? Require the many drivers that have removed and trashed the firewall insulation to buy new stuff and install it or allow those that have not removed it to do so, if they wish?

--------------------
Chris

"Nothing can be simple. Everything's got to be a pain in the ass." - C. Adams

ChrisA
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quote:
Originally posted by Pat Newton:
This thread is the new gold standard for PMS.

[yep] [rolling on floor laughin] [rolling on floor laughin] [rolling on floor laughin]

--------------------
Chris

"Nothing can be simple. Everything's got to be a pain in the ass." - C. Adams

David Dewhurst
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***Sheez, what would be easier to do? Require the many drivers that have removed and trashed the firewall insulation to buy new stuff and install it or allow those that have not removed it to do so, if they wish?***

Naw, use the ol SCCA default which would be to make removing the "insulator, dash board NA01-68-631" legal making those who shun the rules legal. Or continue using the ol [Wink] [Wink] [Wink]

Someone had some balls & did away with the aluminum pressure plate/clutch disc because the rules were sliding & the class needs more of the same with the other items some of you call weenie items. If you want to work outside the SM rules there are other ponds to swim in. All said with a [Smile]

--------------------
Have Fun [Wink]

David Dewhurst
CenDiv
Milwaukee Region
Spec Miata #14

Casey Z Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Pat Newton:
This thread is the new gold standard for PMS.

They call it the silly season for a reason. Everyone gets amped up this time of year because no one is racing... [Frown]

--------------------
----------------
Z Brothers Racing / East Street Auto

Casey Z - 1.6 Kettle
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Tom Sager Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Casey Z:
quote:
Originally posted by Pat Newton:
This thread is the new gold standard for PMS.

They call it the silly season for a reason. Everyone gets amped up this time of year because no one is racing... [Frown]
As long as Joel Lipperini stays out of Spec Miata, we're safe removing the insulation.

Mike C Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Please reference the latest Fastrack Issue Errors and Omissions update.

--------------------
Mike Collins
MEATHEAD Racing
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The MEATHEAD Racing 2010 Calendar is up!!!!
www.MEATHEADRacing.com
SMAC Member
WDCR-SCCA SM Drivers Rep.
ALL OPINIONS ON RULES OR SPECIFICATIONS ARE JUST THAT, MY OPINIONS!

Rob Burgoon Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike C:
Please reference the latest Fastrack Issue Errors and Omissions update.

Awesome, thanks!

--------------------
It really makes my week when nobody crashes into me.

JD Morris Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike C:
Please reference the latest Fastrack Issue Errors and Omissions update.

I looked but didn't see anything. To what are you referring?

JD

Mike C Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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http://www.scca.com/documents/Fastrack/09/02/09-fastrack-feb.pdf

"Firewall insulation" was specifically added to clarify a rule that we believed already encompassed the removal of it.

--------------------
Mike Collins
MEATHEAD Racing
http://www.SHEETZ.com
The MEATHEAD Racing 2010 Calendar is up!!!!
www.MEATHEADRacing.com
SMAC Member
WDCR-SCCA SM Drivers Rep.
ALL OPINIONS ON RULES OR SPECIFICATIONS ARE JUST THAT, MY OPINIONS!

JD Morris Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Oops. The "club racing" link to the Fasttrack document is missing most of the TSB pages... I just needed to open the whole thing. Thanks!

JD

David Dewhurst
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***Naw, use the ol SCCA default which would be to make removing the "insulator, dash board NA01-68-631" legal making those who shun the rules legal.***

[group hug]

--------------------
Have Fun [Wink]

David Dewhurst
CenDiv
Milwaukee Region
Spec Miata #14

   

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