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Author Topic: JULY SPRINTS WGI 7/23,24,25
Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Future Never Has Been

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quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt:
I really think this needs to be a joint effort between the stewards and the drivers. When a crash like this happens, the drivers involved (if possible) should be called in front of the stewards. A proactive review of the incident should happen.

[thumbsup]

... and witnesses.... and video.

--------------------
Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

GROOTS
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BOB Glad to here your OK.

--------------------
JEFF GRUTER
SM #48
EXCELL MOTORSPORTS
PARAMOUNT TOOL & EQUIPTMENT http://www.ptetool.com/

edzeb
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quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt:
I really think this needs to be a joint effort between the stewards and the drivers. When a crash like this happens, the drivers involved (if possible) should be called in front of the stewards. A proactive review of the incident should happen.

[thumbsup]

... and witnesses.... and video.

And who does the 'calling'?

Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Future Never Has Been

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quote:
Originally posted by edzeb:
quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt:
I really think this needs to be a joint effort between the stewards and the drivers. When a crash like this happens, the drivers involved (if possible) should be called in front of the stewards. A proactive review of the incident should happen.

[thumbsup]

... and witnesses.... and video.

And who does the 'calling'?
Ed, it's called a PA or Public Address system. Most tracks have them. Also, you can usually find drivers hanging out near the cars whose numbers correspond to them on the grid sheet.

It works something like this, "Any driver having information or video of the incident between SM cars in Turn 3, please see the Stewards in the control tower." Collect the information, determine which questions remain unanswered, conduct Driver's Reviews under GCR 2.4 and act upon the facts discovered. Ideally, this would mean telling the 'guilty' driver what he/she did wrong and telling the driver who possibly could have avoided the incident how to avoid them in the future. Educate more than punish. Publish the results of the review for all to see and learn from.

That is all it will take.

--------------------
Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

edzeb
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Kent,

Obviously you missed my point (much like a missed apex, increasing the possibility of damage later to you and others).

Are you suggesting this request of a meeting be done by CSA? RFA? CS only? SOMs involved?
What if the offending driver does not show up at your request? Then what? Use the 'PA' again?

It seems people are unwilling to use the system that is in place (but requires action by drivers to file paper), and yet are wanting the system to do all of the work for them (CS, SOMs, you be the bad guys please because Johnny Dopey Driver will 'listen' to you).

I find it interesting, yet sad and predictable, that in one case there is a cry that the officials have gone to far in punishing (see the 'Free....' thread), and yet others want to officials to take action immediately and thoroughly.

Can't have it both ways folks. Either create a peer-level pressure group, or use the GCR and file paper.

disquek Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Please please please stop comparing what happened to Joel L to an on-track incident like this.

Joel's deal was a non-racing related pissing contest that resulted in a lost license.

This bad driving that resulted in hospitalization.

They are NOT comparable. Stop it.

-Kyle

d mathias Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Edzeb, My first season (2002) of racing I had m-2-m contact. After the race a worker at the base of the flagstand pointed me and the other party involve to the side of the pitlane, where the CS was waiting to personally introduce himself to us.

Couple years later at Charlotte (2005) my wife had m-2-m and after the race a loud voice came from the sky requesting that SM #88 and SM #whatever go see the CS in his trailer.

My point is the SCCA use to deal with these situations, the last few years not so much.

-Denny

edzeb
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Denny,

I am not saying to only throw paper, or only self police, or only dance in the paddock in circles. What I am saying is that instead of complaining on a forum, get organized, get involved, form a group and get the message to the CS of an event, or even organize and demand that the Steward of SMs position be returned to action.
In my various positions in SCCA I see many who talk, and few who do. This is a club. Things only advance if you get involved. We can disagree as individuals, that IS okay. As an example, Jim Thill and I have disagreed on many things(!) in the past. But I have the upmost respect for Jim because of all of the work he has done in SSM. He not only talks, he takes action and does things.
If this group wants more policing from the stewards, ask for it....in fact, demand it.

Andy Bettencourt Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by disquek:
Please please please stop comparing what happened to Joel L to an on-track incident like this.

Joel's deal was a non-racing related pissing contest that resulted in a lost license.

This bad driving that resulted in hospitalization.

They are NOT comparable. Stop it.

-Kyle

+1

The Race Chair can use his/her power to gather up drivers and FACILITATE change or action.

The CS has almost unlimted leeway in making the event run smoothly and safely. If they can bounce a driver for bad driving, they can certainly ask members of 'incidents' to gather for peer review and suggest action.

--------------------
Andy Bettencourt
Flatout Motorsports
www.flatout-motorsports.com

Andy Bettencourt Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by edzeb:
Denny,

I am not saying to only throw paper, or only self police, or only dance in the paddock in circles. What I am saying is that instead of complaining on a forum, get organized, get involved, form a group and get the message to the CS of an event, or even organize and demand that the Steward of SMs position be returned to action.

I like this a lot Ed. Maybe we are reading some posts wrong but some seem to be saying it's all on the drivers to protest each other to get something done...

--------------------
Andy Bettencourt
Flatout Motorsports
www.flatout-motorsports.com

T.J. Kearney Verified Driver
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--------------------
Tom Kearney
SSM #85
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

GridWench
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quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt:

The Race Chair can use his/her power to gather up drivers and FACILITATE change or action.


Sorry, Andy, but Race Chairs don't have the power/right/responsibility to do anything like that. Should a driver wish someone to facilitate some sort of action, he/she should access the Driver Advisor/Advocate, who is usually a Steward.

--------------------
Cheryl Ragalevsky
Glen Region, SCCA
Activities Director
Membership Chair
Chair, Last Chance

John the Impaler Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
Ed, it's called a PA or Public Address system. Most tracks have them. Also, you can usually find drivers hanging out near the cars whose numbers correspond to them on the grid sheet.

It works something like this, "Any driver having information or video of the incident between SM cars in Turn 3, please see the Stewards in the control tower." Collect the information, determine which questions remain unanswered, conduct Driver's Reviews under GCR 2.4 and act upon the facts discovered.

That's freakin PERFECT !

Saturday afternoon...wander down to the Parish of St. Offcamber...visit the confessional and confess your sins to Father Stewardini....

 -

"Bless me, Father, for I have sinned....I was a complete asshat on the start today, and I used an oversized restrictor plate, and I had impure thoughts about #99's wife, who is hot-hot-hot in those short-shorts."

...and while you're at it, spread the blame around, too !!! "#55 was an asshat too...but I don't want to accuse anybody of anything...I just want to get it off my chest, because I have no spine and I certainly don't want to cause anybody trouble." Just put out a general call...maybe somebody will wander by...waiting....waiting...[crickets]....

Jeezus H. Restrictor Plate !!!! We already have a process for this !!! It's call PROTEST. If somebody does something stupid, and you are personally involved OR you are just personally offended, FILE A PROTEST. Don't mope around and bitch that nobody is doing anything, when YOU ,Mr. Moper, are one of the prime "notdoinganythingers".

This message brought to you by Impaler Media, and does not imply an endorsement of any particular faith or creed...although the Impaler hissef is, at last report, a "Cargo Cultist"

 -

( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult )

Andy Bettencourt Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by GridWench:
quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt:

The Race Chair can use his/her power to gather up drivers and FACILITATE change or action.


Sorry, Andy, but Race Chairs don't have the power/right/responsibility to do anything like that. Should a driver wish someone to facilitate some sort of action, he/she should access the Driver Advisor/Advocate, who is usually a Steward.
"The Chief Steward may submit to the SOM a Request for Action (RFA) describing a suspected breach of the GCR or supplemental regulations, asking the SOM to investigate and determine whether there was a breach, and what, if any, penalties to impose."

No?

Heck, the CS can order the tear down of a car.

The CS may also prohibit a driver from running that they consider dangerous (page 38). They have to wait until another driver protests before they can make that 'consideration' ?? Or can they do so proactively when the Chairman of the SOM provides them all the details on any incidents (page 36)?

--------------------
Andy Bettencourt
Flatout Motorsports
www.flatout-motorsports.com

Andy Bettencourt Verified Driver
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Look, nobody is saying that the event officials should do this by themselves. Whay *I* am saying is that it would be nice once in a while if the PTB took the logs and proactively gathered and talked with drivers who have had major contact.

Let's help each other shape the culture so NONE of us has to tolerate this stuff.

--------------------
Andy Bettencourt
Flatout Motorsports
www.flatout-motorsports.com

Lance Snyder Made Donation to Website
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Race Chairs do NOT equal chief stewards. They do not even remotely do the same job on a race weekend.

So many folks who want change have no damned clue how a race weekend happens, what group handles what and what it's like to be in that position. So many drivers want XXXX to do this, XXXX to do that, XXXX should be done better, XXXX official stamped my meal card no desert, etc etc etc. Drivers bitch about stewards, how about drivers start down the path of being a steward. It's a long process but if racing is sooooooo expensive a few weekends a year becoming a steward will do wonders for your finances. Ever wonder why those registration peeps want your crap ready when you have a couple of hundred peeps, well come find out, spend a couple of weekends learning the process. You want registration opened early how about asking the region staff, "how can i help open up registration earlier/night prior?" Ever wonder why these pesky flaggers ask you silly questions after a hard hit, how about come and find out several times a year? The driver:worker ratio is increasing at a significant rate. The demands of driver go up while the amount that get involves seems to be dropping, that is something many of you can change.

--------------------
All this has happened before, and will happen again

Andy Bettencourt Verified Driver
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Right, Cheryl said Steward so I went looking for what the CS could do.

--------------------
Andy Bettencourt
Flatout Motorsports
www.flatout-motorsports.com

Andy Bettencourt Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Lance Snyder:


So many drivers want XXXX to do this, XXXX to do that, XXXX should be done better, XXXX official stamped my meal card no desert, etc etc etc. Drivers bitch about stewards, how about drivers start down the path of being a steward.

No offense but don't try and diminish a request from drivers for some help that some PTB may be able to facilitate.

Why don't more Stewards serve Nationally on committies like the ITAC, SMAC or STAC? Oh wait, I did that. The point is that we all volunteer in the way we can. What I am asking for here is some assistance in proactively helping cleaning up dangerous driving in one of the largest classes we have. If you CAN'T do it, tell us why. If you aren't WILLING to do it, well that is a different story.

This isn't very hard. I just think there is some intermediate position where drivers and stewards can work together to better a situation that is out of control. If that isn't the case, something is wrong. Maybe with BOTH sides.

--------------------
Andy Bettencourt
Flatout Motorsports
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edzeb
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For those complaining...

Want action on this subject in this division? Have any of you contacted the NeDiv Executive Steward? Do you even know who the NeDiv Executive Steward is? If you are have been racing for while you may remember him from GT-1. If you have been running only for a short time, then you might remember him in his former capacity.....recently......had something to do with MIATAS....
Possibly someone with concerns on this issue could contact him as ask him for advice on how to get the 'powers that be' to police SM at a higher level.......

John Nesbitt
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quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt:
... What I am asking for here is some assistance in proactively helping cleaning up dangerous driving in one of the largest classes we have. If you CAN'T do it, tell us why. If you aren't WILLING to do it, well that is a different story.

This isn't very hard. I just think there is some intermediate position where drivers and stewards can work together to better a situation that is out of control. If that isn't the case, something is wrong. Maybe with BOTH sides.

There is common ground where the drivers and stewards can work proactively on this.

As some of you are aware, the 2009 MARRS season featured major issues in SM and SSM. At the end of the season, the S/SM drivers community approached the stewards and asked for help.

This year, we have dedicated stewards for the two race groups, with the objective being to have one set of eyes on each group all year, and to follow up on all incidents, with escalating consequences for offenders.

I am one of these stewards, so I shall let others comment on how well this is working (or not).

However, this is an example of how the drivers and stewards can work together to try to get in front of a problem.

Andy Bettencourt Verified Driver
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Thank you John.

--------------------
Andy Bettencourt
Flatout Motorsports
www.flatout-motorsports.com

disquek Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Let me ask this question:

Why are the drivers (you) looking for the stewards to handle this?

Why wouldn't you want to handle this yourselves?

Is it that you don't want to be the heavy by throwing paper?

My experience is that when you ask someone else to do something for you that is really important to you they don't do it exactly how you'd wanted it.

If I were in your shoes (SM racers) - and I was - I'd decide that I care about doing something about contact and I would promise myself that I'd do the right thing and throw paper EVERY time. If for no other purpose than to show that I care.

Imagine (put on my John Lennon hat) if all the people threw paper every time ... there would be no contact ....

-Kyle

Vick Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by edzeb:


Have any of you contacted the NeDiv Executive Steward?

Ed:

Thanks for giving us some direction on this. I just sent a quick email to the NeDiv Executive Steward.

For anyone else interested, contact info can be found here:

http://www.nescca.org/nescca_main/contacts.html

--------------------
http://www.volko.com

Andy Bettencourt Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by disquek:
Let me ask this question:

Why are the drivers (you) looking for the stewards to handle this?

Why wouldn't you want to handle this yourselves?

Is it that you don't want to be the heavy by throwing paper?

My experience is that when you ask someone else to do something for you that is really important to you they don't do it exactly how you'd wanted it.

If I were in your shoes (SM racers) - and I was - I'd decide that I care about doing something about contact and I would promise myself that I'd do the right thing and throw paper EVERY time. If for no other purpose than to show that I care.

Imagine (put on my John Lennon hat) if all the people threw paper every time ... there would be no contact ....

-Kyle

There is a difference in having someone else handle an issue with a specific driver and trying to implement a program that tries to change the 'culture' of the class.

If I had an issue with a sigle driver, I would protest accordingly. But what the drivers I talk with are frustrated with is a general lack of respect, caution, etc throughout 75% of the field. If you knew that anytime you were involved in anything more than incidental contact, you were going to be called in front of the Stewards for a review of the incident (and it actually happened), then I think we are on our way to creating a better grid for all. Some may disagree, but I see it as a positive.

--------------------
Andy Bettencourt
Flatout Motorsports
www.flatout-motorsports.com

John Nesbitt
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quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt:
quote:
Originally posted by disquek:
Let me ask this question:

Why are the drivers (you) looking for the stewards to handle this?

Why wouldn't you want to handle this yourselves?

Is it that you don't want to be the heavy by throwing paper?

My experience is that when you ask someone else to do something for you that is really important to you they don't do it exactly how you'd wanted it.

If I were in your shoes (SM racers) - and I was - I'd decide that I care about doing something about contact and I would promise myself that I'd do the right thing and throw paper EVERY time. If for no other purpose than to show that I care.

Imagine (put on my John Lennon hat) if all the people threw paper every time ... there would be no contact ....

-Kyle

There is a difference in having someone else handle an issue with a specific driver and trying to implement a program that tries to change the 'culture' of the class.

If I had an issue with a sigle driver, I would protest accordingly. But what the drivers I talk with are frustrated with is a general lack of respect, caution, etc throughout 75% of the field. If you knew that anytime you were involved in anything more than incidental contact, you were going to be called in front of the Stewards for a review of the incident (and it actually happened), then I think we are on our way to creating a better grid for all. Some may disagree, but I see it as a positive.

It's not an either/or situation. The drivers and stewards can work together to solve problems.

<soapbox>

The GCR makes it clear that there is a shared responsibility among stewards and drivers for enforcing the rules.

The operating steward is supposed to investigate reports of contact (in the present example), and act accordingly.

Drivers are expected to protest when they are the victim of a rule violation.

Between the two, you have some hope of establishing a better culture.

</soapbox>

Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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John,

The GCR doesn't support your view of a shared responsibility for enforcing the rules.

Drivers have the responsibility for following the rules. No where does the GCR state that a driver has the responsibility to report other drivers breaking the rules.

The GCR states that drivers may protest if they believe violations of the GCR have occurred. Not that they 'shall' or 'are required to'.

On the other hand, the GCR specifically charges the Stewards (particularly the Chair of the Stewards of the Meet) with fully detailing any incidents that occur. One cannot fully detail incidents that one has not fully investigated.

Likewise, the Chief Steward is charged with 'executing a program of racing by controlling drivers...' and the Safety Steward is responsible for investigating any accidents.

The GCR states that the Chief Steward may file a request for action against any driver for suspected breach of the GCR. It then becomes the SOM's duty to investigate and rule. Any time sheetmetal has been bent in a SM race, a violation of the GCR has probably occurred and the SOM should investigate.

Finally, the Executive Steward has the power under the GCR to review the behavior of any driver (or official) at any time. I am thankful that the Stewards in the Southwest Division have begun to exercise this power quite liberally in the interest of the good of the sport and safety of the drivers. In the SowDiv, if you have a reputation for lots of contact or always driving a little bit over your head, you can expect a call from the Executive Steward.

Abrogating the responsibilities to the drivers to adequately control the event and enforce the rules is negligent, perhaps even grossly negligent.

--------------------
Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

John Nesbitt
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quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
John,

The GCR doesn't support your view of a shared responsibility for enforcing the rules.

...

Abrogating the responsibilities to the drivers to adequately control the event and enforce the rules is negligent, perhaps even grossly negligent.

With respect, not so.

Read GCR 8.1.5:

Any entrant, driver, crew, organizer, or official participating in an event
may protest any decision, act, or omission of another entrant, driver,
crew, organizer, official, or any other person connected with that event
whose actions the protestor believes to be in error or which violate the
GCR, the Supplemental Regulations, or any condition involving SCCA’s
sanction of the event.


By no means do I suggest that the stewards should sub-contract their rules enforcement responsibility to the drivers/entrants.

I do suggest that the drivers/entrants have their own role to play in this process.

Several posters advocate a culture change. It will be difficult to achieve this unless both stewards and drivers do their part.

Adroitracer Verified Driver
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In an effort to self-police, could we impound all after a race. The top XXXX amount of cars would be checked like they always would. If there was contact the people involved would have to describe each of their sides as to why it happened, but all the other drivers would be around. Videos can be pulled with all the vehicles sitting in impound if necessary and then decisions can be made. It would be nice if a steward was present during the meeting.

No contact, all released immediately. Otherwise, we would wait it out going through each incident. Although tedious it would quickly show those often involved in an incident and decisions as a group as to whether something should be protested/tolerated or not.

If something is chalked up to a 'racing incident' then that is up to the group. If it is something that should have been avoided, then a protest should ensue. Because everyone hasn't left it is easier to meet the time frame to submit the protest, and all those that might have been involved or have evidence are right there for support.

The only part that makes this tough in NE region is there are many that run multiple run groups that really might not be able to stay for such a meeting. Considering how much contact has been happening it might be a long meeting.....

--------------------
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Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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John,

It is your position that several cars can be balled up at the start of a race, sending one participant to the medical center and the Stewards need only examine the incident if one of the drivers protests one of the other drivers?

--------------------
Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

John Nesbitt
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quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
John,

It is your position that several cars can be balled up at the start of a race, sending one participant to the medical center and the Stewards need only examine the incident if one of the drivers protests one of the other drivers?

Not at all.

My position is that, if a corner station reports contact, for example, the operating steward should investigate it, and take action according to the circumstances.

However, this isn't F1 or NASCAR. We don't have every inch of the track under multiple cameras and in-car video streamed live. So not every incident is reported by a corner station.

In the case where the incident is not observed, the affected driver has the right to protest. The driver can protest even if the steward does something. Or does nothing (" .. any decision, act, or omission ..").

I can't comment on any specific incident. I can observe that this is an imperfect world, including the stewards organization. However, the stewards program is making a real effort to improve.

If you have a concern about a specific piece of stewarding, you should discuss it with the event Chief Steward. If you are dissatisfied with his/her response, discuss it with the Division's Executive Steward.

As I mentioned, I believe that the stewards program is making a real effort raise its performance. However, unless the leadership of the program hears about problems, it cannot address them.

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John,

I appreciate that very much. I have personally seen both the decline in stewardship and the recent large improvements here in the SowDiv.

I think you and I are on the same page when it comes to the need for the driver to 'throw paper' on minor incidents that affect the outcome of the race. The difference is that I believe that any incident that is big enough to result in the inability of the car to continue (which requires an "Incident Report" per the Steward's Manual) should result in a review of the cause of the incident and the Executive Steward has that power under the GCR. Increasingly in the SowDiv, he is using it, to the joy of all racers!

Two years ago or so, I totaled a car when two rookies and a driver I didn't know got together in T1L1. I was the next driver into the melee, a nearly innocent victim and the guy I hit is lucky to be alive and unhurt. The stewards had zero curiosity into what happened. I wasn't entirely certain either, but I wanted to find out let the rookies who suffered only minor sheetmetal damage know what they did wrong (potentially).

I was give the choice of throwing paper on one of the three when it was likely that all three contributed to the incident. Indeed, that was the ruling of the SOM. No one person was at fault, therefore no action was taken. The 3 drivers at fault left the track that day thinking their actions were acceptable. One of those drivers still has lots and lots of contact. A Driver's Review is in the works for him.

Here is the bad part. I was angry at no one. I just wanted some guidance and education for the drivers. The driver involved and his friends thought for a long time that I actually disliked that driver. I'm glad to say that has passed. It took going the extra mile and shaking his hand, wishing him a good race every time. We should not require drivers to create bad blood in order to have an incident investigated and corrections made.

[soapbox] [soapbox]

--------------------
Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

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quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
[QB] The difference is that I believe that any incident that is big enough to result in the inability of the car to continue (which requires an "Incident Report" per the Steward's Manual) should result in a review of the cause of the incident and the Executive Steward has that power under the GCR.

Kent - if drivers aren't motivated to file a protest on their own, why do you think they'll be more cooperative, and provide more information, if they're asked by a steward ? In my experience (which is, in this regard, considerable), they'll just stare at their shoes and mumble "I didn't see much of what happened". An Exec Steward can only conduct an effective "Driver Review" if there is real documentation...and protests (successful and unsuccess alike) are part of that documentation. Assuming that drivers who aren't willing to protest other drivers will suddenly erupt with a stream of witness statements and other evidence is unrealistic.


quote:
I was give the choice of throwing paper on one of the three when it was likely that all three contributed to the incident. Indeed, that was the ruling of the SOM. No one person was at fault, therefore no action was taken.
I don't understand the statement in bold, above. You could have protested all three. Stewards don't tell you who you can protest and who you cannot. Stewards cannot refuse to accept a protest.

quote:
We should not require drivers to create bad blood in order to have an incident investigated and corrections made.
THIS ^^^ is the core of the problem from drivers. They don't want to piss anybody off...they don't want to give evidence...they don't want to get contentious. THIS IS THE PROBLEM. If filing a protest is unaccpetable because it will create bad blood, how is providing evidence...witness statements...video...going to cause any less bad blood ? In driver's minds, it won't...so they won't do it. You will have created a whole new process that won't work because it has the same problems as the old process that didn't work - drivers don't want to create bad blood.

I have spoken to drivers about problems I have with their driving, person-to-person. I have also filed number of driver-to-driver protests. I have won them all. Still have both my kneecaps. No one has burned down my garage. I have more friends in the paddock than I have enemies.

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Impaler,

I had a choice, according to the steward (who is no longer a steward in the SowDiv). He would not accept 3 drivers. It was not easy to get the steward to even accept the protest. I had to insist. I didn't have $25 in cash, he refused to take a check. I begged cash off of a nearby friend. The steward said... you've run out of time, sorry. My watch differed. He relented.

I guess I could have protested the steward, but I wasn't gusty enough to do that at that time. I can't tell you how many times I have either been talked out of throwing paper or seen others talked out of it.

In the end, Impaler, are you okay with the idea that no Stewards ask "Hey, what happened out there?" when a big incident happens? I'm not.

--------------------
Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

John Nesbitt
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quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
Impaler,

I had a choice, according to the steward (who is no longer a steward in the SowDiv). He would not accept 3 drivers. It was not easy to get the steward to even accept the protest. I had to insist. I didn't have $25 in cash, he refused to take a check. I begged cash off of a nearby friend. The steward said... you've run out of time, sorry. My watch differed. He relented.


This is simply unacceptable behavior, not supported by the GCR, and any steward worthy of an entry-level license would know that. This is the sort of thing which brings the stewards program into disrepute.

And I write that as a steward.

Please see my earlier remarks about bringing these issues to the event Chief Steward and, if necessary, to the Division's Executive Steward.

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quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:

In the end, Impaler, are you okay with the idea that no Stewards ask "Hey, what happened out there?" when a big incident happens? I'm not.

No, and I didn't say that or imply that.

My point is that drivers tend to clam up after an incident, and will say "What difference will it make ? It won't un-crash my car". I've asked those questions, and been faced with the same response...as recently as last weekend at the Glen - I was a "Safety Stew"...not a "disciplinary stew"...and in speaking to drivers and filling out the "safety incident" forms, I asked those questions, and offered a brief introduction to the protest process, in case they didn't know...and I was met with a wall of resistance. So...drivers don't want to talk to stewards.

Before I became a steward, at an SCCA race a few years ago, driving Le Plastique Pig, I witnessed some major asshattery and encouraged another driver in my race group to protest...which he did...but none of the other drivers who I KNOW witnessed the event would fill out a witness statement or talk to the Operating Stewards...because they didn't want to create "bad blood". Stared at their shoes..."I didn't really see much". Protest was denied...because there was insufficient information.

See a pattern here ?

Want to make friends ? Be a WalMart greeter.

If you're going racing, you are going to be on poor relations with somebody, somewhere. There are people at the track who don't like me (lots, probably). I don't care. I'm actually sorta proud of it.

quote:
Originally posted by John Nesbitt:
And I write that as a steward.

Not that there is anything wrong with that.....

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Note to self: keep $25 with GCR in race gear bag.

Vick Verified Driver
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I wrote an email to the NE Div Chief Steward yesterday, here is part of his response to me. I don't know how many people are aware of what happened after the incident. note that John the Impaler already stated that as a safety steward he was involved:

I was present at the event last weekend as a steward, but not in a capacity directly involved with activities on the track. I was made aware of the incident around turn two where several cars incurred significant damage and a driver was injured. As a result, the Safety Stewards interviewed five of the drivers involved (four at the track and one in the hospital). Four of the damaged cars were inspected by those stewards and by Tech personnel to assess the magnitude of damage. During the interviews, none of the drivers wished to place blame or create an action against another driver when advised of their right to do so.

--------------------
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Dennis Valet
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Personally I think everyone should be required to drive an open wheeled formula car at least once in their racing career - that will cure you of your tendencies to rub metal pretty quickly [Wink]

CP Verified Driver
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^^^I plan to do so from now on.

I think John the Impaler was the one that took my incident report. Thank you for all your help in that hour. I was rattled and more concerned about my wrecked car than anything else. How can I get it onto the trailer? How am I going to pay for this? When will I be able to race again? Filing a protest wasn't on my mind that afternoon. After I had settled down, reviewed multiple videos and assessed the damage to my race car, the anger set in.

To recap my experience, John came to me after taking my incident report as the track wrecker was trying to pull my car onto my trailer. John urged me to file a protest but I had absolutely NO IDEA what had happened. I got hit HARD in the right rear, turned into and bounced off of the Armco and then slid in front of the back half of the field waiting to get creamed. My video didn't show anything to suggest who started the incident. Thank you to all of you who hit the brakes hard and slowed WAY down when you saw smoke.

To be honest, my mentality was exactly what someone mentioned above...to get the car on my trailer and get the hell out of there. My weekend was over. My car was wrecked so what's the point of protesting? After several days to cool off and review all the video, we know exactly what happened. In hindsight, I probably should have filed some kind of protest but I'm not really sure of the process, who to go to in order to do so, etc. Ignorance on my part.

The #22 and I will work out our differences. He has contacted me (thank you Kevin) and we'll get through this and know where each other stand next time we're on track together. Hopefully we can have fun racing against one another in the future, not having to worry about personal safety or what the other guy is going to do in particular situations. I'm here to race hard, race as safely as possible and above all to have fun.

--------------------
-Cy
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Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by d mathias:
Note to self: keep $25 with GCR in race gear bag.

$50 for a national...

--------------------
Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

soupy
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This weekend at the Beaverun National there will be a few people there that I intend to get together and start some kind of dialog to fix some of this. I know there is no "fix all" and it will not be easy, but we need to start somewhere. If I have to be the bad guy (and some think I always have been) then so be it. I'm not sure I'm the one for the job but I've had a few E-mails and talks with people that think I am so here goes.
I do know one thing though. I've seen this class going down a slippery slope in the last few years (at least in the Northeast)and have seen a lot of my friends and fellow racers not having much fun. That is not how it's suppose to be. That's not why we are all here. And if you ARE here to find a ride with nascar then you may be delusional.

--------------------
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Further thoughts from Earl Hurlbut, the Executive Steward for NEDiv, on last weekend's SM problems at the Glen -

The most direct line of communication available to a competitor is to talk to the Chief Steward or any steward who will direct you to the Chief or a steward acting as a Driver Advisor. There are several options open to a competitor who has a complaint. If a complaint can not be resolved through conversation, the GCR provides three forms of actions that can be applied; Protest, Chief Steward's Action (CSA) and Request for Action (RFA). However, the stewards cannot take any action unless they are made aware of the need to do so. The eyes for the Operating Stewards in Race Control are the flag stations who report conditions and incidents around the track. In the case of this incident where the cars were tightly grouped in a narrow part of the track some distance from the nearest flag station, it would be impossible for flag personnel to judge the cause of the incident. In a scenario such as this, it is the drivers who are the witnesses and have a responsibility to bring any issues to the attention of the stewards. As you can see in this case, no drivers came forward with any information that stewards could act upon. Any complaint brought to the stewards will be fully investigated and if corrective action is indicated, it will be done.

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quote:
Originally posted by Vick:
I wrote an email to the NE Div Chief Steward yesterday, here is part of his response to me. I don't know how many people are aware of what happened after the incident. note that John the Impaler already stated that as a safety steward he was involved:

I was present at the event last weekend as a steward, but not in a capacity directly involved with activities on the track. I was made aware of the incident around turn two where several cars incurred significant damage and a driver was injured. As a result, the Safety Stewards interviewed five of the drivers involved (four at the track and one in the hospital). Four of the damaged cars were inspected by those stewards and by Tech personnel to assess the magnitude of damage. During the interviews, none of the drivers wished to place blame or create an action against another driver when advised of their right to do so.

This is the problem. This is the 'you versus them' mentality that our GCR and Stewards program cultivates. It is punitive in design. It is about penalties and not safety or improving the sport.

In a previous career, I was responsible for disciplining physicians for errors made in a hospital environment. Initially, we found few doctors willing to discuss their potential errors or even to 'testify' against their colleagues because they knew the shoe would be on the other foot some day. Once we proved that we were no longer interested in punishment, but truly focused on finding the causes of bad outcomes and developing better ways, we got high levels of input. The process was often very heated and emotional, but the results were proven positive over time. We were able to change practice in measurable ways that made surgery safer.

We did have a big stick, too. A doctor who reported a bad outcome to us voluntarily and/or cooperated in the investigation was given 'limited immunity' from discipline. If we discovered the problem ourselves or if cooperation wasn't given, the process was much harsher.

The failure in process here was that the Stewards required the drivers' to protest. They should have said, "We need your video tape and your impressions of what happened, we will be having a Driver's Review on the incident at the next race." One only needs to read the comments of the competitors in the region to see how needed this really is.

--------------------
Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

Chris Windsor Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by d mathias:
Note to self: keep $25 with GCR in race gear bag.

+1

--------------------
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Vick Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
This is the problem. This is the 'you versus them' mentality that our GCR and Stewards program cultivates. It is punitive in design. It is about penalties and not safety or improving the sport.


I guess quotes can be taken out of context a bit, and I didn't want to post the entire email I received here.

From the tone of the Steward's email it didn't seem as if he was trying to create a Steward vs Driver mindset. Later in the email he explained the process in place to deal with things, and encouraged me to introduce myself to him, the "drivers advocate" steward, and to feel free to talk to them about anything.

Those who know me know I'm kind of new to this game, but starting to get my head around how it works. The email I received seemed to say "have any concerns, let us know. It doesn't have to be a protest." Heck, I'm sure there are other people out there who know the Stewards better than I do and could talk them into some things and put some direction to furthering the relationship between drivers and Stewards.

From the looks of this thread, it looks like something along those lines may be happening in our region. Personally, I'm hoping no more major incidents but know that's probably not realistic.

--------------------
http://www.volko.com

Danny Steyn Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by soupy:
This weekend at the Beaverun National there will be a few people there that I intend to get together and start some kind of dialog to fix some of this. I know there is no "fix all" and it will not be easy, but we need to start somewhere. If I have to be the bad guy (and some think I always have been) then so be it. I'm not sure I'm the one for the job but I've had a few E-mails and talks with people that think I am so here goes.
I do know one thing though. I've seen this class going down a slippery slope in the last few years (at least in the Northeast)and have seen a lot of my friends and fellow racers not having much fun. That is not how it's suppose to be. That's not why we are all here. And if you ARE here to find a ride with nascar then you may be delusional.

Charlie - good luck with this. I think you are doing the right thing. Please post back here in a seperate thread about how it is received and what the outcome is. You might very well create a formula that all regions can emulate. You have my support.

--------------------
Danny
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Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Vick:
quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
This is the problem. This is the 'you versus them' mentality that our GCR and Stewards program cultivates. It is punitive in design. It is about penalties and not safety or improving the sport.


I guess quotes can be taken out of context a bit, and I didn't want to post the entire email I received here.

From the tone of the Steward's email it didn't seem as if he was trying to create a Steward vs Driver mindset. Later in the email he explained the process in place to deal with things, and encouraged me to introduce myself to him, the "drivers advocate" steward, and to feel free to talk to them about anything.

Those who know me know I'm kind of new to this game, but starting to get my head around how it works. The email I received seemed to say "have any concerns, let us know. It doesn't have to be a protest." Heck, I'm sure there are other people out there who know the Stewards better than I do and could talk them into some things and put some direction to furthering the relationship between drivers and Stewards.

From the looks of this thread, it looks like something along those lines may be happening in our region. Personally, I'm hoping no more major incidents but know that's probably not realistic.

Vick and others... I want to apologize for my careless wording of what I was meaning to say here. I didn't mean 'Driver vs Steward'. I meant Competitor X vs Competitor Y!

I strongly believe that the 'criminal' and 'crime victim' mentality is the wrong one for 'policing' our sport. We are all amateurs, some of us are hacks. To expect us to drive perfectly all the time is unreasonable. What I want is for Stewards to call me out when I'm driving more like a hack than an amateur. If they can correct my bad judgment (overoptimistichailmaryheliocastoneves passes), they might save me and my friends some money and blood. That's what I was meaning!

Apologies again to those who read it how I wrote it and not how I meant it!

--------------------
Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

BK Verified Driver
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Protests between drivers works well when you have 2 drivers who have car to car contact in a race and one or both of the drivers think the other person was at fault and at the end of the race they can't resolve this themselves.

The problem last weekend in the Glen was that there were multiple cars involved with extensive damage to all cars and a visit to the hospital involved and nobody probably realized what started the chain reaction until racers went back to their trailers or home and watched their videos. Even Vic who was directly in back of me as I was getting spun out may not have seen what happened because at that point of the track you are concerned about making the corner at turn 2 and who is racing around you. This could have been caused by someone getting loose and spinning and taken the cars around him out, which would be a racing accident and not protestable in that case. That was not the case and this could definately have been avoided and a protest could have and should have been filed but I had no idea of what really happened until Vick posted his video and I watched it Monday morning.

My point is you may not always have enough information or may not even know the real reason an on track incident happens in "time" to file a protest. In cases like these is when a safety stewart should question the drivers and even informally speak to all involved to see if this was a racing incident or if further investigation is warranted.

This thread has done exactly that - in that it has made a lot of the drivers in our area sit up and take notice about the damage and injury that can occur because of overagressive or careless driving. Yes, file a protest of another driver if you have car to car contact and you feel that it needs to be brought to the attentions of the stewarts because that is a good working system in certain circumstances but if after the time has expired for protests and you have videos to share that will help every one figure out what went wrong in a race, they should viewed and discussed to make us better and safer racers!! We run most our races at the same tracks with the same people and if a driver meeting needs to be held to address a problem with your group than it should be done and attendance should be mandatory. Only by addressing these problems through the drivers and officials will the on track incidents caused by unsafe actions be lessened.

If we all work hard at it the "Fun One" might actually be a fun one!!

Bob Karl

--------------------
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quote:
Originally posted by BK:
If we all work hard at it the "Fun One" might actually be a fun one!!

We're sure gonna try. Supps should be posted by early next week. The usual format - Long Course on Saturday, Short Course on Sunday. Elizabeth T. and the Impaler are co-race chairmen (sorta like last year, and a few years ago), and we've got a special for those with cars that can run in more than one class...

"Double Dippers Delight" - same car/same driver, entry to another group (SSM > SM, SM > ITA, IT > ST, etc) will only be $100 additional. We've spaced out the groups so that SSM, SM and ITA/ITS are all separated by at least another group. You can triple-dip, if you have the tires, gas and adrenaline.

If I get a motor for Le Plastique Pig, I'll be racing that...but if I don't, maybe I'll be in the Miata.

planet-miata.com
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quote:
Originally posted by John the Impaler:
quote:
Originally posted by BK:
If we all work hard at it the "Fun One" might actually be a fun one!!

We're sure gonna try. Supps should be posted by early next week. The usual format - Long Course on Saturday, Short Course on Sunday. Elizabeth T. and the Impaler are co-race chairmen (sorta like last year, and a few years ago), and we've got a special for those with cars that can run in more than one class...

"Double Dippers Delight" - same car/same driver, entry to another group (SSM > SM, SM > ITA, IT > ST, etc) will only be $100 additional. We've spaced out the groups so that SSM, SM and ITA/ITS are all separated by at least another group. You can triple-dip, if you have the tires, gas and adrenaline.


can we quadruple dip??? i mean heck... i'll just keep the car on the track the whole time unless it's with wings and things..... [Big Grin]

--------------------
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