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Author Topic: CCPS-VIR cool down lap ruled legal for scoring
E-Speed Motorsports Verified Driver
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I think the subject title says it all.
I have now heard it all! SCCA officials have ruled that 22 CCPS competitors (not just SM) were expected to ignore the SCCA flagging rules (GCR section 6.11. 6.11.1.1. 6.11.2 6.11.2.H) AND BLOW THE CHECKER FLAG! [shame] Then SCCA Officials expected the competitors to know that they were still being scored even though the checker had already been displayed to the field ON THE TRACK. THEY SCORED THE RACE ON HOW YOU ENTERED IMPOUND!! Yes, you heard me right! SCCA SCORED the COOL DOWN LAP!! The SCCA officials told me that they don't see anything wrong with double checkering the race! I am extremely disappointed in the ruling. If you were affected, I urge you to file a protest or appeal or what ever you need to do. If nothing else tell SCCA that you will not feel safe racing in SCCA if the flags are suppose to be intentionally ignored. Christ, the competitors are busy enough with out having to decide if the checker is really the end of the race. THIS IS NUTS. IMHO ALL flags must always be obeyed!! Rule 6.11.1 even states this." they shall be obeyed immediately and without question." How can you KNOW to blow the flag if you don't question it?????
I am not happy [Mad]
SCCA [shame] SCCA [shame]

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everything was fine after they got the fire put out.

E-Speed Motorsports
Race Engineering

Danny Steyn Verified Driver
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Just curious - In the CCPS race, was the checkered first shown at the start/finish line or at the exit of Oaktree?

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Danny
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http://www.adeptstudios.com
OPM Autosports | Traqmate | Rossini Racing Engines
2010 June Sprints Champ, 2010 ARRC SMX Champ
2009 SARRC Champ, 2009 SEDiv ECR Champ, 2009 FES Champ
2008 SEDiv ECR Champ

E-Speed Motorsports Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Danny Steyn:
Just curious - In the CCPS race, was the checkered first shown at the start/finish line or at the exit of Oaktree?

Start/finish 22 cars early. Flag was displayed, withdrawn for 2 cars and then redisplayed still to the wrong car. Only 6 cars got the correct flag on course.

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everything was fine after they got the fire put out.

E-Speed Motorsports
Race Engineering

Marlboro Mafia Verified Driver
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These problems are surfacing in CCPS, but you ECR guys should be concerned as well. I've been through two of these protests and it's amazing how much guesswork and subjectivity is going into the finishing order.

wheel Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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This is a joke, right? Early April Fools? WTF?

Danny Steyn Verified Driver
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Guess we are all going to have to race the cool down laps at 10/10ths

--------------------
Danny
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OPM Autosports | Traqmate | Rossini Racing Engines
2010 June Sprints Champ, 2010 ARRC SMX Champ
2009 SARRC Champ, 2009 SEDiv ECR Champ, 2009 FES Champ
2008 SEDiv ECR Champ

Glenn Verified Driver
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QUOTE] Guess we are all going to have to race the cool down laps at 10/10ths [/QUOTE]

Including pit road! [

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Glenn
Crew chief Meathead Racing, NE Region Sales Division Race Engineering, The GOLD standard in SM engines, Occasional race slave for OPM Autosports

Capt. John
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As a Steward in the SEDIV, I really would like to know how this decision was arrived at and who...(names and faces)... made it. GCR 6.7.4 A..B.. seems to answer the question as to what needed to be done. Time to put down the six-shooters, we keep shooting ourselves in the foot. As a dear friend of mine liked to say when presented with an unbelievable situation YGTBSM!!

Capt. John

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quote:
Originally posted by Capt. John:
As a Steward in the SEDIV, I really would like to know how this decision was arrived at and who...(names and faces)... made it. GCR 6.7.4 A..B.. seems to answer the question as to what needed to be done. Time to put down the six-shooters, we keep shooting ourselves in the foot. As a dear friend of mine liked to say when presented with an unbelievable situation YGTBSM!!

Capt. John

Capt. John, I will be glad to discuss why 6.7.4 does not fit and can not be allowed to fit this particular situation. On the surface, 6.7.4 appears to be proper until other evidence came forward. Will you please give me an e-mail for me to respond to?
My email is wankelcity"at"aol"dot"com.
And just for the record I don't have any six-shooters, and to my knowledge no one has been shot in the foot. The actual protester and I are good freinds and are still good friends.

Estus White

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everything was fine after they got the fire put out.

E-Speed Motorsports
Race Engineering

Danny Steyn Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Glenn:
quote:
Guess we are all going to have to race the cool down laps at 10/10ths
Including pit road!
And dont dare slow down through the paddock on the way to impound since that appears to be where they are scoring the finish!!!!

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Danny
http://www.dannysteyn.com
http://www.adeptstudios.com
OPM Autosports | Traqmate | Rossini Racing Engines
2010 June Sprints Champ, 2010 ARRC SMX Champ
2009 SARRC Champ, 2009 SEDiv ECR Champ, 2009 FES Champ
2008 SEDiv ECR Champ

cooleyjb
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They blew the checkerflag in the open wheel SARRC race too. First overall didn't receive the checker. 2 lap traffic cars were the first to receive the checker followed by me who was 2nd overall.

Also during the open wheel qualifying a FV oiled the track from the end fo the backstraight through turn 4. NOT a single flag station picked it up. No debris flags. The oil slick was about 3 ft. wide and went right under the S/F tower. Everyone was going sideways in the turns. Noone knew about for at least one full lap for me after which I came in and told the pit marshalls who seemed entirely shocked. One car ended up VERY hard into the wall at pit entrance (could have been oil induced).

While I appreciate the hard work the flaggers do it was not their best showing that weekend.

Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Estus, I'd like to know how 6.7.4 doesn't apply...

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Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

Marlboro Mafia Verified Driver
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This instance may explain the past problems with CCPS finishes. Could it be that this has been going on for several years?

panic motorsports Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I wonder how many times I get to take the checkers twice "just in case" before I'm asked to NOT come back??

Following the rules, 6.11.2.H (common sense) could effectively be overrruled by a literal (and liberal) application of 6.7.4.A. Now, just to be clear, how am I supposed to know when the checkers have been displayed to the wrong car? Man, I can't wait to see the looks on you guys faces when I'm passin' for the win on the cool down lap. Oh, wait, I'll be 10/10ths all the way to the 2nd sighting of the checkers. Problem solved.

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Steve and Becca Bertok
#90 SM 2008/2009 Carolina Cup Pro Series SM champions.
2010 VIR 13 hour enduro victorious! www.panicmotorsports.com
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panic motorsports Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Marlboro Mafia:
This instance may explain the past problems with CCPS finishes. Could it be that this has been going on for several years?

Nah, we were all just pinchiing the pit stop "sit still" times and were getting dinged. At least that's what heppend to us. Twice. [Roll Eyes]

--------------------
Steve and Becca Bertok
#90 SM 2008/2009 Carolina Cup Pro Series SM champions.
2010 VIR 13 hour enduro victorious! www.panicmotorsports.com
Need a salvage Miata part? We've got that!

Lance Snyder Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by cooleyjb:

While I appreciate the hard work the flaggers do it was not their best showing that weekend.

Couple of things:

1) On that oil slick, I've been on the corner before where the only indication of oil has been the cars behavior. Sometimes it can be tough to see. Not saying this was the case, just something that is obvious from the cockpit may not be obvious to us (and vice versa of course).

2) This is for general information and can be done differently from place to place but I think Kershaw does it much in the way the rest of the northern half of the division does it (sorry, haven't been there for 2 years, hopefully make it for Memorial Day). If things are quiet about 1/2 way through the race start and race control(with timing listening in) will check with each other on the lap count and leaders. Then this will be done a couple laps from the end, again between start and timing. If that's all straight usually start will initiate the request for call around as it is the last lap(or they can ask for the 1 to go call around depending on the supps). At which point the leader gets called around as long as its agreed on. The flaggers job in life at 12/13/14 is to talk the leader through for start as instructed.

Now some complications can take place:

1) Kershaw is on radios, hence lots of chatter (needed or unneeded) can throw off communications and lead to confusion.

2) Poor numbers can lead things astray leading to wrong cars getting called around (especially on formula cars which can be rather tough to see).

3) Incorrect call throughs leading to wrong cars being called through, hence checker shown to wrong car.

I wasn't there... can't say what went on with the communications but it seems like some mistakes were made. Hopefully a debrief can be done and they can figure out where communications went awry.

Danny.. don't stop with just racing to impound, race onto the scales to be super sure! [Big Grin]

Steve, should I carry a checker in my flag bag just for you? [Big Grin]

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All this has happened before, and will happen again

E-Speed Motorsports Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
Estus, I'd like to know how 6.7.4 doesn't apply...

I'm spent for today. I'll get you something soon. I also want to talk to the protester first. As I have stated, my feelings are not directed at him/her. He/she is, was, and will remain my friend.

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everything was fine after they got the fire put out.

E-Speed Motorsports
Race Engineering

oem steve
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I think I'll stay racing until the car is strapped to the trailer. [Big Grin]

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Under powered and under driven

oem steve
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I pulled mylaps.com and you can see the cars that got the checker on lap 18 and the ones that didn't.

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Under powered and under driven

andrew_anderson
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E-Speed Motorsports Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
Estus, I'd like to know how 6.7.4 doesn't apply...

Kent,
Sorry I have not gotten back. There is apparently new evidence brought forward and the SOM court might reconvene on the matter. Until that takes place (or not), my opinions of the rules won't matter anyway. With that said, I am very pleased that the matters may be looked at again. I am very hopeful a solution that is fair to all will come from this.

Just as a matter of fact, Kent, 6.7.4. is not in question. 6.7.4.A and it's application (or not applying it) is the rule at the center of the debate.

I want to go on record and tell everyone that the NCR region is a very outstanding region. NCR is so good for me that I decided to dual enroll my region of record and joined NCR along with my CCR enrollment. NCR does as good a job as is humanly possible to put these events on for us and I recognize this and commend them for it. NCR has not done ANYTHING wrong, and in fact is actively trying to help find a fair solution to help resolve these controversies.

Estus

--------------------
everything was fine after they got the fire put out.

E-Speed Motorsports
Race Engineering

   

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