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Author Topic: SARRC & ECR SM tire for 2010?
Jim Creighton
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Now that SCCA has announced that SM will return to the RA-1 for 2010, the SEDiv need to decide what tire for SM for regional race series. Currently, the rules for SEDiv Regional series is the same tire as for National races. The ECR rules are vague but that was the original intent before the R888 experience.

All this aside, the RE's of SEDiv will hold their mid year meeting in late July and will vote on the 2010 regional class rules in which is the SM tire rule.

As the Administrator of the SARRC series and an ECR Committee member, I have no vote. However, I do have the ability to suggest/request items.

I would like for the SM drivers of this division to convince me that we should not remove all requirements for a required SM tire for all SEDiv regional races and have an open tire rule for SM in 2010. In clear words, I am in favor of no spec tire for SEDiv! Now, convince me I am wrong or tell me you agree.

Currently, there are no benefits from Toyo to use their tire for a regional race. Other tire companies have tires which can be used by SM competitors. And by having an open tire rule, individuals would be able to seek the best "deal" in obtaining tires to run any regional race including SARRC or ECR.

Here is the section that applies from the current SEDiv rules:
Spec Miata (SM)
Revised July 2005
Reviewed July 2006
Reviewed July 2007
Reviewed July 2008
SM class must comply with SCCA GCR and category specifications for SM. The Spec
Miata tire rule for SEDiv regional races is the same tire as listed in the GCR for the Spec
Miata National race class with any references in Fastrack. Rain tire choice is open.
SM Advisory Committee:
Jason Holland
Gary Jenkins

In order to have the rule changed to what I suggest, you must contact SM Advisory Committee members Jason & Gary or Butch Kummer, the Chairman of the rules committee.
His email is gt1vette@bellsouth.net.

The change in the tire rule, if approved, would take effect immediately after the SIC since the first 2010 SARRC race is the next weekend. For ECR, it would start in calendar 2010.

You have five weeks before this is decided for 2010.

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Jim Creighton
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andrew_anderson
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I agree with the no spec tire decision.
Simply because there are so many tires out there, that if you want a tire to do something specific, there is a tire for you.

This would also allow people to use up their old Toyos and not have to worry about a "new" tire that has just came out.

With regards to costs, i think a lot of the front runners buy a new set for nearly every race.

I think this would also be a good way to bring in some contingency sponsors for tires.

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Jim, Are you just talking SM or are you talking all SEDIV classes? The spec tire for IT-7 will also need to be addressed because it is a 13" RA-1 that I presume will be obsoleted when stock is gone? Anyway, I would be in favor of an open tire for SM and the other SEDIV classes. I will write Butch or Jason or all of them and let then know my opinion. Thanks.
Estus

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everything was fine after they got the fire put out.

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Jim Creighton
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Estus and all

I never liked the Spec tire for IT-7 so let's get rid of it also.

Originally, I liked the Spec tire for SM. However, now I think we should allow everyone to use the tire of their choice.

As I said, convince me I am wrong or support my position.

Those of you who have gotten to know me in the past couple of years know I really support SM and I want to be sure I'm taking the correct position.

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Jim Creighton
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motorrock
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No dog in this fight, but I have a question...

What other part on a "Spec Miata" is open also?

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SamBarnett Verified Driver
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A completely open tire rule opens the doors for people to have 10 different tire compounds and make everyone else non-competitive. How about making a list of 5 types that the competitors can pick from instead. If a new tire comes on the market then you can petition to have it added to the "approved" list. For example I could see allowing the Hoosier SM but not the AutoX compound...

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Jason Holland Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Jim, respectfully... You're wrong. Yes, open tires would be easier and would even have some advantages over a spec tire but open tires IMO (no h) would be one of the final nails in the coffin for sm. With open tires you have, as sam suggested, compound tomfoolery, tire of the month syndrome ( where everyone feels the need to go buy the most expensive, shortest lasting tire because of an advantage that tire brings, perceived or not. Just because we can't police some areas more (engines etc) doesn't mean we can't contain costs in this area.

Creating open tire rules to get more contingency is not a good argument in my mind. In the end, that only helps few at the expense of many. Right now we should be thinking of ways to contain costs, not increase them. A tire war will increase costs.

Yes, the r888 thing has been pretty much a disaster compared to the ra1. But I still think it was better than open tires. And now with Toyo willing to make the ra1 again for us, I don't think it's time to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I won't rehash all the arguments (search spec tire) but open tires is the wrong decision for this class and the membership has proven so again and again. Every poll taken on his site, every straw poll taken at the track and the "official" poll conducted by the sediv a couple of years ago have all indicated overwhelmingly that the membership has wanted a spec tire.

Isn't that enough?

Thanks

Jason

P.S. Edited because of iphone typing ugliness

[ 06-14-2009, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: Jason Holland ]

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Jason Holland
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I would reiterate what Jim said and please contact me, Gary and butch ( yes, all of us) and let us know how you feel. I can be reached her via pm or jlh at hollandit dot biz

thx

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Jason Holland
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Hotshoe
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim Creighton:

Originally, I liked the Spec tire for SM. However, now I think we should allow everyone to use the tire of their choice.

Jim,

.... Instead of a spec " Brand " why not make it a spec " Price"

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First of all people need to understand that the SARRC and ECR are SEDIV REGIONAL SERIES....they are not National races. If you want to run the National tire...then run National races. Most of us who race in regionals want a tire that will be cheap to buy and last a long time. Car counts are down and will continue to drop if we keep making decisions that increase costs. Toyo has no incentive to lower tire prices because they have no competition. Hoosier has no interest in offering SM racers a deal because we can't run their tire. The fastest guys and the teams with the most money will always shave the tire to 1/32 and use a new set for qualifying and race regardless of the brand of tire. I am not competing with those guys. I want 2 sets of tires to last a season. If you are a regional racer in the southeast and want to run your choice of tire then you need to respond to this thread and let your Regional Executive know how you feel. Jim I want an open tire so I can run Nitto, Hoosier, Toyo or whoever sells me a decent tire at the best price.

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I ABSOLUTELY WANT A SPEC TIRE - preferably one that is inexpensive and is competitive up to around 10 heat cycles minimum

OPEN TIRE WILL be HUGELY expensive.

Jason I am with you on this one - Jim - much apprecaite your openness in this respect and appreciate your support for our class - but PLEASE SPEC A TIRE!

REGIONAL AND NATIONAL must use SAME TIRE.

Hope I made mysef clear - as a newbie I can see that this is not going to be a popular voice here, flame suit on, but like Jason I beleive that and open tire will definitely INCREASE COSTS.

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There is a reason that the GCR has different tire rules for Nationals and Regionals. We are different racers. Regionals were always intended for the weekend hobbyist. Danny, no disrespect intended, but you Todd, Drago, Chip, Andrew, Jamie, etc are National drivers who run regional races because you want and can afford to race all of the time. The highest car counts are regional drivers who are not on the same program as you guys. I want a choice based on cost and longevity...not ultimate performance. If they have to spec a tire for regionals, then put a waiver provision in the rules as well.

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Paul McLester

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The open tire v's spec tire argument is always an exciting one.

To me the main reason for contention is that spec tire will be much better for some while open tire will be much better for others.

Having run open tire/choice of 3 and Spec Tire in SM I can say unreservedly that for REGIONAL racers an open tire is the only sane option. There's just no question about it. Better choice, more contingencies, more options for castoff tires (I ran SM the entire time it was open tires on throwaway tires from the Hoosier pile) Tire of the day/week/month is not an issue for regional racing. If you're testing 5 different tire compounds to run regional you're an idiot and are welcome to it. If you've got that budget go race National [Smile]

The purveyors of doom conveniently ignore the time period when SM regional WAS open which by the way coincided with the absolute hayday of SM with 60 car races commonplace. The change from choice of 3 to open to spec didn't change the running order it just changed how much money regional folks were spending. Guess what, it was a LOT less.

If you like the RA1 and want to run with NASA, buy those. If you only run SM regional and maybe double-dip in ITA then run the Hoosier, they're awesome. Again this is REGIONAL FUN racing, lets keep it simple!!! IT has had open tires for years and I am here to tell you it did ZERO harm. I will wager 99% of IT guys have a lower per-race tire budget than SM, even on RA1. I ran an entire IT season on one set of Hoosier tires. (30+ cycles)

Open tire is not the boogeyman, it will not harm the class. Again, we have been here before, we've done this before and it was awesome I don't understand the reluctance? Car counts were massive, guys ran the tire they wanted, everyone was happy. What's not to like?

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Colin MacLean
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If you want to run a SPEC class it needs a spec tire. If you want an open tire run IT. Most of the SM world was happy with the old RA-1 and lets hope thats what we get in 2010. Its a spec class and we should all be on the same tire. It really did matter how you shaved it, how old it was, or what side of the car it was on every one was equal and thats what we want.

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Tom

If it was really a spec class we wouldn't have open exhaust, open air intake (1.6L), open wires, open brake pads, etc. and finally we would have sealed motors and not Pro Motors! The people who say we are spec and need a spec tire always ignore that we are not spec motors.

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Paul McLester

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Can we change the title of this thread to "Pandora's Box"?

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I am much closer to Jason than Jim on this one. I think we should have a spec tire although I am not opposed to a list of approved tires (see SEDIV rules when we had the Toyo and Kumho on the list).

I am not as concerned with matching the National spec tire as some are. I see SM as a regional class that runs national. Letting the national 'tail' wag the regional 'dog' doesn't make much sense.

The accountant in me struggles with giving away a valuable asset (the spec tire for SE regional racing) without being paid for it.

I certainly don't want to get into a debate AGAIN about this. Please email/PM me your thoughts. Also as not every SE SM driver frequents these boards, please pass along Jason, Butch and my email addresses so that additional input can be received.

Thanks.

gary at gdjenkins dot com

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SM needs a spec tire. A durable, consistent, economical tire for Regional racing. If it's the same as the National tire, that's good for the guys that can do both. The RA-1 did that for us, the R888 does not. If another mfg can do it for us, lets go for it. But the tire has to deliver, and the R888 has not.

Scott
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quote:
Originally posted by Gatoratty:
Tom

If it was really a spec class we wouldn't have open exhaust, open air intake (1.6L), open wires, open brake pads, etc. and finally we would have sealed motors and not Pro Motors! The people who say we are spec and need a spec tire always ignore that we are not spec motors.

Paul,

It's not a matter of ignoring those issues. It's like I said, just because we can't police all areas of "non-specness" doesn't mean we shouldn't police the ones we can.

It's one less area to worry about. Less testing, fewer tires for people who can afford it least and everyone is on the same stuff.

By your argument, we should have no specifications at all... I would guess that's not what you really want right?

Respectfully,

Jason

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Jason Holland
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quote:
Originally posted by TaxMan:
I am much closer to Jason than Jim on this one. I think we should have a spec tire although I am not opposed to a list of approved tires (see SEDIV rules when we had the Toyo and Kumho on the list).

I am not as concerned with matching the National spec tire as some are. I see SM as a regional class that runs national. Letting the national 'tail' wag the regional 'dog' doesn't make much sense.

The accountant in me struggles with giving away a valuable asset (the spec tire for SE regional racing) without being paid for it.

I certainly don't want to get into a debate AGAIN about this. Please email/PM me your thoughts. Also as not every SE SM driver frequents these boards, please pass along Jason, Butch and my email addresses so that additional input can be received.

Thanks.

gary at gdjenkins dot com

I would like to put out there that I probably would not be against an approved list of tires as Gary suggests and what we used to have. As long as the tire are comparable in economy and performance and as long as one of them is the same tire as National and NASA, don't think that would be the end of the world. Not my first choice but not the end of the world.

I will NEVER support an open tire.

We welcome the input.

Jason

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Jason Holland
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Terry Whitlock Verified Driver
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Jim,Jason and Gary,
I would like to urge that whatever you decide, that it not lock in to a single spec tire choice. I don't think anyone wants to repeat being locked in to a tire that was inappropriate for a regional entry level class such as Spec Miata. For those that would advocate a single tire that is neither durable or consistent I would suggest that they look at characteristics of the majority of competitors that make up the regional Spec Miata fields. While the front 10 or 12 drivers appear to be able to afford pro motors, pro preparation and multiple sets of tires the balance of the field is made up of drivers for whom cost is a very serious consideration. Tire wear and cost has a significant impact on their ability to run races. Maybe some are not concerned about those competitors and won't mind eventually racing in small fields with their equally funded competitors. Not to offend, but the folks with this level of talent and budget should probably be running at the National level.

In any event, the development of SSM may provide the lower tier guys a place to run that is more consistent with the original intent of SM.

Its probably not practical, but during the years I ran a GT car on slicks the manufacturer generally offered three compounds in our size of tire. Basically, it was a soft (fast/short lived), medium ( little slower/longer lasting and hard (slowest/longest lasting). The guys who could afford a set or two of tires each weekend went with the soft compound and ran at the front. Those of us on a limited budget could chose the hard compound and accepted the performance/cost trade off. I don't really see this as being much different than the current situation is SM where the front runners use deep shaves and frequent replacement to gain a performance edge. The difference in 2009 was that the remaining 2/3 of the field was forced to run a tire that required frequent replacement even when using a conservative shave. For many this resulted in either waiving points and/or running fewer events.

My bottom line is that I would prefer more than a single option and the primary selection criteria should be cost, durability and consistency. Since there does not seem to be a testing program capable of such an evaluation, I would urge two or three optional tires for the class. Whatever is done should not create a situation like 2009 where officials (SCCA) have no option to make adjustments should it become clear that the original choice/choices are not performing consistent with the above criteria. We have a great class and a great group of competitors, so let's make a decision that takes in the interests of what I believe to be the majority of the people that make up the group.

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Jim Creighton
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OK, both members of the Ad Hoc Committee seem to already have their mind made up that there can not be an open tire rule.

So, does that mean one spec tire or just not open tire?

If one spec tire, who decides? If not open tire, then again, who decides the list?

I'm trying to push this forward so we can be ready to present something logical to the RE's in July that everyone can agree will benefit all competitors in SM.

At this time last year, no one would have predicted the problems of 2009. Let's try to come up with something that will avoid them in 2010.

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Jim Creighton
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Why not use this as an opportunity to milk a contingency out of Toyo. NASA managed to do it, I would imagine SCCA ought to be able to. Tires are the same price for both organizations yet NASA pays out the top 5...

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quote:
Originally posted by Jim Creighton:

If one spec tire, who decides? If not open tire, then again, who decides the list?

I'm trying to push this forward so we can be ready to present something logical to the RE's in July that everyone can agree will benefit all competitors in SM.

Jim,

.... What if we contact the tire manufacturers, get a list of their proposed prices (if they were to get the nod),and then we all take a vote.

....Giving the other tire suppliers a chance will help to bring the price down.... We may even get a better tire at a lesser price.

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Great idea and would certainly result in the lowest tire prices to members but SCCA has never been a fan of that kind of transparency. They prefer smoke, mirrors, and tire tests. ;-)


quote:
Originally posted by Hotshoe:
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Creighton:

If one spec tire, who decides? If not open tire, then again, who decides the list?

I'm trying to push this forward so we can be ready to present something logical to the RE's in July that everyone can agree will benefit all competitors in SM.

Jim,

.... What if we contact the tire manufacturers, get a list of their proposed prices (if they were to get the nod),and then we all take a vote.

....Giving the other tire suppliers a chance will help to bring the price down.... We may even get a better tire at a lesser price.


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I agree with Terry. The issue is cost and people not being able to afford to race. Jim, the "advisors" should probably recuse themselves as they have an obvious bias that may not be in line with the rest of the SEDIV SM drivers. If you represent the drivers you are supposed to set your own prejudices aside. SEDIV regional entries make up the largest SM field in the country...yet there isn't even a $100 a set coupon offered by Toyo that benefits our drivers. At least Hoosier had a factory engineer at the Daytona ECR.

--------------------
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Why not run the hoosier 43335? That would certainly keep costs down.
 -

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quote:
Originally posted by Gatoratty:
I agree with Terry. The issue is cost and people not being able to afford to race. Jim, the "advisors" should probably recuse themselves as they have an obvious bias that may not be in line with the rest of the SEDIV SM drivers. If you represent the drivers you are supposed to set your own prejudices aside.


Wow. Being accused of bias and prejudice all in the same paragraph!

I guess under that logic, Jim should recuse himself from any decisions also right? Because he obviously has a "bias".

[Smile]

quote:


SEDIV regional entries make up the largest SM field in the country...yet there isn't even a $100 a set coupon offered by Toyo that benefits our drivers. At least Hoosier had a factory engineer at the Daytona ECR.

Maybe someone ought to take it on to negotiate something with toyo. That's what other organizations have done.

You want a job?

[Smile]

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You want a Spec tire for SEDIV Regional racing ??
Vote Open tire ....
immediately Hoosier becomes the defacto spec tire [scratchchin]
90 % of all regional SM racers will buy Hoosier ... unless another brand is providing tires for free (highly doubt it) or at a BIG discount ... then, more power to you if you can save a few bucks.
Most will buy the SM6, some fools will buy the R6, and another small group will occasionally buy the A6 for special sprint races like the SIC.
This is Regional low bucks racing we are talking about. Too bad the National boys are hosed through 2011.
In the real world ... "spec tire" = hosed by the chosen tire mfg.
"Open tire" = the choice to buy the best value tire out there ...
until Hoosier comes to their senses and pulls 'a Toyo' by screwing with the tire compound. Then you have the freedom to buy another brand based on your personal racing criteria.
Why is this so hard to understand ??? other than those out there with agendas ...
RE's should make their final decision exclusively based on what is in the best interests of the majority of their SCCA REGIONAL SM racers.
Carlos G.

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quote:
Originally posted by Hotshoe:
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Creighton:

If one spec tire, who decides? If not open tire, then again, who decides the list?

I'm trying to push this forward so we can be ready to present something logical to the RE's in July that everyone can agree will benefit all competitors in SM.

Jim,

.... What if we contact the tire manufacturers, get a list of their proposed prices (if they were to get the nod),and then we all take a vote.

....Giving the other tire suppliers a chance will help to bring the price down.... We may even get a better tire at a lesser price.

Not likely to happen. The clubs have established relationships with the tire companies already. They are not easily swayed. Tire distribution is not an easy task, ask Hankook. Toyo has done an amazing thing in the tire industry....listen to it's customer...most would just turn there nose up and do what is good for their business. I frankly think SCCA and NASA have a good thing going...a tire company that is willing to listen !!! I also think Hoosier would listen too, if given the chance. As far as cutting the price down...there ain't that much room in the price for cost cutting and still have the manufacturer, distributor and maybe the retail dealer to make a few bucks....

I think Sam has the best idea.......get Toyo to give the SCCA regional guys Toyo bucks also.....their program works best for everyone.

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Actually Jason I have been negotiating with their sister company Nitto trying to get a deal for the SEDIV drivers. I didn't even mention your position with NASA...of course you would like to see SCCA drivers use the same tire as NASA for crossover. I guess that isn't a conflict either.

I am stepping off the box [soapbox] .

Most of the people I have spoken with at the track read this forum, but don't post. Most of them want to run the SM6 or RA1.

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Paul McLester

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quote:
Originally posted by Gatoratty:
[QB] Actually Jason I have been negotiating with their sister company Nitto trying to get a deal for the SEDIV drivers. I didn't even mention your position with NASA.


Well good thing you didn't. Because then everyone would know my position at NASA. Oh wait. It's right there in my sig. Silly me, I should change that! [Smile]

quote:
..of course you would like to see SCCA drivers use the same tire as NASA for crossover. I guess that isn't a conflict either.


Of course I want crossover. And you should too. Easy crossover is what is going to keep this class (and both organizations)going. The RE's understand this (or at least the regional accountants do).

As for conflict? No, I don't think so. I think having some sort of position on both sides of the fence actually facilitates communication and cohesiveness in the class as it pertains to cross-organizational business. I think the SM SMAC would agree.

quote:

I am stepping off the box [soapbox] .

Most of the people I have spoken with at the track read this forum, but don't post. Most of them want to run the SM6 or RA1.

Then why are we talking open tire? [Wink]

Jason

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Jason Holland
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Because we can! [Smile] Nothing like a good open debate versus the closed door decision the BOD made to choose the R-888 last year. [Smash] If we implement SSM in the division what tire rule will be used?

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Paul McLester

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Lot's of talk on here but I only have two emails.

I certainly don't like to be accused of bias Paul. You don't know me and leaping to that conclusion without discussing with me is only done because you don't think I agree with you. Poor form. I will be happy to accept a sincere apology.

Take some time to read some of my old posts from way before you joined. I have been a strong advocate of both spec tire rules and open tire rules over the past several years. Just so everyone knows, I think the Hoosier SM is the best tire I ever raced on in a SM, and the SEDIV "open rain tire" rule is there because I pushed for it.

I am a regional racer. I have done only one National and only because it was at Daytona and I was there racing the ECR. I don't race NASA because the fields are weak in Florida. My only concern is meeting the needs of SCCA regional racers.

From the emails I have recieved I have one guy who wants open tires and one that wants spec. I don't accept third party votes as either side can tell me that is what the guys at the track are wanting.

As I said before, I am not debating this as I can/have supported both sides. I want to know what SEDIV SM drivers want. Email me at gary at gdjenkins dot com.

P.S. I still think is is poor stewardship of an asset to spec a tire without someone paying us for the asset. Perhaps our recommendation to the REs should be approval and authorization for the SEDIV AdHoc Committee or designee (Paul [Smile] ) to request bids from the various manufacturers with respect to pricing and contigencies.

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Gary Jenkins
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It has ALWAYS been my intention that SSM will be a spec tire. I think it makes sense that it should be the same one as NASA and SCCA National (which should on both accounts be RA-1 next year).

The rules I wrote for Atlanta region specified the R-888 but that will be revisited, obviously.

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Jason Holland
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Last time I was accused of poor form was when I was playing cricket. Sorry if I offended you. I agree with you about not giving any tire manufacturer something for free. I would be happy to see Toyo, Hoosier or any other tire co. have to give a $100 or $150 coupon off a set of four tires for drivers holding a competition license. I would be happy to contact the tire manufacturers for a deal. Which ones? I guess that is the point of this debate.....

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Paul McLester

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Real question for you guys: Why not get rid of the SEDIV SM rules entirely and concentrate our efforts on getting the rules we want in the GCR? Why have an extra set of rules that makes it confusing for competitors? If it is necessary to keep the SEDIV SM rules, can you articulate for me why?

When SM was a regional-only class, it made since to have regional (divisional) rules, but now it seems redundant (confusing) to me.

Thanks..

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Cricket. I played that at school in New Zealand. Sucked at it and baseball.

We can dance around manufacturers all day, but once we are done it always winds up with Hoosier & Toyo.

PERSONAL OPINION THAT IS BEING USED FOR THE CONCLUSION I REACHED ABOVE. IF YOU DON'T AGREE I WILL ACT LIKE I UNDERSTAND BUT WILL KNOW DEEP IN MY HEART YOU ARE AN IDIOT AND WRONG.

I believe that whatever we do in SEDIV racing should involve the brands that Appalachian sells. I want them to make money so the can keep showing up at every single national and regional event in the division. They sell Toyos and Hoosier (and maybe Hankook).

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Gary Jenkins
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quote:
Originally posted by TaxMan:
Cricket. I played that at school in New Zealand. Sucked at it and baseball.

We can dance around manufacturers all day, but once we are done it always winds up with Hoosier & Toyo.

PERSONAL OPINION THAT IS BEING USED FOR THE CONCLUSION I REACHED ABOVE. IF YOU DON'T AGREE I WILL ACT LIKE I UNDERSTAND BUT WILL KNOW DEEP IN MY HEART YOU ARE AN IDIOT AND WRONG.

I believe that whatever we do in SEDIV racing should involve the brands that Appalachian sells. I want them to make money so the can keep showing up at every single national and regional event in the division. They sell Toyos and Hoosier (and maybe Hankook).

this sounds like whats going on in

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Goodyear also shows up at the track...but I agree with your premise in supporting the people who support us.

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Paul McLester

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Mark...If we went by the GCR we would have an open tire rule for regionals. SARRC and ECR are both regional races.

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quote:
Originally posted by TaxMan:

We can dance around manufacturers all day, but once we are done it always winds up with Hoosier & Toyo.

[/QB]

Tax ; what about my Nitto 01's ?
much cheaper than the RA1 or the SM6 ... and a set will last me forever [yep]
oh-pehn my friend ... is what's best for a Tiger, the Gator and this Ibis [Smile]

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You can also buy the Nitto 01 at Tire Kingdom and Discount Tire for $127 a tire.

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Paul McLester

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Paul, right, so why have a separate process for SEDIV rules, so that drivers have to try to figure out rules precedence? This seems like more extra work to me, for everyone involved.

Rules at any given race begin with the GCR and FastTrack updates, and can be superceded by the event Supps if necessary. Why have a middle level, especially if it has to be specifically referenced by the Supps to be in effect?

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Mark
I agree with you. I wrote the same argument in the recent tire appeal.

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Paul McLester

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I'm somewhat of a Newbie here, but have been involved with ITC. I haven't driven a Miata enough yet to have a bias toward a favorite tire yet.

I support an open tire for the same philosophy that allows open exhausts, 1.6 intakes, radiators, wiring; etc.

Economically, I think competition between several tire companies should lower prices for their product. Tire-wars could also spark contingency or discount battles directly benefiting the drivers.
(I think there was a thread recently that Nitto was practically giving away tires for some initial exposure.)
Additionally these companies, may be eager or have he need to sponsor weekend events throughout the division. If so, this could increase the revenue for the region or result in lower fees for the driver. Either way, everyone benefits.

My shiny-new $.02

Todd

(PS)My last car ran 225-45-13s. Hoosier R6 was the only game in town at $188 until Hankook z214 entered the US at $147. Hoosier offered nothing but the price. 'Kook had a nice contingency plan and a lower cost.

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Can we all agree that we should use our leverage in our large numbers to get contingency money from the manufacturer for being the spec tire? NASA did it, why would SCCA not do it? (unless they used that leverage to receive a check to HQ instead of helping out the racers)

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Sam...I agree. We as a division have the largest number of Spec Miatas in the country we should put that to good use. Regional entries far out number National entries and yet National drivers get the contingency money. SCCA did do it..just not for the regional racer.

I am waiting for an answer from Nitto regarding help if we use their tire. They met with Toyo (their sister company) last week to discuss participation.

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Jim, CFR still has a open rule and other regions are going that way as reading some of the threads on this site mention. I would like to see an open tire rule or a list of three to four tires namely SM 6, Ra-1, R888 and maybe the nitto. I believe these are all under $200. each list price, shaved. My car is co owned and we run in I.T. and SM we just purchased the R888 at Daytona and only run 3 to 4 races a year. I don't want to sign waivers or have the rules changed last minute like at Daytona. We had to take off good Ra-1s to run the ECR & there was no communication to let us know what was going on. This whole spec. tire thing has been FUBAR from the word go and if we stay a one tire class it will be again. I am not worried about contingency money that goes to top 4 places and in our class that usely is the national guys.

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Sorry to be late to the party but I've been away from the computer since Saturday morning when this whole thing got started. Since then I've heard from four people - 1 wants a spec tire, 2 want open tires, and 1 wants a list of tires (with a maximum price) to choose from.

As Jim said in the original post, he has no vote in this matter. Beyond that, I have no vote, the Rules Committee has no vote, the Advisory Committee (Jason and Gary) has no vote, and the SEDIV Directors have no vote. The RE's are the only ones that vote based on suggestions that are given to them by the Rules Committee, which is based on input from the AC. Sometimes the RE's accept our recommendations, and sometimes they reject them entirely.

If you want to know what I think is good, look at the GTA tire rules. It can change each year based on input from the tire distributors (Appalachian and Competition Tire), but for 2009 you can run a Goodyear 2572, a Goodyear 2602, or a Hoosier 3035. All three are $600 a set mounted and balanced, and both distributors offer contingency money. It works for us.

SM is obviously more complicated not only because it's a Runoffs class (with attendant input/interference by the BOD) but also because it's one of NASA's strongest classes as well.

The National SMAC (who should be the closest to the knowing what ALL SM drivers want) has repeatedly asked (demanded?) that the Regional rules mirror the National rules, but that request has been turned down repeatedly by the BOD. When we last discussed this at a divisional level (and I almost got thrown out of the mid-year meeting by the Area 3 Director), the majority of SEDIV SM drivers responding wanted to have the same tire for both Nationals and Regionals. That was before the R-888 debacle, of course. The answer today might be different.

Those who want to ignore what NASA is doing have never had to figure out how to make an event work financially. Whether the greybeards accept it or not, there are a LOT of crossover drivers (particularly in SM) between the two organizations. It behooves BOTH of us to work together to have a common set of rules.

I haven't run this by anyone else, but let me, Gary, and Jason know what you think about this:

= = = = = = = =

SM Tire Rules:

. For the 2010 seasons, the following are the only tires eligible for SARRC and ECR competition:

- Toyo R-888
- Toyo RA-1
- Hoosier SM-6

. All four tires on the car at any time must be of the same model number.

I assume at least one of those three would be a decent rain tire (perhaps unshaved), so there's no need to have a specification for rain tires.

= = = = = =

Let me/us know what you think and we'll pass it along to the RE's before the Mid-Year meeting. Since that meeting is July 25, have your input to us by Monday, July 6, so we can consolidate the counts and pass it along to the RE's.

Butch Kummer

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Atlanta Region Asst. RE, Competition Director

 
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