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Author Topic: Proposal to legalize bump drafting in SCCA
SamBarnett Verified Driver
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Has this ever been proposed in the past? If so what was the outcome?

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Dan Tiley Verified Driver Series Champ
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I find this frustrating as well. Racer's get DQ'ed or at least lose positions for bump drafting all the time, but banging in fenders and doors are seen as "racing incidents".

Doesn't NASA have some sort of rule where you can put an X on your rear bumper if you don't want to be bumped, but otherwise it's fair game? That sounds like a pretty good rule to me!

I think it's pretty exciting as a spectator to watch the 2nd and 3rd place guys run down the leader by working together.

Just my [twocents]

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JimEli Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Dan Tiley:
I think it's pretty exciting as a spectator to watch the 2nd and 3rd place guys run down the leader by working together.

Just my [twocents]

OTOH, I think it's pretty unexciting as a spectator to watch 1st and 2nd run away from 3rd place guys by working together.

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Yeah, I want to propose that if you are in 1st or 2nd you need to slow down and wait for me! Can we get that passed? [Big Grin]

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quote:
Originally posted by SamBarnett:
Has this ever been proposed in the past? If so what was the outcome?

"Thank you for your input, the rule is fine as written."

I think you will probably see something like this.

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SamBarnett Verified Driver
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NASA seems to have made it legal, why can't the SCCA? The answer I got from someone I asked at the track was "insurance". Certainly NASA has insurance too....

Would a petition or something along those lines help?

I really would like to see this legalized in SCCA like it is in NASA. I'm willing to put forth effort on this movement if others think it's worthwhile.

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Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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NASA's rule on this is just about perfect. The SCCA... [banghead]

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suck fumes Verified Driver
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the way i see it is, since we sign the waiver and pay the rediculously expensive entry fees, its our life and our decision so we should be able to bump or do whatever the heck we want. When it comes down to it, we are paying good money to race and it's our cars that we are messing up not SCCA's. NASA's rule is much more sensible with putting the X on the bumpe

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its all fine till an idot bumpdrafts in a corner.good drivers can bumpdraft, but mid pack will be carnage

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kim willcox

SamBarnett Verified Driver
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I've never heard of NASA having any problems resulting from their bumpdrafting rule. I don't believe their rule permits it in the corners?

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Gatoratty Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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First comparing NASA and SCCA is difficult as NASA has about 10% of the number of race entries on a weekend as SCCA. We had 61 Spec Miata entries at Sebring 2 weeks a go and 320 total entries. The lack of a rule in SCCA has to do with coming up with a rule that is enforceable, clearly defined, and yet maintains safety for all competitors (some people don't want you hitting them in a corner to make them hit the tire wall faster). I spoke with a member of the BOD tonight and we discussed issues such as defining a straight (is NASCAR 2, or NASCAR 3,4 at Daytona a straight or a corner?) what is safe for a Miata may not be safe for a GT1 car doing 190 mph on the banking of Daytona. We all complain that the stewards in different regions seem to interpret the rules differently which is why they are trying to come up with a rule that is easily understood and easily enforced when violated.

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Paul McLester

Capt. John
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What exactly is the afore mentioned NASA bumpdrafting rule? Is it the same for all NASA franchises....Mid Atlantic, FL. Etc. Etc.? I am curious how great the difference is between NASA and SCCA.

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Gatoratty:
First comparing NASA and SCCA is difficult as NASA has about 10% of the number of race entries on a weekend as SCCA. We had 61 Spec Miata entries at Sebring 2 weeks a go and 320 total entries. The lack of a rule in SCCA has to do with coming up with a rule that is enforceable, clearly defined, and yet maintains safety for all competitors (some people don't want you hitting them in a corner to make them hit the tire wall faster). I spoke with a member of the BOD tonight and we discussed issues such as defining a straight (is NASCAR 2, or NASCAR 3,4 at Daytona a straight or a corner?) what is safe for a Miata may not be safe for a GT1 car doing 190 mph on the banking of Daytona. We all complain that the stewards in different regions seem to interpret the rules differently which is why they are trying to come up with a rule that is easily understood and easily enforced when violated.

If it were treated the same as all other contact (enforced through the protest process), this would not be an issue, would it? It is very simply an argument between drivers and stewards. We (SM drivers) want to do it and the stewards, who are volunteers trying to do the right things, say no in the name of safety. I've given up on the subject long ago and have learned to live with this little quirky SCCA issue, as I don't think there's any way to get the rule makers to agree. We need to give our stewards the control they need so that they CAN run safe events, so I'm with Mike on this one. very likely not going to happen no matter how much we want it to.

-bw

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Bruce Wilson
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Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Capt. John:
What exactly is the afore mentioned NASA bumpdrafting rule? Is it the same for all NASA franchises....Mid Atlantic, FL. Etc. Etc.? I am curious how great the difference is between NASA and SCCA.

If you hit someone hard enough or at a place on the course to cause them to deviate from their line, you have committed a 'foul'.

Good rule.

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Gatoratty Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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NASA does not have a "Bump Drafting" rule they have a "Punting" rule.

NASA Rule:

25.4.2 Punting.
The term “punting” is defined as nose to tail (or side-of-the-nose to side-of-the-tail)
contact, where the leading car is significantly knocked off of the racing line. Once the
trailing car has its front wheel next to the driver of the other vehicle, it is considered that
the trailing car has a right to be there. And, that the leading driver must leave the
trailing driver enough “racing room.” In most cases, “racing room” is defined as “at least
three quarters of one car width.” If adequate racing room is left for the trailing car, and
there is incidental contact made between the cars, the contact will be considered “sideto-
side.” In most cases, incidental side-to-side contact is considered to be “just a racing
incident.” If, in the case of side-to-side contact, one of the two cars leaves the racing
surface (involuntarily) then it may still be considered “a racing incident.”

Still pretty hard to enforce and comes down to a judgment call by the Stewards. This would create the same arguments as we have over who has the "line" and whether the front wheel of the trailing car is "next" to the front car. I have no problem with a rule this vague, you just have to accept that the stewards rulings will differ based on each incident and the stewards experience which will most times result in a "no action" ruling by the stewards. Same as trying to define "rough driving".

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Bob Thornton - Race Engineering Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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It should be ok to bump draft, that's my take.

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d mathias Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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In the GreatLakes there is usually a line in the printed driver's meeting saying "no bump drafting", but we usually get away with it. I suspect the flaggers don't call it in unless you're being a d!ck.

Krys Dean
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There should be a "bump drafting policy", so everyone is on the same page and if it is going to be allowed, it NEEDS to be with prior arrangement. You guys know who you want to run that close with, who you trust, and those should be the people you talk to prior to the event, every event. The other drivers need to be off limits, in short bump drafting by prior arrangement.

This is NOT coming from a Steward, I doubt any Stewards would agree (openly) with this "policy", I am just a fan and competitor who loves the close racing in SM.

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Krys Dean

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quote:
Originally posted by suck fumes:
the way i see it is, since we sign the waiver and pay the rediculously expensive entry fees, its our life and our decision so we should be able to bump or do whatever the heck we want. When it comes down to it, we are paying good money to race and it's our cars that we are messing up not SCCA's. NASA's rule is much more sensible with putting the X on the bumper

I don't see the entry fees being ridiculous? You endangering your life is one thing, but endangering my life or another competitors is another and must be considered. I am all for bump drafting, but many don't have a clue what bump drafting is or how to do it safely and correctly. Many people are slamming into the backs of cars, it is unsafe and typically nonproductive. I have heard of at least four rear diff housing being broken from "bump' drafting. That is crazy!
So all these things need to be considered, not just the ones who do it correctly and safely. Then you have those ( not me) who follow the rules and do not bump draft, they move back in the qualifying order b/c they follow the rules. Everything is easier on the surface then when you look at all things that must be considered.

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Bob Thornton - Race Engineering Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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Well said Jim.

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SparePartsRacing
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I am for bump drafting. NASA Texas is VERY good at explaining to the drivers in the mandatory meetings about bump drafting, when to and not to. And all this Mid-Packers talk about not knowing how to bump draft? Just because my right ball doesn't hang as low as others in some of the corners doesn't mean i don't have good car control and know how to not "RAM" the guy in front of me when pushing him around the guy in front of him. (and woman)
Just my [twocents]

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I have found the 4 to 5 shift on long straights to be especially difficult to perform consistently. Sometimes the gentle driver behind me is surprised by this and his safest action is to tap me squarely in the rear bumper to avoid an erratic steering input.

Sometimes I try to signal my lack of confidence in my shifting to the gentle driver behind me by moving my right hand forward and back in a tomahawk motion. This allows the gentle driver behind me to tuck in close to ensure if I miss my shift the contact will be firm, yet predictable. [thumbsup]

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Glenn Davis

Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Gatoratty:
NASA does not have a "Bump Drafting" rule they have a "Punting" rule.

NASA Rule:

25.4.2 Punting.
The term “punting” is defined as nose to tail (or side-of-the-nose to side-of-the-tail)
contact, where the leading car is significantly knocked off of the racing line. Once the
trailing car has its front wheel next to the driver of the other vehicle, it is considered that
the trailing car has a right to be there. And, that the leading driver must leave the
trailing driver enough “racing room.” In most cases, “racing room” is defined as “at least
three quarters of one car width.” If adequate racing room is left for the trailing car, and
there is incidental contact made between the cars, the contact will be considered “sideto-
side.” In most cases, incidental side-to-side contact is considered to be “just a racing
incident.” If, in the case of side-to-side contact, one of the two cars leaves the racing
surface (involuntarily) then it may still be considered “a racing incident.”

Still pretty hard to enforce and comes down to a judgment call by the Stewards. This would create the same arguments as we have over who has the "line" and whether the front wheel of the trailing car is "next" to the front car. I have no problem with a rule this vague, you just have to accept that the stewards rulings will differ based on each incident and the stewards experience which will most times result in a "no action" ruling by the stewards. Same as trying to define "rough driving".

I went back and looked at the CCR. Not being a NASA guy, I haven't looked in a while. I remember there being a rule stating that nose/tail contact was no foul unless the contact caused the leading car to deviate from their line. THAT was a good rule and easy to enforce:

1. Nose/tail contact and both cars continue undisturbed down the straight -- no foul.
2. Nose/tail contact and the front car gets lifted into the air -- foul!
3. Nose/tail contact and the front car wiggles -- FOUL!
4. Nose/tail contact and front car slides wide in the turn or spins -- FOUL!!

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Willie the Tard Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by G. Davis:
I have found the 4 to 5 shift on long straights to be especially difficult to perform consistently. Sometimes the gentle driver behind me is surprised by this and his safest action is to tap me squarely in the rear bumper to avoid an erratic steering input.

Sometimes I try to signal my lack of confidence in my shifting to the gentle driver behind me by moving my right hand forward and back in a tomahawk motion. This allows the gentle driver behind me to tuck in close to ensure if I miss my shift the contact will be firm, yet predictable. [thumbsup]

+1 [Smile] just ask Taylor

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William Keeling a.k.a. Willie the Tard

taylorf Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Willie the Tard:
quote:
Originally posted by G. Davis:
I have found the 4 to 5 shift on long straights to be especially difficult to perform consistently. Sometimes the gentle driver behind me is surprised by this and his safest action is to tap me squarely in the rear bumper to avoid an erratic steering input.

Sometimes I try to signal my lack of confidence in my shifting to the gentle driver behind me by moving my right hand forward and back in a tomahawk motion. This allows the gentle driver behind me to tuck in close to ensure if I miss my shift the contact will be firm, yet predictable. [thumbsup]

+1 [Smile] just ask Taylor
I am the king of the tomahawk!

Some people are more likely to help than others!

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Taylor Ferranti

SamBarnett Verified Driver
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Everyone please vote in the poll on this I just posted. Thanks.

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Brockodile
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I'm for it. Done properly (like most else in racing) it's safe; plus, the added dimension of racers actually cooperating makes it more interesting and less predictable. Few leads are safe from two or three chasers working together. Hits in turns and braking zones and slams which break diffs are not bump drafting.

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Skip Brock
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SparePartsRacing
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Here's a question. If SCCA does not allow it, Why do they seem to allow it at the Run-Offs? Videos all over YouTube with bump drafting going on. Is it that they think that if you made it to the run-offs your good enough to bump draft? or do the GCR's not apply at the run-offs? Or does the run-offs apply a different bump drafting rule?
I'm Just Sayin. [duck]

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quote:
Originally posted by SparePartsRacing:
Here's a question. If SCCA does not allow it, Why do they seem to allow it at the Run-Offs? Videos all over YouTube with bump drafting going on. Is it that they think that if you made it to the run-offs your good enough to bump draft? or do the GCR's not apply at the run-offs? Or does the run-offs apply a different bump drafting rule?
I'm Just Sayin. [duck]

There is not a different ruleset for the runoffs when it comes to bump drafting. [Roll Eyes] There are a lot of places that it can be done at Road America where flaggers will not see or can say without a shadow of a doubt the contact occurred. Come work a few races, it'll give you an idea what we can and cannot see.

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All this has happened before, and will happen again

SparePartsRacing
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I've worked MANY races....used to work Crash Rescue before building my car. They used to double work us workin corners out of the trucks when there wasn't enough corner workers to go around. It does give you a different perspective when you have worked them before instead of just racing without working. I honestly think it should be something ALL drivers should have to do before they get a license is work a corner for the day.

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100 X Nothing killed the donkey

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I honestly think it should be something ALL drivers should have to do before they get a license is work a corner for the day. [/QB][/QUOTE]

+1 ...but for two race days

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LTD Racing
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Longo:
I honestly think it should be something ALL drivers should have to do before they get a license is work a corner for the day.

+1 ...but for two race days [/QB][/QUOTE]

The ICSCC up in the Pacific Northwest requires novice race drivers to work 3 half-day assignments. The assignments include working as a flagger, assistant tech inspector, and on the pre-grid. I went through the program last year and gained an appreciation for what the regular workers go through and what's involved. Met a lot of really good folks there, too!

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In the NE region two assignments must be performed, signed off and submitted with the provisional license before it is issued.

My flagging duty was great. Stayed out there on a cold, windy day hours longer than I needed to.

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Muda Motorsports
"We're all here 'cause we're not all there."

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I chose timing and scoring (and tech) while trying to attain my license last season and I can say without a doubt that it's much warmer/cooler and drier in the scoring booth than standing at a corner station [Smile]

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-Cy
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