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Author Topic: 6 car SM wreck at CMP today
Donnie Barnes Verified Driver
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Well, I probably have enough commentary in the video, so just see for yourself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYFfs3miMrY


--Donnie

Zauskycop Verified Driver
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Whew...I thought you were going to want your car back...glad you escaped...

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Donnie Barnes Verified Driver
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Well, that 1.6 would have been faster at this particular track, but no, she's still yours. [Smile]


--Donnie

Mr. Johnson
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The #35 car qualified 6th which would put him starting next to the green #71 car... Would you drop back a full row because thats what the car in front of you is doing? The #87 car on the far right was a car width out of line and a car length back from his intended starting position. Was the #87 trying to lay back and jump the start? Was he having mechanical problems and dropping out? The #35 car (Barnett) stayed next to the guy in his row like he is supposed to. I would say that the commentary on this video was done without thorough knowledge. This is racing and stuff like this happens, but don't publish media saying that a guy got ansty, jumped the start, and caused a six car crash without acknowledging the fact that he was holding his starting position. No one appreciates other people trying to instill a reputation upon someone else in which they don't deserve.

Donnie Barnes Verified Driver
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So what about the fact that he told the fifth place qualifier that he intended to "jump the start" so that he could get by the 87 car?

There was *barely* room to stick his nose between those two cars. As I watched it unfold I'm thinking to myself "what is that guy doing? there's no green and he's passing." Nobody could expect someone to be coming up through there like that. We weren't at the green, had no idea when the green would be thrown (or IF!), and he took matters into his own hands to initiate a pass before the green and ended up wrecking six cars.

I call 'em like I see 'em. Start lines aren't always perfectly even. That's club racing.

I've got a decent amount of experience, and I've never seen anyone assume they can go three wide before a start just to "get beside" the guy he's supposed to be beside when the guy in front of him isn't at a pace he'd like. I don't think you can make a rational argument that the 87 car was dropping out or anything similar. That's reaching pretty far...

IMHO, this kind of start half way around the track is crap, too. Having no pace car for that long can allow for way too much confusion and spreading out. But it's still not a move I would have done or considered. Best case everyone stays wide and he clears him, but the most likely case is what happpened or they attempt three wide in the kink. Then it happens anyway. *shrug*


--Donnie

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+1 on losing the comments on the video... show a little class, DB.

For what it's worth, if the car in front of me leaves a car width and a half between him and the car next to him at the start, I'd go for it at the drop of the green too!

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Donnie Barnes Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Dan Tiley:
+1 on losing the comments on the video... show a little class, DB.

For what it's worth, if the car in front of me leaves a car width and a half between him and the car next to him at the start, I'd go for it at the drop of the green too!

You can't see the green on my video, but I could see the green and he was clearly in between those cars before the green fell.

The comments are out there now, and that's how I saw it from my seat. Had I been less than a tenth slower in qualifying my car would be pretty balled up right now. Two of my OPM teammates are writing big checks thanks to NO fault of their own.

Looked more like "poor choice" than "one of them racin' deals" to me.


--Donnie

Donnie Barnes Verified Driver
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I'm not removing the first one, but if you want the video without any extras, here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUz58GphLhk

(It's not done processing as of right this second, but it should be soon.)


--Donnie

Jason Owenby Verified Driver
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+2 DB [rolling on floor laughin]

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cooleyjb
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quote:
Originally posted by Casey Johnson:
The #35 car qualified 6th which would put him starting next to the green #71 car... Would you drop back a full row because thats what the car in front of you is doing? The #87 car on the far right was a car width out of line and a car length back from his intended starting position. Was the #87 trying to lay back and jump the start? Was he having mechanical problems and dropping out? The #35 car (Barnett) stayed next to the guy in his row like he is supposed to. I would say that the commentary on this video was done without thorough knowledge. This is racing and stuff like this happens, but don't publish media saying that a guy got ansty, jumped the start, and caused a six car crash without acknowledging the fact that he was holding his starting position. No one appreciates other people trying to instill a reputation upon someone else in which they don't deserve.

You need to read the GCR again. Once you're on course it doesn't matter what happens in the other line or in your line, you don't get to get out of line to get next to the guy you qualified by. You're supposed to stay in line until the green flag drops. From the engine sounds it certainly appears that the white car is out of line and pushing up between the two cars before the green flag is out.

TillerTech
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Isn't this the starters/flagman responsibility to not give the green flag if the pack is not lined up and orderly?

J

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White car went before the green. When the green came out the car in front immediately moved to the left, unfortunately, the white car was already there, having jumped the start. White car at fault.
Cooleyjb is right.

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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More video?

If the car in front is hanging back then he is in violation of 6.5.1.J.3, Moving out of line. Not the first time I've seen someone trying to get an advantage at the start by hanging back cause a melee. Should have been waved!

More video would be helpful.

-bw

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Donnie Barnes Verified Driver
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The start should have definitely been waved, but while the car *may* have been wrong to have hung back, the car that jumped was no more right to have done that, either. You gotta stay in line.

I've been the victim of the poorly done "hang back" in front of me, and I've been the beneficiary. It's racing. But I know better than to jump the start just because I'm the victim, too.


--Donnie

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maybe I'm missing something but, I just dont see the 87 car hanging back at the "start", yes he was back a little bit before the start but it looks like he got back up to the car in front of him before the green came out. It was very unfortunate that this happened several very good cars were taken out on the 1st lap.

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B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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Donnie, my point is if there were two people who weren't in line, why is white car more responsible for the melee? Just because the white car got beside the front car after the green doesn't necessarily mean he jumped the start. Again, more video would be helpful.

-bw

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Donnie Barnes Verified Driver
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Bruce, I'm not sure if there's any video that shows him clearly between the cars before the green (as in I don't know that you can see the flag and see those three cars from a decent angle), but that's the way I saw it from my seat.

I know there's video in the wild from the 11th place car, but it's simply a better view of the wrecking since it's behind me (and that video has a much better view of the rear view mirror of the car). I don't have that video and don't know if it will be posted publicly or not. Someone else showed it to me on their computer and they got it via email.

I'm told Sam usually runs video. Perhaps he was and he can post it. I doubt he was this time, since I was told he was trying to "collect video" to support his side. I know Skip Brock was running video, and he was 10th so his perspective will be different and perhaps shows the flag. I haven't seen his video, but his account agrees with mine and the others behind the incident. I'm also pretty sure there is at least another video or two out there. No idea what will get posted, though. Oh, and I believe Giles was running video, but I doubt you can see Barnett in it since even if he had a good angle of his mirror Barnett would have been in his blind spot. You might be able to see the green and relate that to the nudges, though. Pretty sure he was planning to post his video at some point, but that's up to him.

Word from Sam is the SOM found him not guilty of the protest violations. I have no idea exactly which rules they protested him for.

And I'd like to point out that while I was racing with OPM and Tom built my car, I never met any of the other drivers involved in this before this weekend. Well, other than Andrew, but I didn't even remember that until he reminded me *today* that we had met before (and I didn't even speak to him this weekend). I've got no "buddies" in this or anything. It's just how I saw it. (That's not to say the other OPM drivers aren't likable guys...they are. Just that I barely know them.)


--Donnie

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I'm not sure how many times you have raced at Kershaw but the video comment "They did the green after turn 9, which apparently wasn't such a good idea" is rather off base. SF is way too close to the first couple of turns leading to being on the brakes within a couple of seconds of full throttle while the folks in the back barrel down on you. It lead to lots of pileups (one national we had a start incident in every group).

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Jason Owenby Verified Driver
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Congrats to Alex and George on the WINS!!!!!

sorry to interrupt DB [rolling on floor laughin] [rolling on floor laughin]

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Donnie Barnes Verified Driver
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Apparently it's only SCCA that has a problem with it, because no other body does starts anywhere but start/finish. That's according to track management, whom I'm good friends with.

Doing it the other way lets the field loose for half a lap with no pace car. I contend that's a lot worse. I've got a good many races there, and people with a lot more races there than me seem to agree. I talked to a good many people this weekend, and didn't find anyone who thought this start format was a good idea. *shrug*


--Donnie

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Regardless of the other stuff...I think a better question is why was the race being started on the back straight without a pace car?

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Lance,

Gotta disagree with you on this one. I think a late slow start at T1 is much better than starting at much higher speed going into the kink.

I might even concede there might be more incidental contact at a T1 start if people aren't careful but it will likely be less catastrophic because of the lower speeds.

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Jason, I disagree with you on this one and have 5 impacts, before turn one, on two consecutive race weekends (with the body shop bills to go along with it) when starting at S/F to show for it. There's more distance between the green and the brake zone between station 9 and T11 to let the field sort itself out a bit, than there is between S/F and the brake zone for T1. This is the first real melee I can recall starting at 9. There's always contact, with a start from either position, I'd rather be at 9.

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Donnie Barnes Verified Driver
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Having talked to track management about which groups start where and the significance of incidents and such, I'm not going to any CMP weekend where the start will be at T9. I've done it both ways there, and I'll take T1 any day.

If there was some way to keep a pace car all the way to the T9 start then I wouldn't care so much. But without that, I think it's too easy for the speeds to be too high.


--Donnie

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Steve,

I still think there's more danger in the faster start. If the T1 start is low and slow enough, I think there's no comparison in terms of safety...

A reminder....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO_M1iGp664

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Here's a little more video that appeared.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhVrqOoJ8ng

Looks like he pushed that sandwiched position for over 3 seconds and never tried to back off.

Watching a start like this just makes me yearn for the start of the MARRS season. [Eek!]

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Danny Steyn Verified Driver
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So sorry Brock and others - so many innocent drivers get caught in this kind of carnage - so unfortunate, and so unnecessary.

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quote:
Originally posted by Jason Holland:
Lance,

Gotta disagree with you on this one. I think a late slow start at T1 is much better than starting at much higher speed going into the kink.

I might even concede there might be more incidental contact at a T1 start if people aren't careful but it will likely be less catastrophic because of the lower speeds.

Incidental contact for open wheelers/sports racers leads to bad things.

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Jason Holland Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Understood. But maybe have the production based cars start from the normal start...

J

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learjet
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Just about every driver's meeting I attend SCCA officials announce they will not tolerate any bump drafting (they did not make the announcement at Saturday's meeting)and then they allow stuff like this! I think the videos are clear, but everyone has their opinion. Unfortunatly alot of good equipment was torn up. The failure of SCCA to respond to this just leads to further events like this. I know I will miss at least the next two events I planned to attend because of the damage I sustained.

Thomas Benham
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The real problem is that guy put 6-10 cars and drivers at risk, for a better shot at that $5 trophy. Come on guys, look out for each other.

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Wow!Really sorry for everyone involved.After seeing Skips video,it was worse than I thought.Really unfortunate.Hope nobodys hurt.

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Is that going to really fix things though?

How many guys did this take out?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LF_9ov-gbek

Here is a turn 1 start with a rear facing camera:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oH7T-w72RNA&feature=related

Look in the back and watch the guy on the straight spin off drivers right at a pretty good clip.

Let's put this into perspective... to sit here and blame the starting location for a reason the problem exists is doing a disservice. Asshattery no matter if it's turn 1 or turn 9 start can lead to bad things. You are going to the frame shop and spending $$$$ on repairs.

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Danny Steyn Verified Driver
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Lance you have my vote - position of the start line had nothing to do with this carnage.

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quote:
Originally posted by Danny Steyn:
Lance you have my vote - position of the start line had nothing to do with this carnage.

+1. All of us should review GCR 6.11.1 before each race.

CRB: Cleaning up the second sentence of 6.11.1.D might be helpful.

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quote:
Come on guys, look out for each other.
+2 [yep]

Jamie Tucker Series Champ

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I'm speechless (which does not happen very often)! Sorry for everyone involved; thats a lot of time and money wasted for what most of us would consider a bone head move.

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quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Tucker:
I'm speechless (which does not happen very often)! Sorry for everyone involved; thats a lot of time and money wasted for what most of us would consider a bone head move.

Agreed, there's a reason the white car started behind the other two.... You can't win a race on the first lap but you sure can lose it. [shame]

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So much for the comment on this site that people need to start throwing "Paper" to clean all of this up.

Unless the officials are willing to put their foot down, "Paper is just paper". [nope]

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Posts such as this one point-out people to watch for. Mr. Barnes did us all a favor with this thread. Maybe name names instead of the 'white car'. Public shame is a powerful motivator to clean-up behavior - at least for some of us.

-Denny

[edit: watched original video again, driver was called out by name - good for you DB)

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Disheartening. So early in the season to have your car wadded! I believe the SCCA and NASA rules specify that you may not move more than one half a car width out of alignment with the car in front before the green. If I am correct and that rule had been followed, a lot of unessary damage would have been avoided.
Rick

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I see it being 100% Sams fault. I know Sam, I like Sam, but IMO he has or is definitely starting to get a reputation depending on who you speak to. Some of it deserved, some of it probably not.

We qualify for a reason! One position at the start is typically meaningless over the course of a race.
Jim

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The Stewards in the division can still take action in this case by calling for a 'Driver's Review'.

Has anyone asked them to?

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Lance found the two weekends I referenced earlier. Sad thing is in my search for them, I found just as many crashes from each starting point. I really don't think speed is a factor, if it was, we'd never get through T1 at Roebling Road. There's just more time to sort things out before the brakes. The video Jason linked was a bonehead move by the white car, and somehow Glen DIDN'T get hit by the whole field. Every situation is different, but the results are frequently the same, torn up cars and bad mojo. How do you fix it? Dunno. I thought qualifying better was a good idea, but in the front facing video a banzai move from the 7th row ended in using my third row quarter panel for brakes. What'd I do wrong? That did get the offending driver on probation and DQ'd, but myself and others still had to pay for it. Racing is racing, but if you are in a crumpled heap before T1, you are no longer racing.

quote:
Originally posted by Lance Snyder:
Is that going to really fix things though?

How many guys did this take out?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LF_9ov-gbek

Here is a turn 1 start with a rear facing camera:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oH7T-w72RNA&feature=related

Look in the back and watch the guy on the straight spin off drivers right at a pretty good clip.

Let's put this into perspective... to sit here and blame the starting location for a reason the problem exists is doing a disservice. Asshattery no matter if it's turn 1 or turn 9 start can lead to bad things. You are going to the frame shop and spending $$$$ on repairs.


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OPM AUTOSPORTS INC Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
The Stewards in the division can still take action in this case by calling for a 'Driver's Review'.

Has anyone asked them to?

On Sunday I spoke with the Stewards of the meet. I was told a RFA (request for action ) was filed and that this was not a dead issue. Driver or drivers will be reprimanded.

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Gary Giles Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Here's another video angle on it. I started in the 7th position, just behind the initial contact.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6uxX1aIGho

In all fairness, there's a rumor that there is a video from one of the lead 4 cars that might shed a slightly different light on events (via rear view). I have not seen it, but would like to. If someone would post, I think it would help.

After the race, I was very disgusted and was one of three that threw paper (first time for all of us). I do think the stewards worked very hard on this protest and I appreciate their efforts.

All I know is that incidents like this are bad for our class and racing community. Low percentage moves plus heavy carnage should equal consequences. It does in real life.
[soapbox]

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“Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please.” ~~ Mark Twain

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Wow that view did nothing but make it worse for the white car.

Pat

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Drago Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by pat slattery:
Wow that view did nothing but make it worse for the white car.

Pat

+1

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Lance Snyder Made Donation to Website
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I'd like to see that too Gary as I am not sure where he thought he was going... it sure as hell wasn't between 2 cars at the start.

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All this has happened before, and will happen again

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quote:
Originally posted by Drago:
quote:
Originally posted by pat slattery:
Wow that view did nothing but make it worse for the white car.

Pat

+1
+2

 
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