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Author Topic: 6 car SM wreck at CMP today
Gatoratty Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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+3 He actually hit the green car as he moved over.

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+4 Where was he going? He was clearly pushing his way through long before the green.

TURNINGLT4SPONSOR
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There are at least 2 other videos that really tell a different story. I have seen both and I know for a fact the stewards also saw them before making their ruling. I hope they get posted. What is really refreshing is how through the stewards were in getting every bit of information available BEFORE making a ruling.

Unfortunately this has over shadowed a great, hard, clean race and a first time win ever in any event on Sunday by George Fusner.

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Based on Gary's video there was definitely something going on between the green and white cars. Carl Edwards and Brad Keselowski sneaked in the cars?

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Kyle Freiheit
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quote:
Originally posted by TURNINGLT4SPONSOR:
There are at least 2 other videos that really tell a different story. I have seen both and I know for a fact the stewards also saw them before making their ruling. I hope they get posted. What is really refreshing is how through the stewards were in getting every bit of information available BEFORE making a ruling.

Unfortunately this has over shadowed a great, hard, clean race and a first time win ever in any event on Sunday by George Fusner.

Well, you have seen it, so what is the other story?

Kyle

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quote:
Originally posted by Kyle Freiheit:
quote:
Originally posted by TURNINGLT4SPONSOR:
There are at least 2 other videos that really tell a different story. I have seen both and I know for a fact the stewards also saw them before making their ruling. I hope they get posted. What is really refreshing is how through the stewards were in getting every bit of information available BEFORE making a ruling.

Unfortunately this has over shadowed a great, hard, clean race and a first time win ever in any event on Sunday by George Fusner.

Well, you have seen it, so what is the other story?

Kyle

Better yet, where are the videos?

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All this has happened before, and will happen again

JIM DANIELS
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I see it a bit different.

Looks to me like the car in front of SB was blocking the run and moved left, hooked on SB's RF front and pushed him left into the green car.

Only so much room for three cars and we all know that none of us will be faked into lifting (not that we shouldn't). Seems to me that maybe just holding it straight and not pushing it all to the left is just as much the issue as Sam not lifting.

I think the comments in the video are in poor taste.

What video did SCCA use to decide the outcome?

Donnie Barnes Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by JIM DANIELS:
What video did SCCA use to decide the outcome?

They took every video they could get. In fact, they impounded the *original* video cards in all cases, I'm fairly sure. They wouldn't accept a copy of my video, they had to have my CF card. Which was great, since it was the only one I brought for the weekend so I had to buy another one. I was told "that's racing." *shrug* (And no, we won't get them back until after the time has passed for appeals and all that, which could be weeks if there are appeals.)

As for the comments, they weren't necessary, but they were done still somewhat in the heat of it all, too. But all I said was he was getting "antsy", which I believe was the case. He was jockeying around all the way down the back straight before T8, and it looked very much to me like something strange was going on. Then he started passing before the green, which is the next "comment" in the video (other than pointing out when the green was). The Star Wars stuff at the end doesn't say ANYTHING that could be contentious that I can see.

Worrying about my commentary on the matter is simply deflecting the real issue, IMHO. He initiated a pass before the green. He told another racer before the race that he intended to jump the start, too.

Again, I called it like I saw it from my seat. If there's a better view from somewhere else, great. Let's see it.

But unless there's video that shows him magically IN LINE until the GREEN waves, he was doing SOMETHING wrong. If he's NOT doing that something wrong, there's no wreck. *shrug*


--Donnie

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Donnie, you keep implying that he is the only car not in line, yet others have said and the video shows that is not the case. I hink you need to seperate he fact that it was a f'd up start and what caused the accident, i.e. contat. I see it the same way Jim does. The front car moved into the white car and that caused the melee. If I am very good at starts and end up beside cars immediately after the green, that is okay under the rules we race under. I look forward to seeing the additional videos.

You and others seem to want to judge without seeing all the videos that the stewards used to hand down their ruling. I would quetion why is that? Is there something else going on that we should know about? Bad past experiences with the driver in question?

-bw

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quote:
Originally posted by JIM DANIELS:
I see it a bit different.

Looks to me like the car in front of SB was blocking the run and moved left, hooked on SB's RF front and pushed him left into the green car.

Only so much room for three cars and we all know that none of us will be faked into lifting (not that we shouldn't). Seems to me that maybe just holding it straight and not pushing it all to the left is just as much the issue as Sam not lifting.

I think the comments in the video are in poor taste.

What video did SCCA use to decide the outcome?

was going to stay out of this one till i saw the above comment;
first observation - what is the white car in P-4 doing lining up on the far right edge of the race track with a righthand turn coming up??
leaves open an entire car width to his outside, knowing he will have to fade left to take the upcoming righthander flat and that he has a visibly "antsy" guy on his tail ...
white P-4 then 'fades left a bit' after the green, but the SB car has already jumped the start and is up on his LR bumper ...
but, why shouldn't SB lift if he only has his nose up to white P-4's bumper.
Bottom line; scraggly uneven lining up at the start, SB definitely jumps the green and doesn't lift when the white car up front moves left and closes the hole.
Chaos then happens leaving a bunch of beat up cars.
Only video that could have possibly explained this driver error by SB is rearward from the P-3 & P-4 cars, showing white P-4 fading left a bit unto SB.
Still does not justify the SB kamikasi move at the start. A very low percentage move as you have to fool and move by two (2) cars at the same time. Ain't happening 8 out of 10 times.
disclaimer: don't know anyone in these videos, just commenting like the rest ou you.

JIM DANIELS
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quote:
Originally posted by Donnie Barnes:
quote:
Originally posted by JIM DANIELS:
What video did SCCA use to decide the outcome?

They took every video they could get. In fact, they impounded the *original* video cards in all cases, I'm fairly sure. They wouldn't accept a copy of my video, they had to have my CF card. Which was great, since it was the only one I brought for the weekend so I had to buy another one. I was told "that's racing." *shrug* (And no, we won't get them back until after the time has passed for appeals and all that, which could be weeks if there are appeals.)

As for the comments, they weren't necessary, but they were done still somewhat in the heat of it all, too. But all I said was he was getting "antsy", which I believe was the case. He was jockeying around all the way down the back straight before T8, and it looked very much to me like something strange was going on. Then he started passing before the green, which is the next "comment" in the video (other than pointing out when the green was). The Star Wars stuff at the end doesn't say ANYTHING that could be contentious that I can see.

Worrying about my commentary on the matter is simply deflecting the real issue, IMHO. He initiated a pass before the green. He told another racer before the race that he intended to jump the start, too.

Again, I called it like I saw it from my seat. If there's a better view from somewhere else, great. Let's see it.

But unless there's video that shows him magically IN LINE until the GREEN waves, he was doing SOMETHING wrong. If he's NOT doing that something wrong, there's no wreck. *shrug*


--Donnie

Last I looked the GCR does not require that I lift after the green if I jumped the start but it most certainly says we should hold our line. Jumped start or not, had all cars just held their line there would be no wreck.

Raise your hand if you DON'T anticipate the start? I'm sure that all of you, including the video cars, were already going faster than the pace car speed BEFORE the green came out?

I understand though, I have moved over too when I thought someone was getting a run on me before, during and after the green. But, I did so at the risk of an incident like this.

IMO, not sure what could have happened different. One guy was trying to get a good start and one guy was trying to prevent it. I'm both of those guys on any given weekend..... [Wink]

I would like to see all the videos before I use terms like "100% fault". Maybe it looks different, maybe not.

I understand about heat of the moment, passion is racing. Still was not as bad as Bennett's Lamb slam JK [Big Grin]

Disclaimer: I will try to jump starts and block jumpers in all future events, race accordingly. (no need to speculate on any pre-race rumors)

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quote:
Originally posted by JIM DANIELS:
[QB]I see it a bit different.

Looks to me like the car in front of SB was blocking the run and moved left, hooked on SB's RF front and pushed him left into the green car.

fixed broke code, jd

Jim there was no run, the green flag was not out yet. There should be 2 lines of cars and not 2 lines of cars with one in the middle. Contact was made before the green. If the green was out you are right different story. The white car was out of line before the flag and that was the problem. IMHO

[ 03-29-2010, 04:03 PM: Message edited by: JIM DANIELS ]

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JIM DANIELS
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quote:
Originally posted by OPM AUTOSPORTS INC:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JIM DANIELS:
[QB]I see it a bit different.

Looks to me like the car in front of SB was blocking the run and moved left, hooked on SB's RF front and pushed him left into the green car.

Jim there was no run, the green flag was not out yet. There should be 2 lines of cars and not 2 lines of cars with one in the middle. Contact was made before the green. If the green was out you are right different story. The white car was out of line before the flag and that was the problem. IMHO

I agree, MUST lift and hold position left to right and front to back when no green.

Cliffy Chains
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I think we should self police this, if you are found to jump the start have a BRIGHT orange "X" on the bumper, or other identifying mark. We see jumped starts almost every weekend, and it usually never ends good.... [banghead]

Hope every one was alright, next year come down to FL to Palm Beach, for some nice weather, cold beer and a chance for 2nd or 3rd in the race. [thumbsup]

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quote:
Originally posted by JIM DANIELS:
Disclaimer: I will try to jump starts and block jumpers in all future events, race accordingly. (no need to speculate on any pre-race rumors) [/QB]

dude; that mindset gonna git ya a bunch o tore up race cars, including your own.
disclaimer: unless you have qualified on the front row [Wink]
starting row 2 on back, yous playin with mad dogs and Englishmen ... that have been out in the heat for too long.
[Smile]

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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So you all just stay in line until the first lap is done? [burst]

My rule book says I can hit the gas whenever I want as long as I don't pass until the green flag flies. That is why hanging back should be penalized heavily. Our starting judges give us less than a car length, anything more and we can be penalized.

-bw

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I'm struggling with the meaning of "in line"? At one point in the protest process, it was asserted that Sam was more in line with the front row car than was the car in front of him. Not sure if this is the rule or just an observation. Regardless, makes no sense once you get passed row 3 or 4. From Skip's video, the car behind Sam (Skip) is in line with the car in front of Sam at the start of the race. And if you look in Skip's mirror, it appears that the car behind him is line with Skip. So, who's is in line and who's not?

I can definitely see how the conduct of the car in P4 (Anderson) contributed to incident. I struggle with which one violated an actual rule. Apparently, the extra videos will clear that up. Not sure how you divide up percentages. Regardless, both made very poor and costly decisions.

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What is just so disappointing about the outcome is that now, because of this, there are several very torn up cars, some owned by drivers who might not be able to return because of budget limitations, and some who will miss several races due to repairs.

PLUS there are wives and girfriends who are really put out by this occurrence (and other similar situations), and whose tacit approval of our racing is required if we are to have happy homes.

So the weekend that could have been a great deal of fun for everyone turns out into a miserable weekend for many, and will probably cause further reductions in already shrinking fields.

Guys, we are in this for fun. Sure we take it seriously, but lets not screw it up when all we really want is to have a great fun weekend scratching with our buddies, and having something to talk about over beers after the race is done.

Being pissed off with each other is TOTALLY counter productive to the racing experience that we all seek. Sure we like to win, but not at any cost, and not at the expense of our friendships.

I look forward to my next race, to mix it up, but mostly to re-unite on and off the track with my racing buddies.

PS - I like Sam Barnett; I consider him a GOOD racing buddy, one of my best, and I look forward to seeing him at the track, but from what I have seen so far, I think Sam screwed up. A costly mistake for the others. But I am not going to vilify him. I know I will make my fair share of mistakes, and I hope that I am not the cause of something similar. Knowing Sam, this is probably chewing him alive inside, and I want him back at the track.

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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Giles:
Here's another video angle on it. I started in the 7th position, just behind the initial contact.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6uxX1aIGho


Hmm, perhaps a trip back to an SCCA school for a couple of mock race starts is in order? That was ridiculous. [scratchchin]

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Danny is on point.

Guys SM is the best road race/sport car class racing series that is within reason dollar wise today, PERIOD. Spec Racer Ford may be close, but no competition in the SE. What SCCA class can you run, with as many cars as SM, weekend and week out? Stop tearing the class apart NOW!

Facts if you cannot afford to right it off anytime, you should not be on the track. Run low risk stuff if you cannot take the risk (ie. autox). Folks the risk takers (on the edge, finding 11/10 rather than 10/10) ultimately finish strong. Its ok to say I am not going to go to the edge, just YOUR 10/10's!

As to the flag start, Skip Barber starts there at CMP. Ask them why?

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quote:
Originally posted by B Wilson:
So you all just stay in line until the first lap is done? [burst]

My rule book says I can hit the gas whenever I want as long as I don't pass until the green flag flies. That is why hanging back should be penalized heavily. Our starting judges give us less than a car length, anything more and we can be penalized.

-bw

Really, Bruce? What part of 6.5.1 says you can hit the gas before the green flag? I was educated in Alabama so I may not be able to read very well.

I look forward to seeing the other videos.

Just a question to add fuel to the fire... did that start comply with GCR 6.5.1.F: "The Starter shall be safely located where the majority of the drivers in the field can clearly see him as they approach his position." I couldn't tell if cars in the 5th row could really see the starter clearly. We have this issue at MSR Houston (clockwise) as well.

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quote:
Originally posted by TURNINGLT4SPONSOR:

Facts if you cannot afford to right it off anytime, you should not be on the track. Run low risk stuff if you cannot take the risk (ie. autox).

I disagree with this statement, we are racing for FUN, not prize money here. We want more then the Go-Kart track down the street, but cannot afford to race Ferrari's. We want to race other people dammit!! Nobody's getting paid here, not everybody has fat checkbooks to just pay some dude to fix it for next weekend. We don't race for Roger Penske.

Your statement really rubs me the wrong way on THIS particular thread where the white car clearly has red mist (or at least made a poor decision) and tried to squeeze in a hole that just wasn't there AT THE VERY START OF THE RACE!! This caused people to spend thousands of dollars and miss races just so they can continue to do what they LOVE TO DO--RACE FOR FUN!! [censored]

I also don't know any of the racers in the video, but I hope everybody is okay and can have a beer and hug it out and continue to do what they love to do... actually race cars on track with other racers (ie NOT autox). [Wink]

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quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
quote:
Originally posted by B Wilson:
So you all just stay in line until the first lap is done? [burst]

My rule book says I can hit the gas whenever I want as long as I don't pass until the green flag flies. That is why hanging back should be penalized heavily. Our starting judges give us less than a car length, anything more and we can be penalized.

-bw

Really, Bruce? What part of 6.5.1 says you can hit the gas before the green flag? I was educated in Alabama so I may not be able to read very well.


Oh crap I must have been cheatig all these years, nevermind [rolling on floor laughin]

-b

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quote:
Originally posted by B Wilson:
quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
quote:
Originally posted by B Wilson:
So you all just stay in line until the first lap is done? [burst]

My rule book says I can hit the gas whenever I want as long as I don't pass until the green flag flies. That is why hanging back should be penalized heavily. Our starting judges give us less than a car length, anything more and we can be penalized.

-bw

Really, Bruce? What part of 6.5.1 says you can hit the gas before the green flag? I was educated in Alabama so I may not be able to read very well.


Oh crap I must have been cheatig all these years, nevermind [rolling on floor laughin]

-b

I'm not gonna throw any stones. I'm as guilty as the next person. I accelerate to fill any gap that appears. I play the according well.

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[Big Grin]

All I can say is it sucks to start in the front row, and I'll leave it at that.

-bw

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quote:
Originally posted by Muda:
Here's a little more video that appeared.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhVrqOoJ8ng

Looks like he pushed that sandwiched position for over 3 seconds and never tried to back off.

Watching a start like this just makes me yearn for the start of the MARRS season. [Eek!]

The afore-mentioned video is from my car (Car #61, Skip Brock, starting 10th). Experience has taught me to withhold comment until sufficient time has passed to calm down and gather my thoughts. Having done so, I now will offer some thoughts in the interest of improving the racing experience for all of us.
To save everyone the trouble of looking up the grid on Mylaps and piecing it all together, I will name the players. After all, it was a public event and each of us must be willing to accept responsibility for his actions.
Sam Barnett's name has already come up. Sam and have raced many laps nose to tail at this very track without putting a scratch on each other. I was one of those who threw paper on Sam after this incident and the video from my car shows why I considered Sam the guilty party. The stewards saw other views to which I was and still am not privy. I accept their decision. The protest was not a personal attack on Sam. He was gracious enough to call me to express his regrets about the damage to my car (well, actually, Tom Fowler's car) and I am sure that he sincerely regrets whatever role he played in the destruction, whether or not he was the primary cause. We have no issues.
Another name which will come up shortly is Andrew Anderson. I don't know Andrew well, but he sure can drive and I know he's sick about what happened and I have no beef with him either. I don't believe anyone tried to wreck anybody else. I just hope people can see how the laws of probability and unintended consequences work to turn risky moves into disasters.
So here's scene. 1st row: Gaines and Fusner. 2nd row: Thompson (yellow car) and Anderson (#87, not visible in my vid until spinning begins). 3rd row: Sellers (green car) and Barnett (white car). 4th row; Giles (blue/orange) and Partin (grey). 5th row: Barnes (silver/blue) and Brock. The first 3:50 or so of the video is pace laps (sorry, I can't edit). Because of no pace car, acceleration begins well before the flag. I hit the rev limiter in 2nd gear well before the start. The field gets strung out and disorganized. At the 4:00 mark, note that Partin and Barnes are roughly even and that Barnes, who I am supposed to be beside is well ahead of me. Partin is supposed to be next to Giles, one row forward. There's a car dimly visible through Partin's windshield just ahead of him and another white car (Barnett) visible ahead and to Partin's left, next to the green car. Since all the others are accounted for, the dimly visible car must be Anderson. If so, he is a full position back of his proper spot (He should have been next to Thompson in the yellow car). Instead, he is roughly even with Sellers in the green car.
Between 4;00 and 4;04, Barnett's car moves to the left toward Sellers, who is running straight and true, while Anderson's car is still obscured. At 4:04 Barnett makes side-to-side contact with Sellers and remains that way until the green shows at 4:06 or 4:07 (I've looked at it frame by frame). Meanwhile, Anderson's car remains hidden by Partin's.
At 4:08, Partin darts to the right, revealing Barnett sandwiched between Sellers and Anderson, with Anderson's car angled to the left across the nose of Barnett's. Tire smoke is already showing and the mayhem begins.
So what's to learn?
1. GCR says stay in line until the green. I interpret "in line" to mean one behind the other, two by two,
in two parallel lines. Ideally, this means 1 is beside 2, 3 beside 4, and so on down the line. Starts are not ideal, however. Note that I could not get beside Barnes and still remain in line behind Partin. Unlucky for me, but that's racing and the wisdom of the rule against going three wide before the start is illustrated by the case in point. Sam's a good guy, but he should have stayed behind Anderson even though Anderson apparently let a gap form.
2. Did Anderson force Sam into Sellers during the pre-start jockeying?? Can't tell from my video. If he did, the old adage applies:"Two wrongs don't make a right." On the other hand, maybe he didn't know Sam was there. After all, Sam was supposed to be behind him. Who knows?
3. The start should have been aborted. With cars three wide and rubbing before the start in the third row, the flagger should not have shown the green. In the flagger's defense, I have a theory about this. The backstretch flagstand at CMP is a rickety thing barely eight feet high: too low for a proper view of anything past the first row... and also too low for closely-bunched cars to see. Look at the vids from the cars in the left row and you will get the point. Note to CMP management...
4. As I said in the beginning, nobody intended to cause all this carnage: however, low percentage moves often have unintended, unhappy consequences. But just because they are unintended, it does not follow that they are unforeseeable. This applies with particular force on starts. With so many cars so close together, large chain reactions flow from small beginnings . We all must consider the probabilities, the circumstances and the potential consequences.
5. Regardless of the outcome of the paper work with the SCCA, it is my hope that we all can put racing in perspective and learn to exercise judgment and restraint in the pursuit of something which is, after all, a hobby.

--------------------
Skip Brock
OPM Rental, RE Engine

Seems like everywhere I go,
The more I see,
The less I know.

"Say Hey", by Michael Franti

Donnie Barnes Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Brockodile:
Note to CMP management...

Just a note here that I'm fairly certain CMP management doesn't really like that some sanctioning bodies want to start over there, but it's not in their hands. I was told "they" are the only ones who do it (where I assumed "they" was SCR, but it may have been SCCA in general, I don't know...I was told CCR doesn't do that, though, so it's probably SCR that was being referenced).

In general, if a single body like this wants to do something like that at a track, the track management is going to allow for it, but not necessarily provide any additional facilities to do so. In that case, however, SCCA has been known to do the providing if it's something they want/need.

What I am pretty sure of is that CMP isn't going to spend the money to put a tower over there. And there's no way to fix the other problem, and that is that we can't have a pace car to over there.

I'm too lazy to look up stuff in the rule book, but I know at least some sanctioning bodies say you can't pass the pace car even after it pulls off in pit lane. So why does starting on the front straight result in big speeds? Seems easy to make that a rule and not throw the green until near the stand. Sure, there can still be incidents, but the speeds will be a lot lower and thus the damage a lot more minimal. And that corner complex will spread things out.


--Donnie

Brockodile
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Looking back at my post, I realized there is far too much irony in my avatar. Maybe I need to change it.... any suggestions?

--------------------
Skip Brock
OPM Rental, RE Engine

Seems like everywhere I go,
The more I see,
The less I know.

"Say Hey", by Michael Franti

Greg Arsenault Verified Driver
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"You can’t win a race on the first lap, but you can lose it..."

Drivers should repeat this over and over during the start...

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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Seems like you all might talk about starting someplace where there isn't a ~90 degree angle wall right where contact is most likely to happen, that was brutal.

-bw

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
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Gary Giles Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Brockodile:
Looking back at my post, I realized there is far too much irony in my avatar. Maybe I need to change it.... any suggestions?

How 'bout ole Schleprock?? [Big Grin]

 -

Sorry. Couldn't resist. Good post earlier.

--------------------
“Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please.” ~~ Mark Twain

Keith in WA Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
What part of 6.5.1 says you can hit the gas before the green flag?

I always hit the gas before the green flag. Otherwise I'd be stuck in pre-grid until the green yelling, "I WAS SEVENTH!!!"
[Big Grin]

--------------------
Keith Novak
(Will work for tires)

Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Future Never Has Been

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quote:
Originally posted by Keith in WA:
quote:
Originally posted by Kent Carter:
What part of 6.5.1 says you can hit the gas before the green flag?

I always hit the gas before the green flag. Otherwise I'd be stuck in pre-grid until the green yelling, "I WAS SEVENTH!!!"
[Big Grin]

smartass! [rolling on floor laughin] [butthead]

--------------------
Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

Jsellers Verified Driver
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Sellers – aka the green car or 71.

The incident and this thread are tearing at my heart. I started racing in 2005 and chose the Spec Miata class because of the people and the reputation that it had for being competitive yet affordable. My second race weekend was the Buck Muse at CMP. The draw for me was all the reasons that Danny Styen stated in his post, thank you Danny, as always, well said.

Skip Brock “Brockodile” described the scenario as I saw and felt from my car.

Regarding Sam, I have not raced with him in close proximity; however, I had a great experience this past weekend with him during qualifying. Having not been to the track in several years, I got the chance to go out for qualifying behind him. He provided the rabbit and lines I needed to post my P5 qualifying time. He and I spoke several times after qualifying which was the start of a good relationship.

After the incident Sam showed sincere remorse and came to my paddock area on Sunday morning to express such. It did not make what played out in the incident right but it was the right thing to do. Thanks Sam.

To Danny’s point, this whole incident and thread is damaging to the sport and class that we all love. We need to use this as a beginning to what we can do and what we can change and that is our mindset before we take the track. This is a hobby and all for fun, but when we take it too seriously these things happen - stop, think and relax – BEFORE we get in the car.

I want Spec Miata to be the class that draws people to racing not this incident and thread the reason for the current SM racers to leave.

Spec Miata is a great class with great people; please let’s continue to promote it that way.

Last, a shout out to Jason Owenby and his dad, they were the first people that I spoke with regarding Spec Miata and coached me during my start. My thoughts are with you.

Please, let’s bring back or continue that great reputation of SM.

The people that know me will recognize my sincerity others may not, that’s ok….

Jason Sellers, SM71

Rob Burgoon Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by Brockodile:
Because of no pace car, acceleration begins well before the flag.

Throw paper at the pole guy then. He's not allowed to accelerate.

--------------------
It really makes my week when nobody crashes into me.

Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
Future Never Has Been

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This was an unfortunate incident for sure, but is not a sign of any particular 'disease' in the SM community. Some musings:

1. We are all amateurs and sometimes we really, really show it.
2. It's very rare that someone intentionally wrecks another and our community seems pretty capable of leaning on those who do.
3. We all need to realize that wadding a car up like tin foil, tossing it over our shoulder and walking away without looking back is a sad but real part of the sport. It's why I race SM and not Formula E.
4. We all need to realize that we can get hurt doing this and be good to our friends next to us.
5. We can be critical of the mistakes others make as long as we are equally as critical of our own. We should help those who make dangerous mistakes make fewer by giving friendly advice. Stewards should make this their culture, too.

Let's go have fun.

[twocents]

--------------------
Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

d mathias Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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The take-away for me is - I have no real urge to race at CMP. I vote the SE Div moves one of the dates back to Lowes. If you race there I will come.

By the way - I can afford to write off my car - that doesn't necessarily mean I can afford to replace it.

-Denny

Nash Lawson
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Guys,

I was in P11 on Saturday and have my video on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcAmqpJzefc

I have just started racing and hate to see anything like this happen but aside from this incident I had a great time, really like CMP and can't wait to race with SCCA again.

--------------------
NASA SE 2010 SM Regional Champion

Brockodile
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Nash's video confirms what I surmised from my video regarding Anderson's position. No further comment.

BTW, too preoccupied with my personal travails, I neglected to congratulate Alex and George on their wins. Way to go, guys! Alex, next time we are at CMP, I want you to show me the way around. You still owe me one...

Speaking of winning, my friend and mentor, Sherman Engler, won the Saturday FV race... while stuck in 4th gear from the start. Hmmm, I wonder if I should try that in my SM...

--------------------
Skip Brock
OPM Rental, RE Engine

Seems like everywhere I go,
The more I see,
The less I know.

"Say Hey", by Michael Franti

Jason Owenby Verified Driver
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Got my vote on going back to Lowes.

--------------------
http://www.jomotorsports.com
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Qik Nip Verified Driver Made Donation to Website Series Champ
Loose Member '09 & '10 Great Lakes Regional Points Champion

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We can talk this one to death, but the fact is that the field was not under control and more than one car was out of position. That aside, the fact that the third (?) row went three wide before the green was a train wreck waiting to happen ... and it did.

I feel genuinely sorry for all the folks whose cars got wadded up.
Rick
P.S. Maybe we need a People's Curse (ala Lemons) for these situations?

--------------------
Fortune Cookie Racing SM 60
Directions for use: Race, Rumple, Repair ... Repeat!

Glenn Verified Driver
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quote:
Got my vote on going back to Lowes
Jason lets start the "Rumor"
Lowes in 2011 and Bobby T comming out of retirement for the one race so you guys can race for second again!

--------------------
Glenn
Crew chief Meathead Racing, NE Region Sales Division Race Engineering, The GOLD standard in SM engines, Occasional race slave for OPM Autosports

SamBarnett Verified Driver
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Year : 1990
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First things first: The crash at CMP this weekend was the most horrific thing I've ever seen in my Spec Miata career. The fact that no one was seriously injured or worse is a blessing. Sitting in the pit lane during clean up watching what seemed like an endless number of wrecked cars go by on flat beds not knowing if anyone was hurt or killed was a terrible feeling.

To my knowledge there were 5 videos submitted to the SOM. 3 from the rear view - Brock, Giles, and Barnes, 1 from my car, and 1 from Fusner's car (P2) which show the crash clearly in the rear view mirror. I do not believe the video just posted by Nash was submitted as evidence but I could be wrong.

My video currently cannot be posted because my camera uses a tape, not a memory card. I submitted my tape as evidence and won't have it back for at least 10 days from the SCCA, longer if the verdict is appealed. As soon as I receive the tape back I will publish it for everyone to see.

I got a copy of the video from Fusner's car today and have published it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLbfaFYQZhA

I was protested by 3 separate individuals - Skip Brock, Gary Giles, and Jason Sellers. The protests were combined into a single protest which alleged that I violated 3 different rules in the GCR. They were as follows:

2.1.4 - Driving recklessly

6.5.1.J.3 - Jumping the start

6.11.1 - Failure to leave racing room / failure to make safe pass


The SOM investigated and deliberated from just after the race Saturday until after 11am on Sunday before making a verdict. They reviewed all the videos, interviewed drivers, witnesses, corner workers, etc. They took the issue very seriously and spent a lot of time making sure that all evidence and all sides were looked at fairly. I'm confident that by the time the SOM completed their investigation that they knew more about what happened than anyone else, myself included.

In the end the SOM made the ruling that protests on all 3 alleged violations were disallowed based on the results of their investigation.

I'm truly sorry that so many cars sustained serious damage this weekend and for anything I may have done to contribute to what happened.

--------------------
Race Engineering - Championship Winning Engines
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CDOC

Lance Snyder Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Brockodile:

Hmmm, I wonder if I should try that in my SM...

It may help to keep you out of my gravel trap. [Wink]

--------------------
All this has happened before, and will happen again

Greg Bush Verified Driver
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This does look like 2 wrongs making it wronger.

Boiling down all the video:

The row 2 car on the right side was a full row back, even with the row 3 left side car. We can only speculate on the strategy there. (Wrong #1)

The row 3 right car that should have been behind the lagging row 2 right car was in between row 3 left and row 2 right. It looks like he was trying to stay even with his row partner and had to get out of line to do it. (Wrong #2)

I was always taught to stay in line. I don't think its a rule, but maybe it should be. I know this isn't pro racing but in Conti Challenge you can't get out of line before the S/F line, possibly seconds after the green waves.

The other side of the coin is when a car drops out, I think the column should move forward to fill the spot, not a scramble of cross overs and confusion. You skip over your row mate, but thats racing.

If the car in front of me was lagging that much I would either be ready to match his jump and get a run, or give him a gentle reminder to move up. I have seen both used with no carnage.

Could a better rule have helped us?

Would that rule hurt in other areas?

andrew_anderson
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Region: SC region and buccaneer
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Hey everyone.

First of all, I am very thankful that no one was injured in this crash.
From the videos I have seen, there were some pretty hard hits. I have a sore neck and back myself, but that is starting to get better.


I have waited so long to reply to this thread because I wanted to see all the evidence before I made a judgment on what happened.

It is clear from this thread that a lot of drivers were very angry about this crash. After seeing the first video, I was too, but since I have nearly no memory of what happened during the period of the incident I wanted to wait until I saw more video.


What made me realize what actually went on was the video of George's rear view mirror (congrats on the win BTW!!!!).

I haven't been up front since driver's school, and this past weekend was the one where I finally got all of the Dish Network car's ducks in a row.
During the start, I was so focused on the green flag, that I neglected to pay attention to where I was on the race track. After the green was waved, I realized where I was and moved over. I didn't know, however, that Sam was right there at my rear quarter panel.


The best that I can gather from all of the video that I have seen is that the start should have been waived. Numerous cars were out of formation.
The accident was just that: an accident. It is racing.......we are all human and we all make mistakes. I bear no shame in admitting that I made one.

I am truly sorry to everyone for what has occurred. But this is the risk that we all take whenever we get on the track.

I would like to thank Dish Network for making this season possible for me. Without their support I would not be racing this season.
But most importantly, I would like to thank all of the drivers, workers, members and fans of the region. I do not know of any group of people that are nicer or more generous than the members of the south east region. Every race weekend is like a giant camp meeting at a big camp ground. We all get along, and we are all willing to help a fellow member in need. I feel that all of you are friends of mine.

-Andrew Anderson #87

--------------------
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Little Bill Verified Driver
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Looks like a classic case of red mist to me. This is just my opinion, but the white car is entirely to blame. I would be thinking to myself if this was unfolding in front of me, you can't win it at the start a**hole. I would never want to go door to door with that guy. He absolutely drove into the side of the car to his left. There is no excuse for driving that way.

Maybe I have a different mind set, but I don't see how anyone can defend this drivers action. No one is entitled to the space that another car occupies. If someone gets a jump on you, suck it up, be a class act, and concede the position. If it is at the start, you still have the entire race to prove that you can out drive the guy

These kind of incidents are why I always brought the field to the green in first gear at maybe 5000 rpm. You can't jump a slow ass start.

Im done with school have new job and 99 sitting in the garage, but seeing crap like this makes me think twice about racing again.

Maybe I am old school but I believe you should race with class. Win or loose do it with class.

--------------------
Bill Hingston
SM#03
RM_Div

tony senese Verified Driver
Phew, that was close!

Car #: 99
Year : 1994
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quote:
Originally posted by Little Bill:
Looks like a classic case of red mist to me. This is just my opinion, but the white car is entirely to blame. I would be thinking to myself if this was unfolding in front of me, you can't win it at the start a**hole. I would never want to go door to door with that guy. He absolutely drove into the side of the car to his left. There is no excuse for driving that way.

Maybe I have a different mind set, but I don't see how anyone can defend this drivers action. No one is entitled to the space that another car occupies. If someone gets a jump on you, suck it up, be a class act, and concede the position. If it is at the start, you still have the entire race to prove that you can out drive the guy

Bill,
Bite your tongue.... If you read Andrew's post right before you you will see he admits some blame, the SCCA came to the same conclusion. If a car has a mechanical and pulls to the side right before the green, what are you supposed to do? stay in line and whack him???? No you would do exactly what Sam did, go around him!

Before you go calling people names on this forum, get your facts right.

--------------------
Tony Senese
SM#99
2008 NASA-NE SM Champion
NASA-NE SM Director
2008 PRO-IT SM 3rd place
http://www.nosenseyet.com/coppermine

Andy Bettencourt Verified Driver
www.flatout-motorsports.com

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This one has so many angles. When I think 'stay in line', it means stay behind the car in front of you. Maybe not directly behind, but BEHIND. It's why I often wonder what is the appropriate thing to do when you are behind someone who is hanging back and it puts you in the wrong spot. I usually give them a little bump and that lets them know that I don;t appreciate what they are attempting to do. I do NOT think it's ok to pull toward the middle and improve your position, ESPECIALLY if you have to rub on the guy next to you to do it - when he is in a perfect spot.

So you could say that the Anderson moved into Barnett, yes. But I think the debate really needs to centralize on whether Sam had the 'right' to be there when the green flag flew or not.

To me, that is the main issue.

--------------------
Andy Bettencourt
Flatout Motorsports
www.flatout-motorsports.com

 
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