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Author Topic: 6 car SM wreck at CMP today
Eric Barbaric Verified Driver
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-1 vote to lock this thread.

I've learned a lot from this thread and think that there is more to come.

Threads like this and the supporting video do more to keep SMs from crashing each other than the GCR or stewards ever will.

This scenario could have played out on any track in the country. I know that, because of this thread, I will be more mindful of staying in line and watching my mirrors on starts and restarts.

And if I do cause an accident, I hope I have the courage and class that these guys have exhibited. Yes, their "apologies" are a little weak and tainted. But overall, I think they've learned their lessons... and I think we have too.

Keep the thread alive!

Rob Burgoon Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by B Wilson:
And Andrew's appology was better?

"I am truly sorry to everyone for what has occurred. But this is the risk that we all take whenever we get on the track." Then immediately goes on to thank his sponsors?

Agreed. That one was pretty weak too. A simple "I didn't expect him there and forgot to look, sorry!" would have worked nicely.

(I don't think he deserves more than 20% of the blame though)

--------------------
It really makes my week when nobody crashes into me.

Kent Carter Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Part of the value of this discussion is that it is beginning to focus a bit on the role of stewardship in our sport.

What I'm going to say is not a criticism of the volunteers that dedicate their weekends (and more) to be stewards, but a criticism of the stewardship culture of the SCCA...

No driver should have had to 'throw paper' regarding this incident. A major incident at the start of a race justifies an investigation. Period. I think we all can identify several factors that led to this incident, including the actions of at least two drivers, the decisions of the organizers and the actions of the officials.

Unfortunately, the nature of our stewardship program is to behave as a court and assign blame and penalty. Worse, it seems to be only capable of deciding blame in a 'driver one versus driver two' scenario, rather than as a group.

I realize that I don't have all the facts and I wasn't a fly on the wall during the hearing or discussions, but my guess is that it was decided that since no one driver was responsible, none will be penalized or reprimanded. This is broken.

The starter, Anderson and Barnett should have had their roles in the incident pointed out to them. They should have been counseled by the stewards on the GCR, which if any one of the parties responsible had obeyed, would probably have prevented this incident from occurring. They should be told that they will be watched in the future. If they didn't take responsibility for their actions and consequences, then you escalate the actions. The goal should be education and guidance, not punishment. Punishment should be reserved for repeat offenders and the unrepentant.

Lastly, the findings of the stewards' inquiry should be posted at the track and online at SCCA.com for all to learn from.

[soapbox]

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Keith in WA Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I'll add one more thing about the review process regarding this incident, not having been there but merely watching all the video and reading all the posts.

The angles in the videos each tell a different story and obviously there are multiple opinions on this that and the other. It seems to me that one thing the review process should include in addition to the actions of the drivers and stewards is the facility itself.

Drivers were straining to see the flag. The official with the flag may or may not have seen what was occurring with the cars. Reading and watching what's been laid out here, an additional question I'd ask during the review process would be, "Is the height of the flag station contributing to dangerous situations when starting the race at this part of the track."

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Keith Novak
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The starter can wait until the field is literally right under the flag station if visibility from a distance is an issue. Sounds like that might be a good precedent to set (going forward) at this track.

--------------------
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B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by Rob Burgoon:
quote:
Originally posted by B Wilson:
And Andrew's appology was better?

"I am truly sorry to everyone for what has occurred. But this is the risk that we all take whenever we get on the track." Then immediately goes on to thank his sponsors?

Agreed. That one was pretty weak too. A simple "I didn't expect him there and forgot to look, sorry!" would have worked nicely.

(I don't think he deserves more than 20% of the blame though)

20% for the driver that didn't know someone was beside him, moved over after the green, and caused the chain reaction?

-bw

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
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Rob Burgoon Verified Driver
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quote:
Originally posted by B Wilson:
quote:
Originally posted by Rob Burgoon:
quote:
Originally posted by B Wilson:
And Andrew's appology was better?

"I am truly sorry to everyone for what has occurred. But this is the risk that we all take whenever we get on the track." Then immediately goes on to thank his sponsors?

Agreed. That one was pretty weak too. A simple "I didn't expect him there and forgot to look, sorry!" would have worked nicely.

(I don't think he deserves more than 20% of the blame though)

20% for the driver that didn't know someone was beside him, moved over after the green, and caused the chain reaction?

-bw

20% for the driver who moved over into a car that shouldn't have ever been there to start with. A boo-boo, but very understandable.

80% for the guy who either lacks the mental capacity to grasp the concept of double file, or blatantly cheats the start. Take your pick.

If I head into an intersection at 40mph when I have a green and some dipsh** t-bones me, sure I should have looked before entering the intersection, but the other guy ignored the system entirely. That's how I see it.

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B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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No Rob, moving over into someone is not understandable and a cause of a lot more damage in club racing than jumping starts. Just because SM has fenders doesn't mean that we can just bump into people. Go to Youtube and search on flying Miata and you'll see what I'm talking about. Just because we aren't racing FF doesn't mean that touching wheels doesn't have realy bad concequences.

-bw

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Bruce Wilson
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Rob Burgoon Verified Driver
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No thanks. You're entitled to your POV.

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It really makes my week when nobody crashes into me.

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I too have learned much from this thread, if not about what not to do but of the many different opinions about what we do for fun. I do not know any of those involved either. But I will add my two cents for yet another outlook for some to consider.

1 - This is club racing! We should treat it as such. This is not the PROS! I personally do it for the fun of racing and hanging out with great people. I always err on the side of caution when confronted with a choice on track. I will give up as many positions as needed if my car remains untouched. Some with the funds to rebuild do not share this mentality. They should have a little consideration for those of us who can't afford to rebuild.

2 - "If you cant afford to push it off a cliff you shouldn't be doing this" I personally hate this mentality. While my car is "expendable", the fact that I can't replace it should not preclude me from participation! I should be concerned when my or others' cars are destroyed because someone made an avoidable "mistake" just for the sake of a position at the start! I club race because I can chase my friends on a race track.

3 - Now for "my opinion" on this incident. First any apology from those involved is the right thing to do and should be commended. I was taught in driver school to be aware, but dont drive your mirrors. The responsibility is on the guy behind you to be aware and get around you clean. So at the start of a race everyone expects two rows, not someone sticking his nose beside his rear quarter before the green. So Sam was in the wrong by putting his car between the two guys in front of him BEFORE the green! Sorry Sam you may be a great guy and very sorry for this but you were wrong. No matter how out of line the guy in front was you still had no business putting your car in between them. I believe all of us should err on the side of cation so we can play during the race not take such chances at the start. I also agree as long as we learn from this then lets move on!

4 - I agree with those who feel that SCCA should have repimanded someone for this, it WAS NOT a "racing incident", as someone put cars and DRIVERS at risk for the sake of a position before the green. I understand it is not over so we will see how it pans out. I feel as long as bad decisions are just ignored guys will continue to make bad choices. While some call this a mistake, I feel the the "decision" to put his car in between the two in front of him instead of staying behind the guy in front of him was a bad decision as much as a mistake.

My point is, we should all take a different approach when cars and drivers are at risk for a HOBBY we all love. Everyone should be taught and told to be more cautious and considerate of the guy in front of you. Especially at the start. We should get the first lap out of the way in a cautious fashion and then out race the guy in front of you. The name calling and anger gets us no where, but we should definately give anyone who makes a move like this a good talking too.

For those with the money and desire to beat, bang, and push their way to the front go run nationals or pro and let us reginal guys race for fun. I would love to gat a podium as much as the next guy but I will not risk me, my car or anyone else for any number of positions!

Lets go have fun and try to keep our cars and ourselves safe while racing! Lesson Learned RIGHT!

--------------------
Mike Monaghan
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Tom's Double O Verified Driver
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I've been following this from day one and here's my 2 cents;

There's a lot at fault here;

The white car should never have been that far out of line...

but if the he was...

the starter should not have dropped the green...

but if he did...

racing room should have been given to the white car even if it was occupying real estate that he shouldn't have. Nobody has the right to the real estate under someone elses car!

So why did the starter drop the green...

sounds like the facility may not be set up properly for a start there...

so is it the facility that is at fault...

not really as they have a S/F line else where that is properly set up...

so does it come back to SCCA for using this start point at a facility that isn't set up properly for this...

There is lots of fault here and the blame is not just on one. It is a sequence of events and circumstances that lead to this very unfortunate result.

When I'm on track, no mattter how wrong another person may be I have no right to the real estate under their car. Keep that in mind and you won't have these kind of incidences.

Tom

Keith in WA Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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Well said Tom.

Many factors came into play. Anyone looking at this should look at all of them and what to do differently the next time to avoid a perfect storm of errors from resulting in a lot of bent cars.

--------------------
Keith Novak
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wheel Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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To anyone who says the other cars should have given the white car racing room, even if he was out of line.
Is there anyone who is looking in their mirrors when approaching the green flag? No!!!
Everyone in this group was focused on one thing, and only one thing. The flag stand. (Plus, you would hope, the cars right in front of you). Sometimes you have to drift out of line a little bit to see the flag, but the white car was beyond that drift allowance.
So, he should not expect the guys in front to have a clue about what he was doing. I would expect that most of the guys behind him didn't even see it, until they looked at the video.

TR6
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Here's some idle thinking on my part. Tell me if I'm off base... It seems that with starters, there is a lot of pressure on them to drop the green and not send everyone around the track again. It is kind of analogous to a pilot of a commercial airliner, when a landing approach is not quite right. The "right" thing to do if there is any doubt would be to abort the landing and go around again and get back in line for another approach. The reality is that a pilot is thinking that if he does abort his approach, he (and all of his passengers) have to go all the way around again and what an inconvenenience that is for everyone since it will cause a 20 minute delay (not to mention that he has to explain the delay to his superiors). Planes have crashed because of this mentality.

How common is it for a starter to wave off a start and send everyone around again if the grid isn't lined up correctly?

--------------------
Greg H.
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Randy Thieme
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quote:
Originally posted by TR6:
How common is it for a starter to wave off a start and send everyone around again if the grid isn't lined up correctly?

In one of the two schools I took they had us practice waved off starts. But in my limited, year-long experience either driving or corner-working I can't remember an SCCA club race start being waved off.

John Nesbitt
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quote:
How common is it for a starter to wave off a start and send everyone around again if the grid isn't lined up correctly? [/QB]
It happens. Not every event, but every few events.

Keep in mind that waving off a start carries its own risks.

wheel Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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I have experienced many waved off starts. It seldom happens with split starts. It depends on the starter and on how messed up the group is. I have also been involved in starts where they threw the green and then black flagged a driver who jumped. Very rare to black flag someone, since it pretty well screws the guy's chances. More appropriate is to dock the jumper after the race, when testimony and tape can make the call a certainty. Viewing these tapes, I find it hard to believe they didn't, at least, dock the white car his finishing position, especially considering the damage done.

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I put a poll up in the Rules and Competition section of the forum, but am wondering if we wouldn't save some sheet metal by adopting GrandAm start rules in SCCA, which require cars to stay in line and not improve their position, or initiate a pass before passing the starter stand.

Right now the green flag is a pretty exciting moment, and having participated in GrandAm, it is a weird feeling to show restraint when the green drops, but maybe safer?

--------------------
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If they would wave off these starts, the penalty gets applied immediately.

How?

It cuts into green flag racing time, and peer pressure after the race will come down on the offenders.

This way its a combination of self-policing and the stewards. They don't have to single anyone out, but we will know there was a problem and will know who it was.

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I see numerous starts waved off, this was a fracked up non-start... the green was not out when things started going awry.

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All this has happened before, and will happen again

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quote:
Originally posted by wheel:
To anyone who says the other cars should have given the white car racing room, even if he was out of line.
Is there anyone who is looking in their mirrors when approaching the green flag? No!!!
Everyone in this group was focused on one thing, and only one thing. The flag stand. (Plus, you would hope, the cars right in front of you). Sometimes you have to drift out of line a little bit to see the flag, but the white car was beyond that drift allowance.
So, he should not expect the guys in front to have a clue about what he was doing. I would expect that most of the guys behind him didn't even see it, until they looked at the video.

I agree that we may have to drift a little out of line to see the flag. I also agree the white car was beyond that drift allowance. But I disagree that he nobody would see him in this case. The video shows he was well out of line and moving up well before the start-no surprise. I don't know how others feel but it is my job to be aware of everyone around me, even at the start. The problem is some get tunnel vision and are so overly focussed on the flag and their predetermined strategy that they lose awareness of what is happening around them.

And I'm not siding with either car, just that there were many mistakes that took place here and each step in the process the drivers where this started had the ability to prvent it.

Tom

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quote:
Originally posted by wheel:
... More appropriate is to dock the jumper after the race, when testimony and tape can make the call a certainty.

I have also been in several starts where the start was waived off and I agree is sucks, but it should be done if the field is screwed up. I totally agree with the action you suggest. Waive the start and after the race determine if the driver was truly guilty and should be penalized for his/her action. This would be is safe, it doesn't provide any advantage to the offending driver and if found guilty lossees his psosition. That should keep them in line (oun intended).

Tom

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Some of the folks here may remember Grattan about 5 years ago when they not only waived the green but black-flagged the entire field, and brought us all in to the pit-lane for an impromptu driver's meeting. It was extra special.

I agree with John N., waiving the start can be just as dangerous sometimes.

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quote:
Originally posted by TR6:
Here's some idle thinking on my part. Tell me if I'm off base... It seems that with starters, there is a lot of pressure on them to drop the green and not send everyone around the track again. It is kind of analogous to a pilot of a commercial airliner, when a landing approach is not quite right. The "right" thing to do if there is any doubt would be to abort the landing and go around again and get back in line for another approach. The reality is that a pilot is thinking that if he does abort his approach, he (and all of his passengers) have to go all the way around again and what an inconvenenience that is for everyone since it will cause a 20 minute delay (not to mention that he has to explain the delay to his superiors). Planes have crashed because of this mentality.

How common is it for a starter to wave off a start and send everyone around again if the grid isn't lined up correctly?

According to the leggy strawberry blond T&S person I share my life with, she sees about 1 in 12 starts waved off in the SOWDIV.

--------------------
Do I turn my 99 Hard S into a killerfast SM or seek a donor?

oem steve
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Well now I'm confused since I made a comment about doing a wave off and got reemed by Kyle, your telling me they generally wave off 1 in 12 starts in your division. Seems to me if they did this more often then either the offender would get in line or the racers would need to get together to get it remedied after the race.

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Brian Cates
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I think the longer the starter takes to throw the green, the more likly crap is going to happen.

I have seen plenty of wave offs result in crashes as there is usually someone who hits the gas early and as soon as everyone else hears it, somebody will hit the throttle right behind the guy who didn't.

At Summit Point it is very hard to see the starter and you just go when you hear everyone else go, uinless of course you have someone on the radio telling you went to go.

Early starts very seldom result in crashes, just some cars getting left behind that weren't ready.

I still love the NASA standing starts if you are up near the front and can see the starter and all the cars in front of you. Nothing worse than being in the middle of a 40 car field only to find out that the car in front of you suddenly switched lanes because someone stalled on the start [Eek!]

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Without looking yet again at the various videos, my memory is that the green flag was on the track right. The white car drifted well left, thereby making it more difficult (and maybe impossible) for him to see the green flag.

His drifting had nothing to do with seeing the flag, and, apparently, everything to do with trying to gain an advantage before the start. The start should have been waved off (although I don't know that that's possible in a split start).

I agree with Tom's assertions regarding nobody having any right to hit someone, whether or not the person getting hit was obeying the rules or not. Without resurrecting my thread of a couple of years ago regarding racing room, in which many seasoned veterans vehemently asserted such a right, I find the attitudes of so many racers that carnage is ok to be mind-boggling in an amateur sport. And I find the decisions of stewards more often to be utterly baffling than appropriate (including and especially in this case). Which is why most of us avoid filing protests regardless of the provocation.

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Tom,
You say, " I disagree that nobody would see him in this case."
Please, if you are going to disagree with me, disagree with something I actual wrote. I said, "I would expect that most of the guys behind him didn't even see it". I contend that is probably true.

Also, right before the green flag, everyone is looking at the flag man, with part of their attention on the car directly in front. After the green flag, your attention should be on cars all around you. Unfortunately, the white car made his move before the green flag.

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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I see this as a dangerous conversation. It's not okay to move over at the start unless you know there is nobody there. If not agreed, we are doomed to repeat this tragic incident. I would guess that some folks aren't chiming in here, but under our current rules there is a very good chance that someone can be beside you a split second after the green flag flies. Unless we go to a grand am start, then folks need to understand this.

-bw

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
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quote:
Originally posted by B Wilson:
I would guess that some folks aren't chiming in here
-bw

... I really shouldn't get involved in this, but since I was in the yellow Miata right in front of the incident, I thought I would enlighten the rest of you to the main problem that exists in the SEDiv.

... We are all friends... really. And even though this hurt a lot of the people in our group. We try to work it out.

... Sam is a good racer. Drives hard and will run you clean. I know , I've been door to door with him many times. Sure, he made a mistake , haven't you? I know I have.

... And Andrew, good guy. We had a good talk right before the race. Told me he had some problems earlier in the day with his car and he hoped to have them all worked out. Figured he would find out soon enough once the race started. But I guess he didn't. So maybe he was a little distracted at the start. Probably paying attention to his car instead of what was going on around him. I've been distracted before, haven't you.... I've even started in the wrong gear before.

... So, now for the problem....... How do you penalize a friend? Our Stewards down here know just about everyone that is at the event.
... They joke with us, eat with us, and try to enjoy what they are doing just as much as we do driving.

... So where do you draw the line?

... That's one decision I'm glad I do not have to make.

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quote:
Originally posted by Hotshoe:
... So, now for the problem....... How do you penalize a friend? Our Stewards down here know just about everyone that is at the event.
... They joke with us, eat with us, and try to enjoy what they are doing just as much as we do driving.

... So where do you draw the line?

... That's one decision I'm glad I do not have to make. [/QB]

I understand and appreciate the difficulty of the position of the stewards. I really do. But that doesn't change the fact that their failure so often to enforce the rules in any rational, predictable way causes a great many problems.

I don't like crashes. I don't like the attitude I find so prevalent that we somehow have an inalienable "right" to protect our turf, even if that includes turning into someone we know (or should know) is there. I don't like how so many avoidable contacts are called "racing incidents," and not penalized.

If my car were destroyed in that crash, I can't tell you how angry I'd be at the white car. And the stewards blessed his actions by declining to impose ANY penalty. Where's the deterrence? The only deterrence I've ever seen or felt from stewards' actions is a strong disinclination ever to bring a protest.

I'm sure the guy in the white car is a nice guy. I'm sure he didn't intend to cause carnage. I'm also sure he intentionally jumped the start. There should be a significant penalty, IMO, especially considering the damage to property (and potential damage to carcasses) caused by the action.

If they're not ready to penalize a racer who has screwed up, they shouldn't be in the position of steward. Friend or not.

Teamfour Verified Driver Made Donation to Website
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quote:
Originally posted by Hotshoe:


... So, now for the problem....... How do you penalize a friend? Our Stewards down here know just about everyone that is at the event.
... They joke with us, eat with us, and try to enjoy what they are doing just as much as we do driving.


Penalizing a friend is a lot easier then burying a friend, or several friends.

--------------------
Lee Tilton
1993 Meowta #04
Brimtek Motorsports/ Team Four Racing
Team Four Racing

Greg Arsenault Verified Driver
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My random thought...
Drive an open wheel car for a bit and you won't get starts like this in Spec Miata. Pretend you don't have that sheetmetal 'protecting' you.

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quote:
Originally posted by Greg Arsenault:
My random thought...
Drive an open wheel car for a bit and you won't get starts like this in Spec Miata. Pretend you don't have that sheetmetal 'protecting' you.

I came from open wheel to SM. I think that is why my starts suck. I am too cautious.

--------------------
Lee Tilton
1993 Meowta #04
Brimtek Motorsports/ Team Four Racing
Team Four Racing

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quote:
Originally posted by Teamfour:
quote:
Originally posted by Greg Arsenault:
My random thought...
Drive an open wheel car for a bit and you won't get starts like this in Spec Miata. Pretend you don't have that sheetmetal 'protecting' you.

I came from open wheel to SM. I think that is why my starts suck. I am too cautious.
But you probably realize you can't win on the first lap. And the sides of your car are probably 'clean' through no fault of your own. I'm just sayin...

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quote:
Originally posted by wheel:
Tom,
You say, " I disagree that nobody would see him in this case."
Please, if you are going to disagree with me, disagree with something I actual wrote. I said, "I would expect that most of the guys behind him didn't even see it". I contend that is probably true.

Also, right before the green flag, everyone is looking at the flag man, with part of their attention on the car directly in front. After the green flag, your attention should be on cars all around you. Unfortunately, the white car made his move before the green flag.

Hey Wheel,

Okay, I suck at quotes, so it is the point you were making that I disagreed with.

Let me try again. Your quote ".....would expect that most of the guys behind him didn't even see it"

It's the tunnel vision thing I'm having a problem accepting. If a drivers absolute only focus at the start is the flag as you alluded to, we have real problems. As drivers we need to be aware of everything arounds us - 360*. My point in this particular case, the white car was out of line well before the green flag was dropped and all the cars near him should have been aware of his position. So they weren't aware and this is what happens, but it's not okay they weren't aware just because they were focus on the flag.


Tom

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quote:
Originally posted by Teamfour:
quote:
Originally posted by Greg Arsenault:
My random thought...
Drive an open wheel car for a bit and you won't get starts like this in Spec Miata. Pretend you don't have that sheetmetal 'protecting' you.

I came from open wheel to SM. I think that is why my starts suck. I am too cautious.
Yea, me too. Started my racing in open wheel. Clean starts and not much incidental contact thoughout the race. But that's not to say we didn't race hard. I've raced through corners with wheels interlocked but we never dare touch.

Tom

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Tom,
I agree, that you should be aware of everything around you. My point was that, coming to the green, almost all focus is on the flag, and the car in front of you. That being the case, it is even more important to maintain the two lines, with proper spacing between you and the car in front. I bet that, except for the first row behind the white car, few others knew what he was doing.
wheel

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+1 wheel, you cant be looking in the side and rear view mirrors and watching the flag stand at the same time.

--------------------
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Under powered and under driven

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quote:
Originally posted by oem steve:
+1 wheel, you cant be looking in the side and rear view mirrors and watching the flag stand at the same time.

If objects are moving around in you periferal vision it should raise awareness. The problem is under the stress of a start periferal vision narrows and for some to a point it becomes tunnel vision. So drivers need to be less stressed at the for the start of the race. For some that's just practice, for some that may mean meditating, or what ever it take make you less tense. And there is more senses that just sight. Hearing plays a big part too. Sure it's noisey with our loud exhaust and hard to hear much through the helmets but you can sense changes in the sound around you. So you don't necessarily need to be 'looking' in your mirrors to know something around you has changed.

Tom

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quote:
Originally posted by Tom's Double O:
So you don't necessarily need to be 'looking' in your mirrors to know something around you has changed.

Tom

Use the force Luke....

--------------------
It really makes my week when nobody crashes into me.

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I can go along with that to a point. If you want to learn situational awareness try riding a motorcycle on the streets of any big city and that will make you gain a sixth sense for what is going on around ya. either that or somebody will run you over.

--------------------
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Under powered and under driven

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quote:
Originally posted by oem steve:
I can go along with that to a point. If you want to learn situational awareness try riding a motorcycle on the streets of any big city and that will make you gain a sixth sense for what is going on around ya. either that or somebody will run you over.

Exactly [thumbsup]

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Yep. You have the same connection to the area around you, strapped into in a SpecMiata, with a hard top, window nets, hans device, etc. as you do on your bike in leathers. Burgoon's right, let The Force be with you.

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quote:
Originally posted by wheel:
Yep. You have the same connection to the area around you, strapped into in a SpecMiata, with a hard top, window nets, hans device, etc. as you do on your bike in leathers. Burgoon's right, let The Force be with you.

We absolutlely race in a harsh enviroment. Same connection...NO...but our our senses are still working and do help.

Tom

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I guess we all must be talking past each other. I'll state it differently.

Steve, Rob, Wheel, AFTER the green flag flies, you are okay with folks making their move before they know where other cars are in relation to your car???

-bw

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
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quote:
Originally posted by B Wilson:
I guess we all must be talking past each other. I'll state it differently.

Steve and Wheel, AFTER the green flag flies, you are okay with folks making their move before they know where other cars are in relation to your car???

-bw

Bruce, you have a perfectly valid point. Looking before you turn is SM 101. We just give the guy some slack since you can only spread your attention so thin, and moving without looking on the moment it goes green was a calculated risk. He bet that the SM drivers around him would know how to do a double file start. (oops)

Do you look before you turn EVERY SINGLE time? I sure don't. If I see that the closest car is a SM and is a 1/3 of a straight behind me, and I do a good job in the braking zone, I'll keep eyes forward and turn in without looking since it's a reasonable assumption that he didn't bring a turbocharger and won't be anywhere close to me.

(assumes no corvettes closing fast)

--------------------
It really makes my week when nobody crashes into me.

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Rob,

So your answer is yes, it is okay to change your line (AFTER the green flag flies) without being aware of who is in the space you about to occupy.

Just want to make sure that is your answer.

Second question, When are you allowed to hit the gas during the start, only after the green flag?

-Bruce

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

Rob Burgoon Verified Driver
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Don't worry Bruce, I'll close my eyes and yank the wheel as soon as I see green if I qualify the row ahead of you, just for you [Smile]

p.s. sorry for calling you Bob by mistake

--------------------
It really makes my week when nobody crashes into me.

B Wilson Verified Driver Series Champ
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Crap you saw where I was going with this.

I have some really good starts and would hate to see someone assume we all stay in line after the green until the S/F.

Yes, I actually do check my mirrors before turn in if I don't have a full accounting of all the cars around me.

- Not Bob [Smile]

--------------------
Bruce Wilson
2010 Oregon Region Champ
2010 Monte Shelton Driver of the Year
2010 25 Hours of Thunderhill E3 and Under 2 liter Overall Champion
Oregon Region SM Class Advisor

 
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